Salvation by Works

[benedictaoo]

You mean we are all Co-Savers? Goodness, you might shock some people with that statement!

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

This is the prayer that Christ taught us that we pray us at Mass before the Throne during the offering of the sacrifice.

Seems pretty straightforward and clear to me. This atonement (forgiveness of sins) is only as good as our own willingness to forgive others.

The New Covenant we entered into with God, requires that we forgive others.

So in a nutshell, those are the works we must do.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

This is the prayer that Christ taught us that we pray us at Mass before the Throne during the offering of the sacrifice.

Seems pretty straightforward and clear to me. This atonement (forgiveness of sins) is only as good as our own willingness to forgive others.

The New Covenant we entered into with God, requires that we forgive others.

So in a nutshell, those are the works we must do.

The Sermon on the Mount has the works that we must do...and just in case anyone takes it wrong...we can't do those without God inspiring us and helping us to do them. It is God in us that does them.

 

[Miss Shelby]

df if you agree with me stop arguing with me. and stop calling me a calvinsist.

 

[geocajun]

And respectfully I will tell you again, there is nothing you can do on your own power that's going to save you. Grace enables us to choose, but we can choose to not follow it. But a work is not necessary for salvation. I am not desribing calvisism, thank you. It is by grace you are saved through faith, not of works so no man can boast. Do we have to choose to cooperate with the grace, yes. But were it not for grace, that choice would not exist.

Sola Gratia.

 

[geocajun]

Reluctantly geo I have to admit, on this subject we can learn a lot from our Protestant friends.

Based on the answers to this poll, where the majority have said "Faith + Works", you are absolutely right. I've even seen paid catholic apologists make that mistake.

 

[benedictaoo]

Based on the answers to this poll, where the majority have said "Faith + Works", you are absolutely right. I've even seen paid catholic apologists make that mistake.

If we want to get hung up on technicalities.

We are required to do certain works of mercy according to our state in life. The bible is totally clear.

We are to do these things. We are to show God's mercy to other ppl in many different ways. Spiritual and corporal.

If we say we have a share in God's own life and we ignore other ppl's needs, then Jesus will say, I never knew you. meaning we really weren't sharing in God's life of grace. IOW, our faith was "dead."

If we say we have a share in God's own divine life, we can not ignore our fellow human beings who are in need.

And we are to help them out of love, not because there is something like salvtion in it for us.

So I don't care how one words it.

Faith, belief in Jesus as our savior will not be a living (saving) faith, if we lack in showing mercy towards our neighbor.

 

[Rebekka]

If we want to get hung up on technicalities.

We are required to do certain works of mercy according to our state in life. The bible is totally clear.

We are to do these things. We are to show God's mercy to other ppl in many different ways. Spiritual and corporal.

If we say we have a share in God's own life and we ignore other ppl's needs, then Jesus will say, I never knew you. meaning we really weren't sharing in God's life of grace. IOW, our faith was "dead."

If we say we have a share in God's own divine life, we can not ignore our fellow human beings who are in need.

And we are to help them out of love, not because there is something like salvtion in it for us.

So I don't care how one words it.

Faith, belief in Jesus as our savior will not be a living (saving) faith, if we lack in showing mercy towards our neighbor.

I agree. And I think most if not all in this thread agree too, even though you may have voted differently in the poll.

 

[Annabel Lee]

If we say we have a share in God's own divine life, we can not ignore our fellow human beings who are in need.

And we are to help them out of love, not because there is something like salvtion in it for us.

So I don't care how one words it.

Faith, belief in Jesus as our savior will not be a living (saving) faith, if we lack in showing mercy towards our neighbor.

That's it right there.

 

[geocajun]

If we want to get hung up on technicalities.

We are required to do certain works of mercy according to our state in life. The bible is totally clear.

We aren't required to do them to become saved (justified). Failure to do things may result in our losing salvation, but we didn't do anything to be saved.
That isn't a technicality, it is a proper representation of our churches teaching.

Do you see the difference? We aren't saved by faith + works. We can lose our salvation due to lack of works, but we aren't saved by our works.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

We aren't required to do them to become saved (justified). Failure to do things may result in our losing salvation, but we didn't do anything to be saved.
That isn't a technicality, it is a proper representation of our churches teaching.

Do you see the difference? We aren't saved by faith + works. We can lose our salvation due to lack of works, but we aren't saved by our works.

Correct.

geo is making the distinction between initial justification and ultimate salvation.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Based on the answers to this poll, where the majority have said "Faith + Works", you are absolutely right. I've even seen paid catholic apologists make that mistake.

For the record, I choose that option because "cooperation with grace alone" was not an option.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

df if you agree with me stop arguing with me. and stop calling me a calvinsist.

I never called you calvinist silly.

 

[benedictaoo]

We aren't required to do them to become saved (justified). Failure to do things may result in our losing salvation, but we didn't do anything to be saved.
That isn't a technicality, it is a proper representation of our churches teaching.

Do you see the difference? We aren't saved by faith + works. We can lose our salvation due to lack of works, but we aren't saved by our works.

It never said it was in order to be justified.

I know this argument you like to have and you are hung up on the technicality.

I know that we don't need any works in order to be baptized, and that technically we don't need works in a strict sense... that a new born baptized baby or adult who does no works at all will be saved because of grace if he were to die on the spot.

That is technically true but for the majority of us who have been baptized and who have been given reason and many years upon the earth... in order to be saved, we need to show mercy or mercy will not be shown to us when we meet the Lord. In that (more likely to be our own scenario) sense, yea, we need works.

I know, you know, redemption and actual salvtion are not one in the same.

No one needs works in order to be redeemed but in order to be saved in the end, the large majority of us will need works to be saved because our lives will continue on after we have been redeemed.

 

[benedictaoo]

Correct.

geo is making the distinction between initial justification and ultimate salvation.

Yeah I know but he doesn't have to because that is not a point i ever argued in the first place.

He just likes trying to find error in whatever it is I say.

Technically, no a person does not need any works what so ever to be saved. All they need is baptism...

but guess what?

Not all of us are going to drop dead after our re birth, we are going to live many years and if we are cognitive, if we aren't clinically insane where we can't know right from wrong, we are required to do the works of mercy because that is how they will know we are Christians, that is how the world will come to believe.

Why do you think we don't read about salvation for babies, children and mentally impaired folks? Because they don't need works.

The bible was written for us, the one who are the work-ers those in the fields, we are to bring God's salvation to the ends of the earth, the ones who are to be Christ's witnesses.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Yeah I know but he doesn't have to because that is not a point i ever argued in the first place.

He just likes trying to find error in whatever it is I say.

Technically, no a person does not need any works what so ever to be saved. All they need is baptism...

but guess what?

Not all of us are going to drop dead after our re birth, we are going to live many years and if we are cognitive, if we aren't clinically insane where we can't know right from wrong, we are required to do the works of mercy because that is how they will know we are Christians, that is how the world we come to believe.

Why do you think we don't read about salvation for babies, children and mentally impaired folks? Because they don't need works.

The bible was written for us, the one who are the work-ers those in the fields, we are to bring God's salvation to the ends of the earth, the ones who are to be Christ's witnesses.

Correct.

 

[Miss Shelby]

We aren't required to do them to become saved (justified). Failure to do things may result in our losing salvation, but we didn't do anything to be saved.
That isn't a technicality, it is a proper representation of our churches teaching.

Do you see the difference? We aren't saved by faith + works. We can lose our salvation due to lack of works, but we aren't saved by our works.

didja hear that DF? Your chosen modern day Church Father agrees with me, too.

And you told me I sounded like a calvinist that was close enough.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

didja hear that DF? Your chosen modern day Church Father agrees with me, too.

And you told me I sounded like a calvinist that was close enough.

I said that you seemed to be talking about irresistible grace for one part of your argument, which is a Calvinist heresy.

You then cleared it up.

There was no accusation from me.

PS

I don't disagree...but he is talking about initial justification, not ultimate salvation, which do require works (assisted by grace.)

 

[namericanboy]

Originally Posted by geo
We aren't required to do them to become saved (justified). Failure to do things may result in our losing salvation, but we didn't do anything to be saved.
That isn't a technicality, it is a proper representation of our churches teaching.

Do you see the difference? We aren't saved by faith + works. We can lose our salvation due to lack of works, but we aren't saved by our works.

This guys works were toast but is seems he made it.....Note WORKS are what is being burned..

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day( It will occur on the day of judgment) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

 

[Miss Shelby]

I don't disagree...but he is talking about initial justification, not ultimate salvation, which do require works (assisted by grace.)

impossible if not for grace.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

impossible if not for grace.

I believe the quote was "Stop arguing with me if you agree with me!"