sabbath

[Johnnz]

It was a Christian Jew who first taught me that Sabbath keeping was mandated only under the Mosaic covenant.

John
NZ

 

[Memukan]

You gave some great verse, Memukan, the sad part is that your read right over the clear answers. Yes I believe the 10 commandments. Please anser for us, God made it clear who the sabbath was for, Israel, not the church. I gave the verses above. Why do you ignore them?
The church fathers were just repeating what the apostles already laid down.



Right, and I'll remember that every time I pull weeds.


Amen, I'm thankful for that every time it rains real bad.


We are Abrahams children by faith, and by faith receive righteousness throught the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary, plus nothing, minus nothing. The Land is for the Jews, not the church.



And, in the words of Moses a sign between god and Israel.



And any student of the Bible knows that the Davidic covenant was fulfilled in the Person of Jesus Christ, the son of David.



New Testament Christians don't keep the Passover, a shadow of the things to come, we keep the Lord's Supper, a remembrance of what he did on Calvary.



Which is fulfilled in the Person of Jesus Christ.



Huh?



Yes, and I'm glad he saved me a Gentile, the son of a Gentile, and has not delivered the old dead sign, but given me the spirit of Gracr in his New Covenant. The Apostles were confronted with what should we (Jews) put upon the Gentile Bride. Here is what they came up with:

Acts 15
[19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
[20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 21
[25] As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

That's it! That is all that they (Jewish apostles) put upon the Gentile believers.

God never asked the New Testament bride to become Israel all over again. He created a NEW thing. He WILL deal with Israel again at the end of times. Let the church be the church and Israel be Israel.

A pilgrim,

Its to bad your looking through replacement theology glasses, you can not see the forest because of the trees. For the 1st 40 years it was only Jews in the church. The Bible is a Jewish Book with Jewish thought. The Feast Times of YAH are Yahs Calender, not all is fulfilled and yes the early church celebrated all the feast. Paul taught the feast and the Sabbath. But you will twist the scripture to satisfied your belief. One more thing the first 3 feast have been fulfilled we still have 3 to go. They are the wedding feast. But you will be like one of the virgins that go around begging for oil because your lamp is ready to go out, not knowing what to do at your own wedding.

Memukan

 

[a pilgrim]

For the 1st 40 years it was only Jews in the church. The Bible is a Jewish Book with Jewish thought.

Two erroneous statements. You have an obsession with Jewish thought. The Bible is a heavenly book.

What about the following passage that you did not address:

Exodus 31
[12] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[13] Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
[14] Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
[15] Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
[16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
[17] It is a sign between me and the children of Israelfor ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Notice the pronouns. Answer these questions:

1. The Lord told Moses to speak to whom? (vs. 13) Israel.
2. Who did he tell to keep his sabbaths? (vs. 13) Israel.
3. It was a sign between the Lord and who? (vs. 13) Israel.
4. It lasted throughout whose generations? (vs. 13) Israel.
5. So who would know he is the Lord that sanctifies? (vs. 13) Israel.
6. Who shall keep the sabbath? (vs. 14) Israel
7. It was holy unto whom? (vs. 14) Israel.
8. The children of whom shall keep it? (vs. 16) Israel.
9. It is a sign between the Lord and whom forever? (vs. 17) Israel.

There, that was an easy test, kind of like public school, I even gave the answers. Class, did we see who was to keep the sabbath?

If you guessed, Israel, you get 100, if you guessed the New Testament church, well, sorry, you must go back to bible school again. Jesus said keep MY commandments, his New Covenant instructions to the New Testament believers.

The Lord was VERY CLEAR to whom he was speaking, Israel. God is NOT the author of confusion. So please:

1. Give us one New Testament verse where Jesus instructs us to keep the sabbath.
2. Give us one New Testament verse where Paul or one of the Apostles instructs us to keep the sabbath.

 

[Memukan]

Here are 3 scriptures Matt. 5:17-19 Yahshua declares that not one yod or horn of a letter( meaning the apex of the letter) of The Law will pass away. HE came and fulfilled The Law the MORAL CHARACTOR of YAHWEH. And through Yahshua we could fulfill The Law as long as we are lead by the HOLY SPIRIT.
2nd. Acts 3:21 Peter states Yahshua is in Heaven and there to stay until all that has been spoken of in the TORAH is fulfilled. The 3rd scripture backs it up in Hosea 5:15 which is a scripture dealing with the tribulation.Sorry to tell you, but Christians will go through the tribulation period. So may Yahshua through the Holy Spirit give you revealing truth.That is in earnest. Please do not waste your time writing because you will not convince me of the Protest Catholic view point.

Memukan

 

[Johnnz]

1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
NIV

Here, Peter ascribes significant markers of OT Jewish identity and election onto the church which now includes Gentiles, in fulfilment of the promise to Abraham that:
Gen 22:15-18 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." NIV

The old temple in Jerusalem and its significance is now replaced by living temples:
1 Cor 3:16 16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? NIV

Eph 2:21-22 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. NIV

The church are part of Abraham's seed, all those, true Jews under the OT and believing Gentiles and Jews in the NT, united as one race and one family in Christ. The Old is superceded by and in the New.

John
NZ

 

[a pilgrim]

Here is a sxriptural case study of why the law, which would include sabbath keeping, was not brought into the church:

Gal. 2
[11] But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
[12] For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
[13] And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation [to hide under a false appearance, insert mine].
[14] But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Peter, who was a Jew, and knew FULL WELL the law and the keeping of sabbath, was living like the Gentiles in their presence and like a Jew in their presence and this was hypocracy.

[15] We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
[16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[17] But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
[18] For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

What did Paul destroy?

[19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
[20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

You, and the sabbath keepers, by insisting that sabbath keeping, a clear command of the law, is commanded in the new testament, resurrect the law which cannot justify anyone, nor could it ever. It was for the Jews to observe as a sign, a token between them and God.

So, where are the Jews, (with their sabbath keeping,) now?

Rom. 11
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

In this warning to the Gentile Bride, Paul tells them not to be highminded lest they be broken off, (because of unbelief,) like Israel. For salvation has come by grace and not the law. This is why earlier in the chapter Paul said:

[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It can't be both, a hybrid faith of New Testament salvation by faith by grace and the keeping of the law, which sabbath keeping falls under. Again Paul made it clear:

Eph. 2
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It cannot be both. It is either the law or grace, but cannot be both. If you try to obtain righteousness by the law, you put yourself in a precarious position:

Gal. 5
[4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

James 2
[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

You have to keep it ALL! And even if you could, AND YOU CANNOT, you still would fall under Gal. 5:4 and be fallen from grace. What self-condemnation.

Can't you see?

 

[stelow]

God never asked the New Testament bride to become Israel all over again. He created a NEW thing. He WILL deal with Israel again at the end of times. Let the church be the church and Israel be Israel.

The 12 tribes of Israel are scattered through out the world and we all become members of the Body of Christ the same way, by faith in God's gift of grace though Christ Jesus.

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" - Ephesians 4[4]

I think this whole sabbath keeping is much of the same as the church leaders were using back in Bible history; Jesus said they were hypocrites, and of their father the devil, and full of dead men's bones.

 

[yedida]

The odd thing is to trick workers of restaurants to serve sabbatarians on their old Sabbath day. They pull their wallet out and bribe the chiefs and the cooks to break Sabbath so the sabbatarians can have something tasty after church.

You'll never cover the bases. Any day is suitable but was a single man that changed the day. Chick-fa-la is doing a good job on the day of rest.

Wrong! Most people who observe the shabbat from fri sundown to sat sundown also obey one of the tenets of this shabbat - we DO NOT handle money!! Nor do we make others do our business for us. This even includes tithes and free-will offerings that we put into the tzadaka box. We either drop our money in before sundown on Fri or after havalah on Sat. after sundown.
So, your argument there won't work.

 

[Magenta Flame]

In my experience, the simple answer is to ask GOD. If He is inspiring me to do something, I do it. The Sabbath is a good example of that. He put it in my heart to observe Sabbath sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. His Spirit was in it and it was a blessed day each week for me. After a time I could feel the blessing of it come in a day before and leave a day after. I perceived GOD was extending the Sabbath for me and so I observed an extended Sabbath. Eventually, the only day that did not feel blessed was the Sabbath Friday to Saturday and I was able to perceive that I was no longer to hold that day above others. Now, I am experiencing the blessing of the Sabbath every day.
GOD used the practice of observing Sabbath to teach me to recognize Him. When it had served it's purpose, it was time to let it go.
That is why we are encouraged not to judge others FOR observing one day as above another, nor judge them for NOT holding one day above another. That is why we are not to argue over doctrines: GOD may be using an understanding or observence as a tool to lift someone up to the next, deeper, level of understanding, drawing them closer to Him.

 

[a pilgrim]

So, even if the sabbath was never given to the New Testament church and the bible clearly says the sabbath is for the children of Israel only, you still think God would tell you to do it? Makes no sense. Who makes up your religion, you and your feelings, or God and his word?

 

[Magenta Flame]

We are to live off every utterence that comes from GOD, every Word. My GOD is alive and thus speaking Words I live off of.......thus I am a daughter of Abraham.

 

[Yitzchak]

Two erroneous statements. You have an obsession with Jewish thought. The Bible is a heavenly book.

What about the following passage that you did not address:

Exodus 31
[12] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[13] Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
[14] Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
[15] Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
[16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
[17] It is a sign between me and the children of Israelfor ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Notice the pronouns. Answer these questions:

1. The Lord told Moses to speak to whom? (vs. 13) Israel.
2. Who did he tell to keep his sabbaths? (vs. 13) Israel.
3. It was a sign between the Lord and who? (vs. 13) Israel.
4. It lasted throughout whose generations? (vs. 13) Israel.
5. So who would know he is the Lord that sanctifies? (vs. 13) Israel.
6. Who shall keep the sabbath? (vs. 14) Israel
7. It was holy unto whom? (vs. 14) Israel.
8. The children of whom shall keep it? (vs. 16) Israel.
9. It is a sign between the Lord and whom forever? (vs. 17) Israel.

There, that was an easy test, kind of like public school, I even gave the answers. Class, did we see who was to keep the sabbath?

If you guessed, Israel, you get 100, if you guessed the New Testament church, well, sorry, you must go back to bible school again. Jesus said keep MY commandments, his New Covenant instructions to the New Testament believers.

The Lord was VERY CLEAR to whom he was speaking, Israel. God is NOT the author of confusion. So please:

1. Give us one New Testament verse where Jesus instructs us to keep the sabbath.
2. Give us one New Testament verse where Paul or one of the Apostles instructs us to keep the sabbath.

Notice in this New Testament scripture written to the Ephesian church , one of the Ten Commandments is given as a command to the church.

Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Not only does it use one of the Ten Commandments , it also specifically assigns the Old Testament promise of long life to those in the church who keep this command which was originally given to Israel..

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses to give to the nation of Israel. If one of them applies to the church ( which this one obviously does ) with the attached promised blessings , then potentially ,they all can be applied to the church. Your argument seems to be based upon the premise that the Old Testament commands and promises made to Israel can not be applied to the church.This example in Ephesians chapter six proves that your premise is incorrect.

Not only that , this example also proves that it is possible for a New Testament church to follow an Old Testament command and yet still be very much under grace.

So let's be honest. The scripture does not support this extreme view that the Old Testament was written only for Israel. In fact , it specifically teaches the opposite.




This next scripture was written to the Church once again , and the scripture that it is reffering to is the Old Testament since that was the only scripture available at the time this was written. Also notice the word "all" in this passage. All scripture , in this case specifically including the Old Testament is profitable for the purpose of doctrine , correction and instruction in righteousness , for the New Testament church.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If we were to subscribe to the premise that your post puts forth , then this scripture would have to be re written to say " all scripture was profitable for doctrine , correction and instruction for Israel. The church does not need these instructions since they are under grace and made righteous apart from any works that they do. " Obviously , this scripture is not up for debate and re writing it is foolish. it stands as written. the Old testament is profitable for New Testament teaching..

Faulty premise debunked ...

 

[yedida]

Notice in this New Testament scripture written to the Ephesian church , one of the Ten Commandments is given as a command to the church.




Not only does it use one of the Ten Commandments , it also specifically assigns the Old Testament promise of long life to those in the church who keep this command which was originally given to Israel..

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses to give to the nation of Israel. If one of them applies to the church ( which this one obviously does ) with the attached promised blessings , then potentially ,they all can be applied to the church. Your argument seems to be based upon the premise that the Old Testament commands and promises made to Israel can not be applied to the church.This example in Ephesians chapter six proves that your premise is incorrect.

Not only that , this example also proves that it is possible for a New Testament church to follow an Old Testament command and yet still be very much under grace.

So let's be honest. The scripture does not support this extreme view that the Old Testament was written only for Israel. In fact , it specifically teaches the opposite.




This next scripture was written to the Church once again , and the scripture that it is reffering to is the Old Testament since that was the only scripture available at the time this was written. Also notice the word "all" in this passage. All scripture , in this case specifically including the Old Testament is profitable for the purpose of doctrine , correction and instruction in righteousness , for the New Testament church.




If we were to subscribe to the premise that your post puts forth , then this scripture would have to be re written to say " all scripture was profitable for doctrine , correction and instruction for Israel. The church does not need these instructions since they are under grace and made righteous apart from any works that they do. " Obviously , this scripture is not up for debate and re writing it is foolish. it stands as written. the Old testament is profitable for New Testament teaching..

Faulty premise debunked ...

 

[Johnnz]

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses to give to the nation of Israel. If one of them applies to the church ( which this one obviously does ) with the attached promised blessings , then potentially ,they all can be applied to the church. Your argument seems to be based upon the premise that the Old Testament commands and promises made to Israel can not be applied to the church.This example in Ephesians chapter six proves that your premise is incorrect.

Not only that , this example also proves that it is possible for a New Testament church to follow an Old Testament command and yet still be very much under grace.

So let's be honest. The scripture does not support this extreme view that the Old Testament was written only for Israel. In fact , it specifically teaches the opposite.

This next scripture was written to the Church once again , and the scripture that it is referring to is the Old Testament since that was the only scripture available at the time this was written. Also notice the word "all" in this passage. All scripture , in this case specifically including the Old Testament is profitable for the purpose of doctrine , correction and instruction in righteousness , for the New Testament church.

If we were to subscribe to the premise that your post puts forth , then this scripture would have to be re written to say " all scripture was profitable for doctrine , correction and instruction for Israel. The church does not need these instructions since they are under grace and made righteous apart from any works that they do. " Obviously , this scripture is not up for debate and re writing it is foolish. it stands as written. the Old testament is profitable for New Testament teaching..

Your viewpoint fails to see the progressive nature of the biblical story. That story is in five parts - creation, fall, the story of Israel, Jesus, the church. Within Israel God's story moved from individuals, to a family (Abraham), from which were the origins the Hebrew nation, which then included another progression under the Mosaic covenant, from priesthood to judges, to king and prophets. Thus the OT is not irrelevant at all. But, as in any story, the early elements of the plot must be seen within the context of the finale, which was Jesus.

The many references to Torah being replaced in the NT must be taken into account. The fact that Sabbath keeping was only prescribed under the Mosaic covenant, which clearly was replaced by the New, and that Paul, a devout Jew, would not uphold Sabbath for those who met and worshipped on another day is significant. Paul would not restrict the new community in issues such as food customs, holy days, circumcision and food offered to idols, all big issues under Torah.

Your position is not entirely wrong, just foreshortened its its understanding of the progression of God's story as recorded in both Testaments.

John
NZ

 

[OldStudent]

when is the sabbath

"Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.... But the SEVENTH day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God" Exodus 20:8, 10. That would be Saturday.

do you keep the sabbath

Every week.

what do the bible says about the sabbath day

It was established at creation (Gen 2:1, 2; Ex 20:11) as part of creation.

Jesus said it "was made for man" (Mk 2:27) - in the general sense of humanity at large - broader than "the seed of Abraham."

He is Lord of it (vs 28). If you look carefully through the Gospel record it will be found that He was quite deliberate to defend and correct its observance - not set aside or change its time of observance.

He assumed its continued observance (Matt 24:20).

Since He is my Lord and He is Lord of the Sabbath: I'm with Him on this.

There is much more that can be said but this is a good enough start.

 

[Thunder 88]

please help me , im looking for more christians that belive in the saterday sabbath , this is the right one , dont be decived by what others say , the bible says it many times . Jesus tells that " Think not that i have come to destroy the laws " . And if the spirit is not in you , you will not question the lie's we are feed . please help me find the few that see it , Thank You

Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is the Sabbath. I have even heard Catholic priests say this on TV.

Constantine changed it to Sunday. He hated Jews, and he worshiped the sun.

If you examine Hebrews chapter 4 more closely, it really predicts that this would happen.

If you really love God with all your heart, mind, and strength, you will see through the lies.

Brake bread on Sunday to remember Christ, but worship God and do no work on the Sabbath. btw, turning on a light is not work. Do no labor.

 

[yedida]

Thank You Every One , im sorry if i may have gotton eny one mad . Just looking for like minded people , Thank You , and let me share what i found , there is in deepth study and info at churchathome.org and at cbcg.org

Someone else responded just now to your query and resurrected your question. If you haven't already hooked up with a group of like-minded folks, have you looked into Messianic Judaism? If not and you're still looking, check us out, we don't bite and are rather friendly.

 

[heweeps]

I have seen a small newsletter put out by a Roman Catholic printing group that admits the Roman church created the Sunday thing and they were quite tickled at the number of Protestants that bought into Sunday.

 

[SAM Wis]

Just jumping in for a bit. Just getting acquainted with CF.

We have had a house fellowship now for 12 years; Messianic, 7th day Shabbat, Torah pursuant. We have people of many backgrounds including Catholicism, Lutheran, WWC, Baptist, and even some of the tribe of Judah.

I see in this thread that there is a tendency to think of "us" and "them", of OT vs. NT, and am pleased to see that there are also those who understand that it is really all one Book, not two separate or contradictory ones. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. One God and Father of all..The sames yesterday, today and forever. Alpha and Omega, Alef and Taf (Hebrew for same)

So are "Israel" and "the church" really two separate bodies?

Very enlightening study to look at the words translated as "church" and "synagogue"

I view the Septuagint as the connecting point between the Hebrew Scriptures and the NT/Brit Chadasha; i.e. the translators used the it as a guide to what Greek words were best suited to represent the Hebrew/Aramaic words.

Per Blue Letter Bible:
Old Testament (Hebrew) for "assembly" H4150 mow`ed mō·ād' congregation, feast, season, appointed, time, assembly, solemnity, solemn, days, sign, synagogues H4186 mowshab mō·shäv' habitation, dwellings, seat, dwelling, dwellingplace, dwell, places, sitting, assembly, situation, sojourning H5475 cowd sōde secret, counsel, assembly, inward H5712 `edah ā·dä' congregation, company, assembly, multitude, people, swarm H6116 `atsarah ats·ä·rä' solemn assembly, solemn meeting, assembly H6951 qahal kä·häl' congregation, assembly, company, multitude H6952 qĕhillah keh·hil·lä' congregation, assembly New Testament (Greek) for "assembly" G1577 ekklēsia ek-klā-sē'-ä church, assembly G3831 panēgyris pä-nā'-gü-rēs general assembly G4864 synagōgē sün-ä-gō-gā' synagogue, congregation, assembly
What I found, in a brief description, is that each of these words is primarily referring to a gathering of His people, had a shared sense of being related to keeping the Feast Days proclaimed in Leviticus, and truly from the Beginning, "moedim" as well as being related to the word for Bride.


In examining where the words "church" or "synagogue" were chosen in NT, I saw that it appears to have been the same words that were then selectively translated as "ekklesia" probably through the German "Kirche" to "church" wherever those who accepted Jesus/Yeshua haMaschiach were being described and "synagogue" wherever a body of believers who did NOT accept Him as Messiah were meant.
The primary meaning of both goes back to the same root: the people who have accepted the God of Israel; whether they are of Hebrew bloodline/Israel or not, and ultimately all have to be grafted into the Olive tree of Israel by faith in Messiah Yeshua.

Kahal Strong's 6951 and kehilah 6952 means assembly, congregation and is related to the word for
Bride: in Hebrew is Kallah Strong's 3618, from the root kalal, Strong's 3634; meaning to make complete.

The assembly is both/and those who honor the God of Israel, grafted in through Messiah's work on our behalf, whether of Israelite bloodline or otherwise; but all coming together in completion and wholeness and maturity as a Bride to the Husband.

So, when we have been brought near and are no longer kept far off but are grafted in to the Family of God, we are as the two being made one in His Hand as Ezekiel described would happen. Adopted children generally learn to do what their adoptive family does, rather than tell the family how they need to change, don't they?

Because we have been saved from the penalty of failing to keep Torah perfectly, does not give us license to do our own thing if we are part of the same family, yes? His grace is for when we fall short, not for when we aim short.

Hopefully, this may help to clear muddy waters? Please check and do your own search to verify.
May also be helpful as I found it was to do word study on ger and goy and goyim and acrobustia....all related to being a stranger or sojourner or the nations. Too much to go into here yet!

 

[yedida]

Just jumping in for a bit. Just getting acquainted with CF.

We have had a house fellowship now for 12 years; Messianic, 7th day Shabbat, Torah pursuant. We have people of many backgrounds including Catholicism, Lutheran, WWC, Baptist, and even some of the tribe of Judah.

I see in this thread that there is a tendency to think of "us" and "them", of OT vs. NT, and am pleased to see that there are also those who understand that it is really all one Book, not two separate or contradictory ones. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. One God and Father of all..The sames yesterday, today and forever. Alpha and Omega, Alef and Taf (Hebrew for same)

So are "Israel" and "the church" really two separate bodies?

Very enlightening study to look at the words translated as "church" and "synagogue"

I view the Septuagint as the connecting point between the Hebrew Scriptures and the NT/Brit Chadasha; i.e. the translators used the it as a guide to what Greek words were best suited to represent the Hebrew/Aramaic words.

Per Blue Letter Bible:
Old Testament (Hebrew) for "assembly" H4150 mow`ed mō·ād' congregation, feast, season, appointed, time, assembly, solemnity, solemn, days, sign, synagogues H4186 mowshab mō·shäv' habitation, dwellings, seat, dwelling, dwellingplace, dwell, places, sitting, assembly, situation, sojourning H5475 cowd sōde secret, counsel, assembly, inward H5712 `edah ā·dä' congregation, company, assembly, multitude, people, swarm H6116 `atsarah ats·ä·rä' solemn assembly, solemn meeting, assembly H6951 qahal kä·häl' congregation, assembly, company, multitude H6952 qĕhillah keh·hil·lä' congregation, assembly New Testament (Greek) for "assembly" G1577 ekklēsia ek-klā-sē'-ä church, assembly G3831 panēgyris pä-nā'-gü-rēs general assembly G4864 synagōgē sün-ä-gō-gā' synagogue, congregation, assembly
What I found, in a brief description, is that each of these words is primarily referring to a gathering of His people, had a shared sense of being related to keeping the Feast Days proclaimed in Leviticus, and truly from the Beginning, "moedim" as well as being related to the word for Bride.


In examining where the words "church" or "synagogue" were chosen in NT, I saw that it appears to have been the same words that were then selectively translated as "ekklesia" probably through the German "Kirche" to "church" wherever those who accepted Jesus/Yeshua haMaschiach were being described and "synagogue" wherever a body of believers who did NOT accept Him as Messiah were meant.
The primary meaning of both goes back to the same root: the people who have accepted the God of Israel; whether they are of Hebrew bloodline/Israel or not, and ultimately all have to be grafted into the Olive tree of Israel by faith in Messiah Yeshua.

Kahal Strong's 6951 and kehilah 6952 means assembly, congregation and is related to the word for
Bride: in Hebrew is Kallah Strong's 3618, from the root kalal, Strong's 3634; meaning to make complete.

The assembly is both/and those who honor the God of Israel, grafted in through Messiah's work on our behalf, whether of Israelite bloodline or otherwise; but all coming together in completion and wholeness and maturity as a Bride to the Husband.

So, when we have been brought near and are no longer kept far off but are grafted in to the Family of God, we are as the two being made one in His Hand as Ezekiel described would happen. Adopted children generally learn to do what their adoptive family does, rather than tell the family how they need to change, don't they?

Because we have been saved from the penalty of failing to keep Torah perfectly, does not give us license to do our own thing if we are part of the same family, yes? His grace is for when we fall short, not for when we aim short.

Hopefully, this may help to clear muddy waters? Please check and do your own search to verify.
May also be helpful as I found it was to do word study on ger and goy and goyim and acrobustia....all related to being a stranger or sojourner or the nations. Too much to go into here yet!

Good study.