Sabbath School subject discussion thread

[StormyOne]

Ok...in the context of this discussion, and your posting to which I was replying... you say humans have the ability to create, thus they are the creator as you put it:



Is this all you could muster...or do you really want a serious conversation to get at this issues...or will you bow out gracefully as you usually do?


AT

no need to insult AT, I answer your questions until we get to a point where our positions cannot be reconciled... so an insult is all you can muster?

Since you don't agree with me, what is it that you wish to discuss?

 

[StormyOne]

Do we? Or do we simply rearrange and reconfigure that which is already in existence?

we create... now there is a difference between creating out of nothing (what God does) and creating from what is available, which is what humans do.... is a human child a reconfiguration?

 

[StormyOne]

I have no problem with admitting there are additional vehicles that can lead one to the Saviour. There definitely are. But if one of these means leads you to a conclusion that directly conflicts with the Bible, and a decision must be made for which one you will believe, which is it?

You must first establish that the bible is the source of all truth and free from error... is that a claim you wish to make?

And as for the devil, yes I believe there are 2 sides to every story. Obviously there have to be. However, if you think you could get any sort of honesty out of the devil then that's your conviction and not mine lol...if he convinced a third of the angels with his story I'm sure it would take much less for fallen humanity...thus I don't intend to give him an ear...

Of course that is your choice... however I would submit that the story you believe you are familiar with, you are not...

 

[StormyOne]

Ouch that hurts.:o:o:o but no blood loss,



"Multidimentional reality" is code words for trying to establish a superhighway to endless possibilties but God has established only one way.

Childlike faith is not faith with absent of knowlege, it's knowing and trusting that God save through His Holy scriptures.

2Ti 3:15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


1Cr 1:20Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cr 1:21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


1Cr 2:5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

____________________________________________________________

A man name Martin Luther King had faith in the wisdom found in God's word. His faith was instumental in overcoming insurmountable odds causing greater freedom and equality for all men.

A boy named David had faith in the wisdom found in God's word. His faith was instumental in overcoming insurmountable odds causing freedom and prosperity to Israel
_____________________________________________________________



CRIB

as I said Crib, to each is own....

 

[AndrewK788]

Of course that is your choice... however I would submit that the story you believe you are familiar with, you are not...

I'm sure the devil would love it if we all truly believed that too...

It's been good talking to you, but apparently here is where our beliefs part ways. I do believe the Bible to be God inspired and trustworthy. To suggest it is fallible is potentially drawing into question the very foundation of Christianity and what we know about Christ. I am aware of how the Bible was compiled, canonized, when, by whom, and what was excluded and altered. But I do have faith in an Almighty God that I believe would preserve at least what is necessary for us today. I don't believe he would throw us to the world to go on a wild goose chase for truth with absolutely no solid basis for what we should believe. If you don't share that same faith, that's fine, but I don't share your particular belief.

From what I understand so far concerning your opinions: the Bible, though useful, is not 100% correct or infallible, there are alternative (better?) ways of finding God...other "vehicles," and the devil has a story to tell and possibly we should listen?

Just wanting to make sure I didn't misunderstand you. Anyway, my final question:

Is human wisdom and the world worthy of more faith than the gospel of our Savior?

 

[Adventtruth]

no need to insult AT, I answer your questions until we get to a point where our positions cannot be reconciled... so an insult is all you can muster?

Since you don't agree with me, what is it that you wish to discuss?

Stormy...I was not trying to be insulting and did not think you would recieve it as such. I apologise.

I don't know that our positions can't be reconciled as of yet. I am trying to win from you an honest, serious answer and I did not see you giving such an answer. I know you understood the question about creatorship outside of Christ... So to ask again... what creator is outside of Christ?


AT

 

[StormyOne]

Stormy...I was not trying to be insulting and did not think you would recieve it as such. I apologise.

I don't know that our positions can't be reconciled as of yet. I am trying to win from you an honest, serious answer and I did not see you giving such an answer. I know you understood the question about creatorship outside of Christ... So to ask again... what creator is outside of Christ?


AT

there is one ultimate Creator and that would be God/Christ.... I believe I have stated as such....

 

[StormyOne]

I'm sure the devil would love it if we all truly believed that too...

It's been good talking to you, but apparently here is where our beliefs part ways. I do believe the Bible to be God inspired and trustworthy. To suggest it is fallible is potentially drawing into question the very foundation of Christianity and what we know about Christ. I am aware of how the Bible was compiled, canonized, when, by whom, and what was excluded and altered. But I do have faith in an Almighty God that I believe would preserve at least what is necessary for us today. I don't believe he would throw us to the world to go on a wild goose chase for truth with absolutely no solid basis for what we should believe. If you don't share that same faith, that's fine, but I don't share your particular belief.

From what I understand so far concerning your opinions: the Bible, though useful, is not 100% correct or infallible, there are alternative (better?) ways of finding God...other "vehicles," and the devil has a story to tell and possibly we should listen?

Just wanting to make sure I didn't misunderstand you. Anyway, my final question:

Is human wisdom and the world worthy of more faith than the gospel of our Savior?

anything written by man, no matter how inspired cannot be infallible...you have attributed to the bible a characteristic that only belongs to God..... Likewise you have in one statement discounted all those who encounter God without the aid of the bible, all those who grew to know God and never had a bible...

You are thinking too concretely my friend... I have not said that you need to sit down with the devil to get his side of the story, simply that there are two sides to every story... I said that to challenge you to think about other possibilities and their ramifications...

As for what God preserved.... did he preserve the Qu'ran? How about other religious documents from other cultures?

Your last question is not really a question, but a judgmental statement dressed as a question, as such, you already know what you believe regarding human wisdom and the world, so I don't see the need to answer a question you have already answered....

 

[Adventtruth]

there is one ultimate Creator and that would be God/Christ.... I believe I have stated as such....

So you do understand that looking to the heavens and the stars will not disclose this information to you? The ULTIMATE source of truth for this claim of God/Christ (God in Christ?) is the bible only. Do you believe that?

AT

 

[StormyOne]

So you do understand that looking to the heavens and the stars will not disclose this information to you? The ULTIMATE source of truth for this claim of God/Christ (God in Christ?) is the bible only. Do you believe that?

AT

nope I do not believe that.... Looking at the heavens and stars will reveal that there is a design involved and that things did not just fall into order by themselves, that is the start of getting an understanding of The Creator..... I believe that God can and does reveal himself to humans by communicating directly with them, and that God does not need the bible to do so..... that is what you do not believe... Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and millions of other people never had a bible yet were intimately acquainted with God...

Let me be as clear as I can.. God does NOT need the bible to communicate his truth to humans....

 

[AndrewK788]

Your last question is not really a question, but a judgmental statement dressed as a question, as such, you already know what you believe regarding human wisdom and the world, so I don't see the need to answer a question you have already answered....

If I didn't know what I believed I wouldn't enter a debate.

Anyway, for me personally, I see life as being full of decisions. Perhaps to some that means thinking too concrete, but to me the opposite is opening the door to relativism, though you may disagree.

Just curious: since you've also raised the questions about the Quran and such, and it is a legitimate question, where do you, personally, find your faith and belief to call yourself a Christian? I'm not saying you're not a Christian Stormy! I'm just asking how you have come to that on your own given your current opinions.

 

[mva1985]

nope I do not believe that.... Looking at the heavens and stars will reveal that there is a design involved and that things did not just fall into order by themselves, that is the start of getting an understanding of The Creator..... I believe that God can and does reveal himself to humans by communicating directly with them, and that God does not need the bible to do so..... that is what you do not believe... Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and millions of other people never had a bible yet were intimately acquainted with God...

Let me be as clear as I can.. God does NOT need the bible to communicate his truth to humans....

As revealed in the Bible - Romans 1:20.

Although, I understand what Stormy is saying that you can and do experience God outside of the Bible. Has anyone ever been moved by witnessing the birth of a child. I believe this to be one of the miracles that proves that their is a Creator. Awesome experience!!!!

But I also believe in 2 Tim. 3:14-17

 

[Adventtruth]

nope I do not believe that.... Looking at the heavens and stars will reveal that there is a design involved and that things did not just fall into order by themselves, that is the start of getting an understanding of The Creator..... I believe that God can and does reveal himself to humans by communicating directly with them, and that God does not need the bible to do so..... that is what you do not believe... Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and millions of other people never had a bible yet were intimately acquainted with God...

Let me be as clear as I can.. God does NOT need the bible to communicate his truth to humans....

Its obvious that you are throwing out a red herring or you are not understanding my point. The heavens may minister a divine creator. But it does not tell you God is in Christ who is the door to salvation. And if you believe this, it has been reveiled to you through the bible or by someone who has knowledge of this. I suspect you have knowledge of this through the bible and trust it as truth. IF those who have not the written word of God, recieves and believes this message, they are saved. There is no salvation out side of Christ.

Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and millions of other people Had a common heritage passed down through time. These things where eventually written down as their history of their dealings with God. So your argument is a moot one at best Stormy. The real issue may be that you have recieved a less faithful perspective about certain bible truths along with relativism and conjecture.


AT

 

[StormyOne]

Its obvious that you are throwing out a red herring or you are not understanding my point. The heavens may minister a divine creator. But it does not tell you God is in Christ who is the door to salvation. And if you believe this, it has been reveiled to you through the bible or by someone who has knowledge of this. I suspect you have knowledge of this through the bible and trust it as truth. IF those who have not the written word of God, recieves and believes this message, they are saved. There is no salvation out side of Christ.

Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and millions of other people Had a common heritage passed down through time. These things where eventually written down as their history of their dealings with God. So your argument is a moot one at best Stormy. The real issue may be that you have recieved a less faithful perspective about certain bible truths along with relativism and conjecture.


AT

AT if you already know what I believe and think you don't need me to participate in this dialog... continue on without me..... there will be many who are saved who have no idea who Christ is... so no I don't agree with your premise...

peace

 

[StormyOne]

If I didn't know what I believed I wouldn't enter a debate.

Anyway, for me personally, I see life as being full of decisions. Perhaps to some that means thinking too concrete, but to me the opposite is opening the door to relativism, though you may disagree.

Just curious: since you've also raised the questions about the Quran and such, and it is a legitimate question, where do you, personally, find your faith and belief to call yourself a Christian? I'm not saying you're not a Christian Stormy! I'm just asking how you have come to that on your own given your current opinions.

Faith and belief to call myself a Christian? Not sure what you are asking... I believe in Christ, and that God has done what he needed to do to save humankind. I have arrived at my opinions because traditional explanations by christians are full of godtalk and meaningless phrases that fail to explain the "big picture."

 

[AndrewK788]

Faith and belief to call myself a Christian? Not sure what you are asking... I believe in Christ, and that God has done what he needed to do to save humankind. I have arrived at my opinions because traditional explanations by christians are full of godtalk and meaningless phrases that fail to explain the "big picture."

At the end of the day that is certainly what matters most.

God bless.

 

[StormyOne]

At the end of the day that is certainly what matters most.

God bless.

If that is the case, then why do some people get bent out of shape when others don't share the same beliefs as they? To the point that there is some question if they are even christian, adventist or whatever? While I think you are correct, I think some are more concerned with conformity...

 

[Adventtruth]

AT if you already know what I believe and think you don't need me to participate in this dialog... continue on without me..... there will be many who are saved who have no idea who Christ is... so no I don't agree with your premise...

peace

And let me kindly ask again Stormy...show me where you get this idea that many will be saved that have no idea of who Christ is? Where is this idea coming from...if its the bible kindly show us here at Christianforums the chapter and verse. IF this is indeed true, I would like to see the source as well

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Faith and belief to call myself a Christian? Not sure what you are asking... I believe in Christ, and that God has done what he needed to do to save humankind.

Care to kindly explain how a person is saved Stormy? You make it sound as if every one will be saved just because of Gods merciful act in Christ.

I have arrived at my opinions because traditional explanations by christians are full of godtalk and meaningless phrases that fail to explain the "big picture."

And I would love for you to give me some of the godtalk and meaningless phrases that fail to explain the "big picture" that I can see where you are coming from. And just what is this big picture stormy?


AT

 

[StormyOne]

And let me kindly ask again Stormy...show me where you get this idea that many will be saved that have no idea of who Christ is? Where is this idea coming from...if its the bible kindly show us here at Christianforums the chapter and verse. IF this is indeed true, I would like to see the source as well

AT

common sense..... at present this planet is populated with over 6 billion people... people are born and die without ever reading a bible, hearing of Christ sacrifice... will those people be saved or lost? I believe in a God that in compassion will save those who never knew about Christ. You may believe differently, so be it...