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Salvation Cannot be Lost

FreeGrace2

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I believe Heb 3:12, 14, 17-19.
So do I, but it is obvious that you don't understand those verses. I do hope you answered my question about whether Moses entered heaven or not.

Those sheep who follow Jesus obey the exhortations of our Lord and of His apostles.
They are supposed to.

Jesus' words are..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free"..."Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32, 34)
One more time. Being "set free" means to be free from the penalty of sin.

What exactly is the penalty for sin that you were freed from?
Scrip' please.
So you're not aware of the Bible teaching on this??

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

The red words indicate who won't be penalized for sin, or condemned.

The blue words indicate who WILL BE penalized for sin, or condemned.

The green words indicate the REASON the people in blue will be condemned for sin.

I said:
"The word "flesh" and "fleshly" are also translated as "sin nature", which we all still have."
If you believe that falsehood you don't believe 2 Cor 5:17.
I absolutely DO believe that verse. But you don't understand very much of Scripture, from all your opinions and made up stuff.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
The falsehood is to believe this verse teaches that the believer no longer has his original sinful human nature.

If that were true, there would be NO NEED of any commands to stop sinning, because if your opinion were true, believers won't sin. Because as a new creature, they can't sin.

But they CAN sin. Which is why we have 1 John 1:9 and many other verses that command us to stop sinning.
 
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renniks

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Then I challenge you to show the exact words that mean "remain" in either v.27 or v.28 of John 10.

But of course, you can't. Because they aren't there.


How about some thanks for proving that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one believes?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5-
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So then, since eternal life is given to those who believe, and WHEN they believe, Jesus' words in John 10:28 apply to them.

So, from the MOMENT one believes, they are guaranteed NOT to ever perish.

You're very welcome!
Lol, so I can believe in Christ when I was 5 years old, then go off and become an atheist, and go straight to heaven. How is that enduring to the end? Matthew 24:13
 
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FreeGrace2

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To jog your memory, I said:
"Then I challenge you to show the exact words that mean "remain" in either v.27 or v.28 of John 10.

But of course, you can't. Because they aren't there."
Lol, so I can believe in Christ when I was 5 years old, then go off and become an atheist, and go straight to heaven.
Is this your response to my challenge? A rather silly question?

How is that enduring to the end? Matthew 24:13
So then, you have to believe that Jesus didn't really mean what He said about recipients of eternal life NEVER PERISHING.

If salvation could be lost, FOR ANY REASON, then Jesus WAS NOT HONEST when He was quoted in John 10:28. It is that simple.

You believe that recipients of eternal life, such as your hypothetical 5 y/o, received eternal life when they believed, then got all mixed up, left the faith and their belief in God Himself, and God takes away their eternal life.

So at least I know that you don't believe what Jesus said. That being the case, why should I believe anything else you say?

If you don't believe Jesus' very clear words, then I can't trust anything else you post.

Just so you know.

But back to my challenge, which you did not respond to.

I was quoted in post #255:
"This statement proves nothing about HOW to become His sheep. That was covered back in v.9."

This was your response in that post of yours:
"No, but it does explain how we remain his sheep. Thanks for all the additional verses confirming that only believers are given eternal life."

So I challenged you to show me the exact words in v.28 that speak to having to "remain His sheep".

I'll even expand my challenge. Find ANY verse in the Bible that says salvation is based on "remaining His sheep".

Or, if that's just not possible, please find ANY verse that addresses specifically HOW to stop remaining His sheep, or ANY verse that gives us a clear example of a sheep that was no longer called His sheep.

Please don't ignore my challenges. This is how debates go. You need to back up your claims, or reveal that they are only that; claims. Unsubstantiated and empty claim.
 
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renniks

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I'll even expand my challenge. Find ANY verse in the Bible that says salvation is based on "remaining His sheep".
I already have numerous times. I think it's hilarious that you think it has to be in those two verses. And you didn't really answer my question, you just danced around it.
 
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renniks

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To jog your memory, I said:
"Then I challenge you to show the exact words that mean "remain" in either v.27 or v.28 of John 10.

But of course, you can't. Because they aren't there."

Is this your response to my challenge? A rather silly question?


So then, you have to believe that Jesus didn't really mean what He said about recipients of eternal life NEVER PERISHING.

If salvation could be lost, FOR ANY REASON, then Jesus WAS NOT HONEST when He was quoted in John 10:28. It is that simple.

You believe that recipients of eternal life, such as your hypothetical 5 y/o, received eternal life when they believed, then got all mixed up, left the faith and their belief in God Himself, and God takes away their eternal life.

So at least I know that you don't believe what Jesus said. That being the case, why should I believe anything else you say?

If you don't believe Jesus' very clear words, then I can't trust anything else you post.

Just so you know.

But back to my challenge, which you did not respond to.

I was quoted in post #255:
"This statement proves nothing about HOW to become His sheep. That was covered back in v.9."

This was your response in that post of yours:
"No, but it does explain how we remain his sheep. Thanks for all the additional verses confirming that only believers are given eternal life."

So I challenged you to show me the exact words in v.28 that speak to having to "remain His sheep".

I'll even expand my challenge. Find ANY verse in the Bible that says salvation is based on "remaining His sheep".

Or, if that's just not possible, please find ANY verse that addresses specifically HOW to stop remaining His sheep, or ANY verse that gives us a clear example of a sheep that was no longer called His sheep.

Please don't ignore my challenges. This is how debates go. You need to back up your claims, or reveal that they are only that; claims. Unsubstantiated and empty claim.
What you're doing is rather odd... You pick out one verse, and put it above every other verse in the Bible... As if the other verses can't explain that one. I have already shown you from the same chapter, that one must follow and listen to be a sheep. But you ignore those conditions, and suppose anyone who once followed is always saved. That a God hater could be let into glory. It's a puzzling and illogical way to interpret the Word.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I already have numerous times.
Please stop saying that. You haven't.

I think it's hilarious that you think it has to be in those two verses.
What is "it", again? Not sure what you are referring to.

And you didn't really answer my question, you just danced around it.
Maybe I don't understand your question then.

Ask me again, and please clearly define what you are asking.

Unlike others, I love to answer questions.
 
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FreeGrace2

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What you're doing is rather odd... You pick out one verse, and put it above every other verse in the Bible...
No, what is odd is that you think I have done that.

What I have done, and I've SAID so many times, is point out that John 10:28 is the SINGLE BEST AND CLEAR VERSE on eternal security.

But there are many many more. But there's no point in using verses that aren't so very clearly stated.

As if the other verses can't explain that one.
Which other verses? And what needs to be "explained" in v.28? Jesus was very clear.

Those He gives the gift shall never perish. Now, go ahead and unpack that statement, if you can. From Scripture, of course. And not from yours or anyone else's opinion.

I have already shown you from the same chapter, that one must follow and listen to be a sheep.
I'm beginning to think that you don't even know what you're saying. You have NOT shown any verse that says that "one must follow and listen to be a sheep". I know you believe that v.27 means that, but there is one thing that you keep ignoring; the very words of the verse DON'T support your opinion.

What you are basically saying is that listening and following are CONDITIONS to be met in order to be a sheep.

So, show me the exact words in v.27 that indicate that listening and following are conditions to be met.

But, just for humor, if you were correct, I'll give you what Jesus would have had to say in v.28 then.

I give My sheep eternal life, and My sheep shall never perish, AS LONG AS (or) IF they continue to be My sheep.

Yet, Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS in v.28 between the giving of the gift and the result of receiving the gift, which is to never perish.

The point of what Jesus was making is that once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. And you cannot debate this. It's the MOST CLEAR verse in the Bible about it.

But you ignore those conditions, and suppose anyone who once followed is always saved.
First, there is NOTHING to ignore. There are NO CONDITIONS. Both listening and following are DESCRIPTIONS of what Jesus' sheep DO.

Please explain to me how that is incorrect.

Second, I've NEVER said one is saved by following. There are lots of Catholics who do the things Jesus commanded, but since they erroneously think that will save them, they AREN'T saved. Kinda like the crowd in Matt 7:21-23.

That a God hater could be let into glory. It's a puzzling and illogical way to interpret the Word.
Just because such a thing offends your hyper-sensibilities, what makes you think that God is just as hyper-sensitive?.

What you lack is GRACE. That's WHY you think like you do.

In fact, almost 100% of Arminians I debate with over the decades on OSAS comes to the table with the very same ignorance of GRACE.

We are saved by grace. Eph 2:8
We are kept by grace.
John 17:12 - While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. ... While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. ...

Notice who is doing the protecting and keeping. Nothing about their actions.

But, again, the bottom line here is that believing that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish is directly in opposition and conflict with what the Lord Jesus said about those He gives eternal life; which is that they shall NEVER PERISH.

Your view is diametrically opposed (180 degrees off) with that of the Lord Jesus.

That is a huge problem.
 
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renniks

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Your view is diametrically opposed (180 degrees off) with that of the Lord Jesus.
If that is true the same goes for your view...Because Jesus said the sheep will follow and listen and you don't believe that's true. You want to cherry pick one verse and ignore the verses around it... Then yeah, you can make the Bible say whatever you want.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"Your view is diametrically opposed (180 degrees off) with that of the Lord Jesus."
If that is true the same goes for your view..
How can that be true? Our views are NOW 180 degrees apart, with mine being directly in line with the very plain words of Jesus. You're not making any sense.

Because Jesus said the sheep will follow and listen and you don't believe that's true.
Seems you aren't reading my posts, or, you aren't comprehending them.

I already addressed v.27. It is a statement of what His sheep DO (what you claim I don't believe), or it is a policy statement of what His sheep are SUPPOSED TO DO.

You want to cherry pick one verse and ignore the verses around it... Then yeah, you can make the Bible say whatever you want.
lol. Don't kid yourself. You STILL haven't shown any "condition" in v.27 that must be met in order to never perish.

In fact, v.28 is SO CLEAR that those who STILL believe that salvation can be lost just DON'T WANT to understand the verse.

The ONLY BASIS for never perishing is to receive eternal life. That is exactly what v.28 means.
 
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renniks

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I said:
"Your view is diametrically opposed (180 degrees off) with that of the Lord Jesus."

How can that be true? Our views are NOW 180 degrees apart, with mine being directly in line with the very plain words of Jesus. You're not making any sense.


Seems you aren't reading my posts, or, you aren't comprehending them.

I already addressed v.27. It is a statement of what His sheep DO (what you claim I don't believe), or it is a policy statement of what His sheep are SUPPOSED TO DO.


lol. Don't kid yourself. You STILL haven't shown any "condition" in v.27 that must be met in order to never perish.

In fact, v.28 is SO CLEAR that those who STILL believe that salvation can be lost just DON'T WANT to understand the verse.

The ONLY BASIS for never perishing is to receive eternal life. That is exactly what v.28 means.
Curious how you dance around this one?
,"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
 
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FreeGrace2

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Curious how you dance around this one?
I'll bet you cannot explain how I've danced.

,"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
How does this support anything you've posted?

I highlighted in red the key phrase. Probably you think it refers to eternity in hell, but you'd be quite wrong.

Peter is comparing the state of the person before salvation to that person's condition (state) after becoming "again entangled in the defilements of the world".

iow, those believers who do become entangled in the world's defilements will face God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.).

But I haven't yet met an Arminian who understands biblical divine discipline. For them, the only thing they think of concerning God's discipline is the lake of fire.

Kinda like a human father who disciplines his kids by killing them. No loving kindness in that.

And, don't forget what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life: they shall never perish.

Time to get on board with the truth.
 
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renniks

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I'll bet you cannot explain how I've danced.


How does this support anything you've posted?

I highlighted in red the key phrase. Probably you think it refers to eternity in hell, but you'd be quite wrong.

Peter is comparing the state of the person before salvation to that person's condition (state) after becoming "again entangled in the defilements of the world".

iow, those believers who do become entangled in the world's defilements will face God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.).

But I haven't yet met an Arminian who understands biblical divine discipline. For them, the only thing they think of concerning God's discipline is the lake of fire.

Kinda like a human father who disciplines his kids by killing them. No loving kindness in that.

And, don't forget what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life: they shall never perish.

Time to get on board with the truth.
They have turned back from the way of righteousness. Now, we probably agree that righteousness is imputed to us by Christ, so it's actually not our righteousness. But obviously, we can turn away from it. If we do, we sure as hell exists, had better be repenting, because without that wedding garment we are not going to the wedding feast.
 
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Phil W

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BCsenior said:
Hebrews 3 & 4 teach us >>> disobedience proves unbelief.
vvv
----------------------Do some people here care? No.

Phil, could you answer just one question for me?
Did Moses enter heaven or not?
As Moses appeared to Jesus on the mount, in Matt 17, it would seem so.
But only because the Law supplied ways for atonement for sin.

Did Moses enter into the promised land?
No.
The promised land was the precursor, or "picture" of heaven.
Because of Moses' unbelief, he wasn't allowed to experience the promise.
How was his unbelief manifested?
By disobedience.
 
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Phil W

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I said:
"Your view is diametrically opposed (180 degrees off) with that of the Lord Jesus."

How can that be true? Our views are NOW 180 degrees apart, with mine being directly in line with the very plain words of Jesus. You're not making any sense.


Seems you aren't reading my posts, or, you aren't comprehending them.

I already addressed v.27. It is a statement of what His sheep DO (what you claim I don't believe), or it is a policy statement of what His sheep are SUPPOSED TO DO.


lol. Don't kid yourself. You STILL haven't shown any "condition" in v.27 that must be met in order to never perish.

In fact, v.28 is SO CLEAR that those who STILL believe that salvation can be lost just DON'T WANT to understand the verse.

The ONLY BASIS for never perishing is to receive eternal life. That is exactly what v.28 means.
I don't think we are going to agree on things because you feel the disobedient are believers.
That sinners are followers of Christ/the Good Shepherd.
How come your brand of believer doesn't think God is worthy of continuous, unbroken love and servitude?
Your doctrine is making it easy for some to take the mark of the beast without any qualms.
 
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FreeGrace2

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They have turned back from the way of righteousness. Now, we probably agree that righteousness is imputed to us by Christ, so it's actually not our righteousness. But obviously, we can turn away from it. If we do, we sure as hell exists, had better be repenting, because without that wedding garment we are not going to the wedding feast.
Well, you do have a knack for conflating a lot of Scripture in a single statement. But not for grasping Scripture.

Yes, a believer can turn away from faith. Jesus made that clear.

He also made clear that those He has given the gift of eternal life shall never perish.

Do the math. It's real simple. 1 + 1 = 2.

No believer will never be condemned.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Condemnation is for all who have not believed. Notice the tense here. It's clearly about those who "have not believed". That means ever.

iow, those who have believed will not be condemned. Which aligns with John 10:28.
 
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FreeGrace2

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As Moses appeared to Jesus on the mount, in Matt 17, it would seem so.
But only because the Law supplied ways for atonement for sin.

Did Moses enter into the promised land?
No.
The promised land was the precursor, or "picture" of heaven.
Because of Moses' unbelief, he wasn't allowed to experience the promise.
How was his unbelief manifested?
By disobedience.
First you say "it would seem so" to the question of whether Moses entered heaven.

But then you waffled and equated the promised land with a picture of heaven, of which Moses wasn't allowed to enter.

So, please quit waffling and give a straight answer. Recall that Moses' disobedience was described as "unbelief" in:

Num 20:12 - But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.

I hope you realize that the red words in these verses speak of 'unbelief'.

So, given what Her 3:19 says; " So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.", did Moses enter heaven or not?

I hope you see your conundrum.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I don't think we are going to agree on things because you feel the disobedient are believers.
First, I don't "feel" anything. But I know quite a bit. And I do know what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life. They shall never perish.

But you have a totally opposite opinion, since you believe (maybe "feel") that some recipients of eternal life can and will perish.

That sinners are followers of Christ/the Good Shepherd.
How come your brand of believer doesn't think God is worthy of continuous, unbroken love and servitude?
I don't have a "brand" of believers. Those are rather silly words.

What I know is that all humans retain their human natures, from which they still sin. They have their sinful nature, the one they are born with, and a new nature, the one they are born again with. The new nature cannot sin (1 John 3:9), but the old nature continues to sin.

So, the issue is this: which nature is the believer functioning from? But I've never met an Arminian who understands any of this.

When a believer is in fellowship with the Lord, and filled with the Spirit, they WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH. Gal 5:16

I cannot imagine how someone with your views understands Gal 5:16.

Your doctrine is making it easy for some to take the mark of the beast without any qualms.
Again, your conclusions about what I believe is totally wrong. Those who take the mark will end up in the lake of fire. Period. So, because of what Jesus said in John 10:28, no believer will take the mark.

It's very possible that believers in the Tribulation may lose faith, etc. So I believe that the various judgments from God will remove them from life. Lots of people will die in these judgments. The mark of the beast occurs during the second half of the Tribulation. However, by the end of the first half, the earth will have experienced both all 7 seal judgments and all 7 trumpet judgments.

Some of God's divine discipline to His children include weakness, sickness and physical death. Paul said so in 1 Cor 11:30.

I have no doubt that all unfaithful believers during the Tribulation will be removed before the mark is given.

So, NO believers will take the mark.

The problem with your sinless views is that the Bible contradicts it. Again, Paul wrote in the PRESENT TENSE in Romans 7. And it wasn't some "historical present". And you haven't shown that it is. Just because there is such a thing as a historical present doesn't permit anyone to claim that Romans 7 was written in that tense.

1 John 1-
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

The truth is not in you, based on v.8.
 
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renniks

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Well, you do have a knack for conflating a lot of Scripture in a single statement. But not for grasping Scripture.

Yes, a believer can turn away from faith. Jesus made that clear.

He also made clear that those He has given the gift of eternal life shall never perish.

Do the math. It's real simple. 1 + 1 = 2.

No believer will never be condemned.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Condemnation is for all who have not believed. Notice the tense here. It's clearly about those who "have not believed". That means ever.

iow, those who have believed will not be condemned. Which aligns with John 10:28.
John 3:18, whoever believes, present tense, is not condemned, present tense, whoever does not believe, present tense, Stands already condemned, present tense... Seeing a pattern here?
 
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FreeGrace2

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John 3:18, whoever believes, present tense, is not condemned, present tense, whoever does not believe, present tense, Stands already condemned, present tense... Seeing a pattern here?
I guess you don't to see the clear pattern in these 2 verses that I just shared:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Condemnation is for those who "have not believed". Got it?

If a person has EVER believed, then it cannot be said of them that they "have not believed".

So you don't have a point.

And these verses accompany what Jesus said in John 10:28. That those given eternal life shall never perish. They will not be condemned.
 
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jerry kelso

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Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts the lifestyle of believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkenness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Now, some will argue that the word “sleep” in 1 Thess 5 refers to physical death, just as Paul used it in the previous chapter:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is clear that in the context of 1 Thess 4, “falling asleep” refers to physical death. But, in the next chapter, the context isn’t about who is physically alive vs who is physically dead, as claimed by Arminians, but rather, the context is about the believer’s lifestyle, as the comparisons clearly show.

However, here are passages that also use the word “sleep” as a metaphor for lifestyle:

Rom 13:11:14

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

So, how would an OSNAS type explain Paul’s command to ‘wake up from your slumber”, if sleeping is literal? Impossible.

Eph 5:12-16

12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. 14 This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” 15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

It’s clear that waking up is in reference to one’s lifestyle; “how you live” from v.15.

Rev 3:1-3

1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Again, the context is clear: being “dead” or “alive” is in the context of lifestyle.

Rev 16:15

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Again, "staying awake” is in reference to lifestyle (going naked and be exposed). By “staying awake”, we will “not go naked and be shamefully exposed”.

So, 1 Thess 5:9-10 is clear.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

God has destined the believer for salvation. Therefore, “whether we are awake or sleep”, the promise is CLEAR: “we WILL LIVE together with Him”.

This isn’t to defend a sinful lifestyle in any way. This is, rather, to defend the biblical teaching that one’s behavior/lifestyle doesn’t determine one’s eternal destiny.

One’s eternal destiny is sealed by whether or not one has put their trust in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, for the gift of eternal life.

On that basis alone, the believer shall NEVER perish.

John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall NEVER PERISH.

freegrace2,

1. Those that sleep and are drunk are unbelievers.
Christians are not asleep as unbelievers are.
Therefore whether we wake or sleep has to do with not destined for wrath but obtaining salvation from that wrath. It has nothing to do with lifestyle in the immediate context.
It is true that believers are obedient that go to Heaven but this has nothing to do with proving OSAS.

2. John 10:28 is not the complete context of that chapter.
Verse 27 is the condition that his sheep hear his voice and follow him.
Jesus was talking to Jews who were backslidden and out of covenant with God.
They also had the Mosaic covenant about the land Genesis 12-15 and the Davidic Covenant 2 Samuel 7:13-16, 1 Chronicles 28:1-7.
Both of these are unconditional covenants in receiving the land and the Kingdom of Heaven on earth that Jesus preached and that Isaiah said they will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4.
The condition to receiving the unconditional covenants was for all Israel to be saved. They instead rejected him then and still do and will eventually all be saved Romans’ 11:25-29 for the gifts and callings are without repentance. Those gifts and callings are the Mosaic and Davidic Covenants concerning the physical land and bless the physical kingdom.
This is why when this happens that no one will snatch them out of the Fathers hand. This is the full context.

3. Eternal life is an eternal substance but that doesn’t prove that eternal possession is guaranteed because man has a free will Joshua 24:15 and can backslide which Israel did many times.
In Moses day they all were baptized under the cloud and the sea but in the days of Korah they sinned and met sin’s judgement spiritually and physically.
Acts 2:44 shows that Ananias and Sapphira were part of those that believed and had all things in common. Yet they lied to the Holy Ghost and died in their footsteps.
Just as much as one can be saved eternally they can lose their salvation. It’s a possibility but not a big probability. Jerry Kelso
 
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