Salvation by Works

[Miss Shelby]

Salvation is by both faith and works.

Is not. Sola Gratia we are not saved according to what we do but our works sanctify us and we grow in Christ due to them. If there is a baptized Christian out there who thinks they can rest easy on their laurels they are wrong, and they are not Christian. by their fruits you shall know them, but whatsaves is grace.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Is not. Sola Gratia we are not saved according to what we do but our works sanctify us and we grow in Christ due to them. If there is a baptized Christian out there who thinks they can rest easy on their laurels they are wrong, and they are not Christian. by their fruits you shall know them, but whatsaves is grace.

Eh...slight correction, if I may...

Our cooperation with that grace is required, and it does matter if we have cooperated with it or not. The sheep and the goats parable comes to mind.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Of course as Paul says... it's not a license to sin.

But striving for perfection by being perfect, obeying the law, never slipping up, never falling down is not only ridiculously unrealistic but it is working for salvation and it is exhausting. It's purely OT.

We are no longer under that. We are under grace.

And that means, all of our sins have been forgiven, past present and future by Christ our High Priest offering Himself for our sins. We are not to stress over our sins but instead trust in God's mercy. He forgave us when Christ entered heaven as our High Priest. We have to trust in that.

So it's not a dwelling on them deal. It's a trusting in Christ that He has rejoined us back to God who has accepted His blood for our sins and we are sharing in His life. So no sin can keep us from Him.

The Pharisees believed that sin, not keeping the law could keep you from God. Not true, sin can not keep us from God. Christ paid for them.

Rebellion and rejection is what keeps us from God. That is called mortal sin. When we sin out of rebellion and rejection we can lose our salvation and we need to go to confession and be rejoined back to God becuase we have sinned against God, against our own gift of grace.

Does that makes sense?

Yes, and I agree that it would make one neurotic to try and be perfect and fear hell is the consequence of not being perfect.

 

[benedictaoo]

Yes, and I agree that it would make one neurotic to try and be perfect and fear hell is the consequence of not being perfect.

It would make one totally give up and think God is a mean ogler and not the beautiful loving merciful Father he really is.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

The Church teaches that faith with out works is dead and a dead faith can not save you.

We as a ppl were not redeemed by anything we as a ppl have done.

We as an individual were not redeemed by any work that we did.

We, personal and general have been redeemed by Christ offering Himself as an atonement for our sin, personal and original (general).

A person is saved by the grace this wrought. They are incorporated into this mystery through re birth.

Now that a person has been saved by grace, through faith in that atonement made as payment for their sins and not any works of perfection are they 'saved'.

But that faith that they have in that atonement must be a living faith in order for it to save.

What is a living faith? James clearly tells us. One that does good works, both spiritual and corporal works of mercy.

Because where there is mercy shown, mercy will be given.

Because the way to be like God is to be merciful as He is.

Good works is not staying away from sin and it's not not following the commandments. That was the OT law, we are not under the law but grace.

We are now partakers of the divine life, so that means we are like God and if we truly have accepted Christ as Lord and savior, ie accepted His atonement for our sins, then we will not be pharisees striving to follow the law puffed up, full of ourselves but we will be like God, we will be merciful.

That is the work we are to do if the faith we have in the atonement for our sins will be alive and not dead.

Of course as Paul says... it's not a license to sin.

But striving for perfection by being perfect, obeying the law, never slipping up, never falling down is not only ridiculously unrealistic but it is working for salvation and it is exhausting. It's purely OT.

We are no longer under that. We are under grace.

And that means, all of our sins have been forgiven, past present and future by Christ our High Priest offering Himself for our sins. We are not to stress over our sins but instead trust in God's mercy. He forgave us when Christ entered heaven as our High Priest. We have to trust in that.

So it's not a dwelling on them deal. It's a trusting in Christ that He has rejoined us back to God who has accepted His blood for our sins and we are sharing in His life. So no sin can keep us from Him.

The Pharisees believed that sin, not keeping the law could keep you from God. Not true, sin can not keep us from God. Christ paid for them.

Rebellion and rejection is what keeps us from God. That is called mortal sin. When we sin out of rebellion and rejection we can lose our salvation and we need to go to confession and be rejoined back to God becuase we have sinned against God, against our own gift of grace.

Does that makes sense?

 

[Miss Shelby]

Our cooperation with that grace is required, and it does matter if we have cooperated with it or not. The sheep and the goats parable comes to mind.

You are wrong. the church teaches sola gratia. as to the sheep and goats, didn't I say a person he says their Christian and does nothing isn't Christian. Works do not save.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

You are wrong. the church teaches sola gratia. as to the sheep and goats, didn't I say a person he says their Christian and does nothing isn't Christian. Works do not save.

Respectfully, I am not wrong. You seem to be describing "Irresistible Grace" which is a heresy of Calvinism.

geocajun can confirm to you that we must cooperate with that grace. We can ignore it if we want though.

 

[benedictaoo]

Eh...slight correction, if I may...

Our cooperation with that grace is required, and it does matter if we have cooperated with it or not. The sheep and the goats parable comes to mind.

I think we need to explain "cooperating with grace."

It's reciprocity.

He saved us, now we reciprocate. There is no such thing as a grace that we can not or do not have the freedom to refuse.

We save others. Hey, we can because we are partakers of the divine nature.

We reciprocate by treating one another they way God has treated us. Merciful.

He died for all men, even the unbelievers and the reprobates. We are the believers, the elect whom he has shown great mercy towards so we go forth to love and serve the Lord... we do the works of mercy, the spiritual as well as the corporal.

He has shown us His great mercy and we are partakers of His divine nature and we share in His own life so we can and are commanded to go out and do these works of His mercy for His ppl who are yet to accept Him. We are commanded to recipocate, to return the favor.

 

[Miss Shelby]

And respectfully I will tell you again, there is nothing you can do on your own power that's going to save you. Grace enables us to choose, but we can choose to not follow it. But a work is not necessary for salvation. I am not desribing calvisism, thank you. It is by grace you are saved through faith, not of works so no man can boast. Do we have to choose to cooperate with the grace, yes. But were it not for grace, that choice would not exist.

Sola Gratia.

 

[Rhamiel]

Do you believe that works are a result of one having faith (in that the Holy Spirit changes you and this results in you living a better life) ?

good works are a result of Gods grace, every good thing we do is a result of God letting us be good, people without faith can do good works, this shows God gives His grace to everyone.

 

[Miss Shelby]

works can damn a person but they can't save a person. sin is a work. (action)

 

[anawim]

Hi,

I'd just like to clarify something , I've heard a lot of people say that Roman Catholics believe we are saved by works and not faith in Jesus . Is this the view you hold ? How do you rationalize Jesus coming as an atoning sacrifice - what was the purpose of His suffering and death if so ?

I personally maintain and hold the beleif that we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ, and that our salvation is all through the grace of God (ie. I cannot save myself , I'm just clinging to Him ) . I do believe anyone who truly has this faith will do 'good' works though , their good works being the fruit / evidence of their faith .


Thanks a bunch ,

Mark

I believe we are saved by grace alone. Faith and works together are both signs of, a witness to, and a reinforcement for the grace of salvation.

My faith is no more mine than my good works. They are both gifts from God.

As the song says, "you can't have one without the uh-uh-ther".

 

[Rhamiel]

we have to corrperate with grace, but we can do NOTHING good with out grace, both faith and works comes from grace

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

And respectfully I will tell you again, there is nothing you can do on your own power that's going to save you.

I agree. That isn't my position at all. "Without me you can do nothing" - JC

Grace enables us to choose, but we can choose to not follow it.

Absolutely. We agree again.

But a work is not necessary for salvation.

Yes, it is. A work inspired and assisted by grace...such as being charitable.

It is by grace you are saved through faith, not of works so no man can boast.

Not boast in himself because its not man's work in the first place. Or woman's.

Do we have to choose to cooperate with the grace, yes. But were it not for grace, that choice would not exist.

I agree.

 

[benedictaoo]

we have to corrperate with grace, but we can do NOTHING good with out grace, both faith and works comes from grace

and what is grace?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

and what is grace?

Actual grace: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm


Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.

 

[benedictaoo]

Actual grace: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm


Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness.

When Jesus entered heaven and presented God with His own blood for our sins... what did that release for us?

God's grace. That is what we cooperate with. This favor he has bestowed on us.

And what favor did He bestow on us? Forgiveness of sins.

So how do we cooperate with His grace that He has given to us?

We forgive one another as we have been forgiven.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

When Jesus entered heaven and presented God with His own blood for our sins... what did that release for us?

God's grace. That is what we cooperate with. This favor he has bestowed on us.

And what favor did He bestow on us? Forgiveness of sins.

So how do we cooperate with His grace that He has given to us?

We forgive one another as we have been forgiven.

Yes, but there is "Actual Grace" as well, which is assistance to "do the right thing."

 

[benedictaoo]

Yes, but there is "Actual Grace" as well, which is assistance to "do the right thing."

I agree. But cooperating with God's grace on a large scale simply means to participate in His life.

Think about what it is to participate in God's life.

What are the things that God does that we have a share in doing also?

The actual grace He gives is so we can accomplish doing the things in which He does.

This is how the world is going to be saved, through us bringing salvation to others.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I agree. But cooperating with God's grace on a large scale simply means to participate in His life.

Think about what it is to participate in God's life.

What are the things that God does that we have a share in doing also?

The actual grace He gives is so we can accomplish doing the things in which He does.

This is how the world is going to be saved, through us bringing salvation to others.

You mean we are all Co-Savers? Goodness, you might shock some people with that statement!