sabbath

[Thunder 88]

Just jumping in for a bit. Just getting acquainted with CF.

We have had a house fellowship now for 12 years; Messianic, 7th day Shabbat, Torah pursuant. We have people of many backgrounds including Catholicism, Lutheran, WWC, Baptist, and even some of the tribe of Judah.

I see in this thread that there is a tendency to think of "us" and "them", of OT vs. NT, and am pleased to see that there are also those who understand that it is really all one Book, not two separate or contradictory ones. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. One God and Father of all..The sames yesterday, today and forever. Alpha and Omega, Alef and Taf (Hebrew for same)

So are "Israel" and "the church" really two separate bodies?

Very enlightening study to look at the words translated as "church" and "synagogue"

I view the Septuagint as the connecting point between the Hebrew Scriptures and the NT/Brit Chadasha; i.e. the translators used the it as a guide to what Greek words were best suited to represent the Hebrew/Aramaic words.

Per Blue Letter Bible:
Old Testament (Hebrew) for "assembly" H4150 mow`ed mō·ād' congregation, feast, season, appointed, time, assembly, solemnity, solemn, days, sign, synagogues H4186 mowshab mō·shäv' habitation, dwellings, seat, dwelling, dwellingplace, dwell, places, sitting, assembly, situation, sojourning H5475 cowd sōde secret, counsel, assembly, inward H5712 `edah ā·dä' congregation, company, assembly, multitude, people, swarm H6116 `atsarah ats·ä·rä' solemn assembly, solemn meeting, assembly H6951 qahal kä·häl' congregation, assembly, company, multitude H6952 qĕhillah keh·hil·lä' congregation, assembly New Testament (Greek) for "assembly" G1577 ekklēsia ek-klā-sē'-ä church, assembly G3831 panēgyris pä-nā'-gü-rēs general assembly G4864 synagōgē sün-ä-gō-gā' synagogue, congregation, assembly
What I found, in a brief description, is that each of these words is primarily referring to a gathering of His people, had a shared sense of being related to keeping the Feast Days proclaimed in Leviticus, and truly from the Beginning, "moedim" as well as being related to the word for Bride.


In examining where the words "church" or "synagogue" were chosen in NT, I saw that it appears to have been the same words that were then selectively translated as "ekklesia" probably through the German "Kirche" to "church" wherever those who accepted Jesus/Yeshua haMaschiach were being described and "synagogue" wherever a body of believers who did NOT accept Him as Messiah were meant.
The primary meaning of both goes back to the same root: the people who have accepted the God of Israel; whether they are of Hebrew bloodline/Israel or not, and ultimately all have to be grafted into the Olive tree of Israel by faith in Messiah Yeshua.

Kahal Strong's 6951 and kehilah 6952 means assembly, congregation and is related to the word for
Bride: in Hebrew is Kallah Strong's 3618, from the root kalal, Strong's 3634; meaning to make complete.

The assembly is both/and those who honor the God of Israel, grafted in through Messiah's work on our behalf, whether of Israelite bloodline or otherwise; but all coming together in completion and wholeness and maturity as a Bride to the Husband.

So, when we have been brought near and are no longer kept far off but are grafted in to the Family of God, we are as the two being made one in His Hand as Ezekiel described would happen. Adopted children generally learn to do what their adoptive family does, rather than tell the family how they need to change, don't they?

Because we have been saved from the penalty of failing to keep Torah perfectly, does not give us license to do our own thing if we are part of the same family, yes? His grace is for when we fall short, not for when we aim short.

Hopefully, this may help to clear muddy waters? Please check and do your own search to verify.
May also be helpful as I found it was to do word study on ger and goy and goyim and acrobustia....all related to being a stranger or sojourner or the nations. Too much to go into here yet!

Great post.

I remember reading in the Torah that God gave instructions to the Israelites and the "foreigners" that lived with them.

So where some might think they are separate, they really are not if any foreigners or gentiles choose to follow the God of the Hebrews. Christian jews and gentiles have decided to follow God by following Jesus.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. He also gave two commandments, Love God above all things, and love your neighbor as yourself. These sum up the commandments, thus prompting us what to do with our sabbaths.

Its sad how translators of the bible choose words to separate rather to unite. Just recently I learned that the commandment of Thou Shall Not Steal actually means Thou Shall Not Kidnap.

 

[yedida]

Great post.

I remember reading in the Torah that God gave instructions to the Israelites and the "foreigners" that lived with them.

So where some might think they are separate, they really are not if any foreigners or gentiles choose to follow the God of the Hebrews. Christian jews and gentiles have decided to follow God by following Jesus.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. He also gave two commandments, Love God above all things, and love your neighbor as yourself. These sum up the commandments, thus prompting us what to do with our sabbaths.

Its sad how translators of the bible choose words to separate rather to unite. Just recently I learned that the commandment of Thou Shall Not Steal actually means Thou Shall Not Kidnap.

I think one of the problems is that many see the Mosaic Covenatn as being the "Jews" covenant/laws only and they weren't. First of all, at that time, there were no Jews, there were only Israelites (and friends), a nation God called out to represent Him and His ways and to be set-apart as a light to the nations.
Now, because of Yeshua, we gentiles have been brought near, grafted in, have been made one of His "chosen". If those words of Moses applied to His "chosen" back then, why not now if we also are now a part of that group? It's true that for right now we cannot perform the Temple services and the sacrifices for sin we wouldn't do anyway (I don't think) but we should still all obey all that we can.

And, yes, the Christian translators leave much to be desired sometines; that's one of the man reasons I use a Tanakh. If you want to know what a Spanish word means don;t go ask a Russian, ask a Spanish person.

 

[CGL1023]

when is the sabbath? The sabbath is specified in the law. I don't personally know it.

do you keep the sabbath? I observe Sunday and do not call it sabbath

what do the bible says about the sabbath day?
I know that we, as Christians, are under the New Covenant and that the Old Covenant has passed away. We are out from under the curse of the law(Gal 3:10); that no one can be justified by the law(Gal 2:16) and that the law is not of faith(Gal 3:12).

One of Jesus' primary offenses, while on earth, was that he violated the law surrounding keeping the sabbath by healing on the sabbath on multiple occasions. He declared that He was the Lord of the sabbath(Mt 12:8).

By the above assertions, it must be that sabbath observance is not for Christians.
.

 

[sabine homestead]

Here is a big problem , people hear thangs , and then thank there true with out reserching it , and worse , passing it on to others that pass the untrue thang to more . The laws of God have not ended ,[ it just makes you feel better to thank so] , And Jesus states this , That he had not come to do away with the laws . you can try to interpitate this some other was for peace of mind , but to make God and Jesus happy about us , are chose must be to do it , There Way , with viger and all your being .

 

[bbbbbbb]

For those who wish to observe days, feasts, and new moons, please feel free to do so without receiving my condemnation. Please also do not judge those of us who do not ascribe to your practices.

 

[Zanting]

Keeping the Sabbath Holy is one of the Ten Commandments and indeed it was changed from Saturday to Sunday according to the history I reviewed. When I have asked other Christians about this change, they asked me if I thought that it mattered to God which day we set aside for the Sabbath. That meant it was up to God to decide about this issue, not me. Certainly I know many sincere born-again Christians who set Sunday aside as the Sabbath. I leave it as a personal choice. For me, as a new Christian, I just want to do what God says in the Bible. So I go to different churches on Sunday with Christian friends because I believe that we can worship God anytime, everyday, and I have my own worship time on Saturday and keep it as my day of rest, the day God chose.

 

[James Clarkston]

when is the sabbath do you keep the sabbath what do the bible says about the sabbath day

Sundays - Why we Observe

Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1 – Jesus arose upon “the first day of the week….”
Acts 2 – Pentecost – by Divine design always came on Sunday. (Lev. 23:15-16).
Acts 2 – The church was established – “repentance and remission of sins” first preached this Sunday in Acts 2 – and they were “added to the saved”.
Acts 20:7 – The early church met on “the first day of the week” for communion.
1 Corinthians 16:2 – Early church “offerings” were directed to be done “upon the first day of the week…”.


Can't go wrong with scripture versus following OT laws and traditions in the NT church which is managed totally different by God than the Children of Israel...

This is not salvation critical so God is not going to send someone to hell for observing Sunday... the NT saints observed Sunday.

 

[Johnnz]

I think one of the problems is that many see the Mosaic Covenatn as being the "Jews" covenant/laws only and they weren't. First of all, at that time, there were no Jews, there were only Israelites (and friends), a nation God called out to represent Him and His ways and to be set-apart as a light to the nations.
Now, because of Yeshua, we gentiles have been brought near, grafted in, have been made one of His "chosen". If those words of Moses applied to His "chosen" back then, why not now if we also are now a part of that group? It's true that for right now we cannot perform the Temple services and the sacrifices for sin we wouldn't do anyway (I don't think) but we should still all obey all that we can.

I wonder when I see posts such as this (no offence intended). I just can't understand how people can read the NT without clearly seeing what almost all the NT authors wrote about Jesus and the new covenant, including entire theme of the letters- Romans, Galatians, & Hebrews and significant sections of both the Corinthian ones too.

John
NZ

 

[James Clarkston]

I wonder when I see posts such as this (no offence intended). I just can't understand how people can read the NT without clearly seeing what almost all the NT authors wrote about Jesus and the new covenant, including entire theme of the letters- Romans, Galatians, & Hebrews and significant sections of both the Corinthian ones too.

John
NZ

Well, the NT does have it's roots in the OT and is basically the same covenant...but based on better promises.

There is much to be learned from the OT, but we do need to remember the "better promises" of the NT.

 

[Johnnz]

Well, the NT does have it's roots in the OT and is basically the same covenant...but based on better promises.

There is much to be learned from the OT, but we do need to remember the "better promises" of the NT.

The same? Then what is the New?

Is this what the NT writers believed when they wrote:

Rom 3:21 21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Rom 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Rom 7:1-4 Do you not know, brothers — for I am speaking to men who know the law — that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
Rom 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Rom 8:2-4 ..because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Rom 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
1 Cor 9:20-21 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
2 Cor 3:4-6 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant- — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Gal 2:19-21 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
Gal 3:24-25 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
Eph 2:15-16 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility
Heb 7:12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.
Heb 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming — not the realities themselves.
Heb 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance — Heb 12:24 ...to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


That seems a pretty consistent stance by the NT writers from what I can see.


John
NZ

 

[Zanting]

Yes, I agree... it is not salvation critical.

 

[James Clarkston]

John, if you cannot see where the NT came directly out of the OT... then hope that works out for you.
The OT is choked full of references of the coming Christ.

I never said it wasn't new and different...but it is still the Covenant between God and the Man, Jesus Christ (the last Adam, Who took the place of the fallen first Adam). God seeks to graft us in to this Covenant...and He can easily cut us off to if we frustrate His Grace by being a worker of iniquity, refusing God His right of coming in to our lives and "knowing" us in a personal, intimate way!

Yes, it is based on better and different promises...causing some items in the OT to not be passed thru to the new. Some items, such as tithing are still in tact, but God doesn't send a person to hell for not tithing...but, it's still God's will for His people to honor Him with the Tithe! But, what's funny is many think the 10 Commandments don't apply to us in the NT....as though it's OK with God if we steal, lie, murder, commit adultery, etc, etc.

Jesus did say keep the Law and the Prophets as He spoke of in Matthew 22:37, among other places...so just because we are under the NT, that does not mean we are free to do just anything we want and ignore what God says is right! (Jesus is basically saying Deuteronomy 6:5 is still expected of God's people)

But, oddly enough...most Christians think it does...cause we're under "Grace". To many, Grace means... do whatever you want, it's OK we're forgiven anyhow and will still go to Heaven... and that is a doctrine of devils known in many circles as OSAS

Bottom line is, we are NOT our own...we've been bought with a price and are commanded in the NT to honor God with our entire being and everything we are and everything we own. Jesus paid for this right with His Blood!

Yes, I agree... it is not salvation critical.

Ah, but to some... it is!

Some think if you don't observe on Saturday.... you're a dirty, rotten sinner who will burn in hell for all eternity!

It would be kinda funny, if it weren't so pathetic...

 

[Zanting]

I believe that God is more concerned about what truly lies in the heart of His followers than what day they observe as the Sabbath. That's just my opinion and people always have opinions or understandings that vary about many things in the Bible. I would not want to say that because I observe Saturday, it is the only way and those who do not will spend eternity in Hell. That's not for me to judge.

What I understand about the history of it's change is a little more unsettling, if in fact it is true. What I read stated that when the Catholic church first became established, it merged with Egyptian Sun worship to make it less antagonistic among those people. It changed the Sabbath to Sunday, because it was the Sun worshipers Sabbath. If this is true, then that would mean that Sunday Sabbath is worshiping Lucifer (morning star/light bringer, and a nasty trick for Lucifer to pull I might add). But like I said, I don't know if that is a fact or someones historical opinion. I'm sure someone here would know if it is true or not.

 

[Johnnz]

My comments are in bold

The OT is choked full of references of the coming Christ.

I agree. And the NT presents Jesus and the new covenant as both replacing and fulfilling all those OT promises.

I never said it wasn't new and different...but it is still the Covenant between God and the Man, Jesus Christ (the last Adam, Who took the place of the fallen first Adam). God seeks to graft us in to this Covenant...and He can easily cut us off to if we frustrate His Grace by being a worker of iniquity, refusing God His right of coming in to our lives and "knowing" us in a personal, intimate way!

As above. Yes, the New Covenant is between Father and Son. And that's why the NT writers, in the verses I quoted, saw the Old has having come to an end. But what is important here is seeing the New as fulfilment, a growing out of the Old. It's not that we simply ignore the Old, as we only fully understand the New from that foundation. But now the law keeping of the Old has been replaced by the new heart within, as promised.

Yes, it is based on better and different promises...causing some items in the OT to not be passed thru to the new. Some items, such as tithing are still in tact, but God doesn't send a person to hell for not tithing...but, it's still God's will for His people to honor Him with the Tithe!

That's just not true. Tithing was mandated only under the Mosaic covenant, nowhere else. Now we ourselves become the offering "..present yourselves a living sacrifice...." All of us belongs to God now. We are to be good stewards of our own lives.

But, what's funny is many think the 10 Commandments don't apply to us in the NT....as though it's OK with God if we steal, lie, murder, commit adultery, etc, etc.

Again, that's not true. Cain sinned by murdering Abel long before the Mosaic covenant. Jesus took those commandments, as did some of the NT writers later, and greatly expanded their application to our lives into our motives as well.

Jesus did say keep the Law and the Prophets as He spoke of in Matthew 22:37, among other places...so just because we are under the NT, that does not mean we are free to do just anything we want and ignore what God says is right! (Jesus is basically saying Deuteronomy 6:5 is still expected of God's people)

But, oddly enough...most Christians think it does...cause we're under "Grace". To many, Grace means... do whatever you want, it's OK we're forgiven anyhow and will still go to Heaven... and that is a doctrine of devils known in many circles as OSAS

Jesus spoke as a Jew to the Jewish people still living under the Old. It was His faithfulness to that Old Covenant that Jesus could say "Which of you can convict me of sin." He was the only person who kept Torah perfectly before God. Your last sentence just misses the mark. I, and I am sure others who think similarly to me about the Old and the New, accept the higher standards required under the New. Frankly, it's quite ridiculous to suggest we don't oppose stealing, or lying etc. That is a complete misinterpretation, or at least misunderstanding of what I believe.

Bottom line is, we are NOT our own...we've been bought with a price and are commanded in the NT to honor God with our entire being and everything we are and everything we own. Jesus paid for this right with His Blood!

Have I ever said anything to the contrary?

Ah, but to some... it is!

That is simply offensive and uncharitable.

John
NZ

 

[Zanting]

So does anyone know anything about what I posted above?

 

[paul1149]

Zanting,

I believe you are spot on concerning legalism.

As for Sunday, we can see some move toward it in the Book of Acts, where it is called the "Lord's Day". But that is not to make Sunday the new Sabbath in any legalistic sense, or to make it compulsory in any sense.

I will be unsubbing because I don't like these ongoing threads.

 

[Estherann]

I don't understand why it dishonours God to keep one of His commandments.

All I can say is if you don't keep the seventh day sabbath then give it a try. There is definitely a huge blessing in it.

We are in troubled times and God has said about these times that He will put his laws into his peoples hearts and minds. So why argue about theology? We have to study for ourselves and pray with an open mind, God has promised to lead us.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I would suggest a study of the freedom we have in Christ. The entire 2nd chapter of Colossians speaks to that, in particular:

Therefore, don’t let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.
These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is the Messiah. -Col 2:16-17​

Also, Hebrews chapter 4 spiritualizes the Sabbath rest we have in Christ. Galatians is a great book about our freedom in Christ.

 

[Memukan]

I believe that God is more concerned about what truly lies in the heart of His followers than what day they observe as the Sabbath. That's just my opinion and people always have opinions or understandings that vary about many things in the Bible. I would not want to say that because I observe Saturday, it is the only way and those who do not will spend eternity in Hell. That's not for me to judge.

What I understand about the history of it's change is a little more unsettling, if in fact it is true. What I read stated that when the Catholic church first became established, it merged with Egyptian Sun worship to make it less antagonistic among those people. It changed the Sabbath to Sunday, because it was the Sun worshipers Sabbath. If this is true, then that would mean that Sunday Sabbath is worshiping Lucifer (morning star/light bringer, and a nasty trick for Lucifer to pull I might add). But like I said, I don't know if that is a fact or someones historical opinion. I'm sure someone here would know if it is true or not.

Hey Zanting,

From early on, the letters to the believers now known as the NT, we are warned of false teachers. You might search out the Colossi Heresy. In 325 AD ? Constantine made Christianity the state religion and made it law you had to be Christian. I'm sure you can see a big problem with that man made idea. It brought all kinds of pagan rituals into the church.
If I can suggest to you and I mean no offense, but be a Berean and search the Scriptures to find out for yourself what the HOLY SPIRIT teaches us about the WAY of YAHWEH. Immanuel said; If you Love ME you will keep my Torah ( instruction, teaching, commandments,Law ) Please remember Jesus is the Torah made Flesh. It is important in this Day to have discernment. 1John explains to us the need to keep our Saviours Commands.

In Messiah Yahshua,

Memukan

P.S Sunday is not the Sabbath
Hebrews used #'s for days and months
until they came back from Babylon.
Hope this helps.

 

[Aslansbud]

It is a matter of record that Christians worshipped on the first day of the week as indicated in I Cor 16 and John's reference to the Lord's day. The Corinthinan refernce is around 55 AD and John's reference is around 90 -100 AD.

bugkiller

I believe the Corinthian reference makes no mention of a worship service - it refers to placing first fruits in reserve for the offering.

John's reference to 'the Lord's day" (gr. kyriakos) refers to the proclamation of Emperor Domitian that he (the emperor) be worshiped on the first day of every month, not the first day of the week.

Sunday wasn't declared the day of Christian worship until March of 321 A.D. by Constantine.