Sabbath School subject discussion thread

[Adventtruth]

If that is the case, then why do some people get bent out of shape when others don't share the same beliefs as they? To the point that there is some question if they are even christian, adventist or whatever? While I think you are correct, I think some are more concerned with conformity...

Its not so much as believing in Christ Stormy....Its what we believe about Chirst. There is where we find the truth because every thing else flows out of that. I hope you don't find this mere godtalk thats meaningless. I'm serious about understanding just where you are coming from with this idea that people will be saved outside of Christ, when it is clear the Christ is God.

AT

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

And let me kindly ask again Stormy...show me where you get this idea that many will be saved that have no idea of who Christ is? Where is this idea coming from...if its the bible kindly show us here at Christianforums the chapter and verse. IF this is indeed true, I would like to see the source as well

AT

Be a little more clear for us AT, are you saying that Abraham, Joseph, David Solomon and all those other Old testament folks will not be saved? They had no idea who Christ is, no knowledge of the man named Jesus Christ at all, at best some of them may have given a prophetic allusion to Christ but that is far from knowing who Christ is.

In my opinion you are simply taking a verse from the New Testament and interpreting it in a very narrow way that is not likely how it was meant to be understood.

 

[StormyOne]

Care to kindly explain how a person is saved Stormy? You make it sound as if every one will be saved just because of Gods merciful act in Christ.



And I would love for you to give me some of the godtalk and meaningless phrases that fail to explain the "big picture" that I can see where you are coming from. And just what is this big picture stormy?


AT

If you have not grasped the big picture yet AT, all I can say is live long enough and you may.... as for godtalk, its all around you if you are really looking....

In essence yes people are saved because of what God has done... even if they were not aware of it.... if they never become aware of what God has done are they still saved? Yes as far as I am concerned.... you may believe differently....

 

[VictorC]

common sense..... at present this planet is populated with over 6 billion people... people are born and die without ever reading a bible, hearing of Christ sacrifice... will those people be saved or lost? I believe in a God that in compassion will save those who never knew about Christ. You may believe differently, so be it...

I can't reconcile this "many paths" philosophy with the election of saints God has chosen out of the world. Scripture also speaks plainly that the "many paths" is foreign to the Gospel:

Acts 4:10-12
10: Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11: This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12: Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Victor

 

[StormyOne]

I can't reconcile this "many paths" philosophy with the election of saints God has chosen out of the world. Scripture also speaks plainly that the "many paths" is foreign to the Gospel:

Acts 4:10-12
10: Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11: This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12: Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Victor

That's cool Victor, I have not asked you to, however there are so many that have never seen a bible, much less read it, nor have they been made aware of Christ and what he did, it is difficult for me to believe that all those folks will be lost... but that's just me

 

[Adventtruth]

Be a little more clear for us AT, are you saying that Abraham, Joseph, David Solomon and all those other Old testament folks will not be saved? They had no idea who Christ is, no knowledge of the man named Jesus Christ at all, at best some of them may have given a prophetic allusion to Christ but that is far from knowing who Christ is.

RC...did you happen to notice what verb tense I used in that posting?

In my opinion you are simply taking a verse from the New Testament and interpreting it in a very narrow way that is not likely how it was meant to be understood.

And what verse did I use in that passage RC...I don't think I used a passage.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

If you have not grasped the big picture yet AT, all I can say is live long enough and you may.... as for godtalk, its all around you if you are really looking....

Oh come on now stormy...play pretty wont you? Kindly break it down for us here that we can be sure of what you are understanding.

In essence yes people are saved because of what God has done...

But is the gift of faith in Gods merciful act involved?

even if they were not aware of it.... if they never become aware of what God has done are they still saved? Yes as far as I am concerned.... you may believe differently....

So kindly give us the source for this belief??? Thats what I'm after...thats what I want to win from you Stormy...the source!

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

common sense..... at present this planet is populated with over 6 billion people... people are born and die without ever reading a bible, hearing of Christ sacrifice... will those people be saved or lost? I believe in a God that in compassion will save those who never knew about Christ. You may believe differently, so be it...

...Thank you Stormy! Its your own reasoning for sure but not common sense...because its not common to all of us. You have abandoned faith in Gods record of His dealing with mankind and salvation in the light of Christ for your own reasoning....its just as I said in another posting to you yesterday....ralativism and conjecture. If memory serves me correct you got angry with me for saying that, but you have just confirmed it. Thats all I was trying to win from you. I'm done with this topic with you...lets move on.


AT

 

[VictorC]

That's cool Victor, I have not asked you to, however there are so many that have never seen a bible, much less read it, nor have they been made aware of Christ and what he did, it is difficult for me to believe that all those folks will be lost... but that's just me

It wasn't by accident I mentioned the elect of God.
If your computer has access to an electronic concordance (web pages abound if you don't), simply search "elect" in the Bible and look at it's prominence and who this term is applied to.

Then find salvation presented to those who are not elect.
I believe your common sense reasoning is indeed very common, but it does not take into account the sovereignty of God and His ability to bring His message to His elect.

Common sense is carnal, and isn't supported in the Scriptures.
Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD...

Victor

 

[StormyOne]

...Thank you Stormy! Its your own reasoning for sure but not common sense...because its not common to all of us. You have abandoned faith in Gods record of His dealing with mankind and salvation in the light of Christ for your own reasoning....its just as I said in another posting to you yesterday....ralativism and conjecture. If memory serves me correct you got angry with me for saying that, but you have just confirmed it. Thats all I was trying to win from you. I'm done with this topic with you...lets move on.


AT

Angry with you because you believe God will burn those who have never heard of him or what he has done? maybe then, not so much now.... you believe what you will, I believe you are wrong, and the good thing is, time will tell...

As for your suggesting that I don't have common sense and have abandoned faith in God's record, think what you will. I find that insulting and if you cannot disagree without judging and the sort, why not just resist the urge to respond to me.... I will do the same...

 

[StormyOne]

It wasn't by accident I mentioned the elect of God.
If your computer has access to an electronic concordance (web pages abound if you don't), simply search "elect" in the Bible and look at it's prominence and who this term is applied to.

Then find salvation presented to those who are not elect.
I believe your common sense reasoning is indeed very common, but it does not take into account the sovereignty of God and His ability to bring His message to His elect.

Common sense is carnal, and isn't supported in the Scriptures.
Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD...

Victor

As I told AT, time will tell... I understand how you arrived at your conclusion, I just don't share it....

 

[Adventtruth]

Angry with you because you believe God will burn those who have never heard of him or what he has done? maybe then, not so much now.... you believe what you will, I believe you are wrong, and the good thing is, time will tell...

As for your suggesting that I don't have common sense and have abandoned faith in God's record, think what you will. I find that insulting and if you cannot disagree without judging and the sort, why not just resist the urge to respond to me.... I will do the same...

Just to clear a few things up stormy...

1)I thought you where a little upset yesterday because I said it was conjecture and ralativism.


2) I never said you did not have common sense...I said that Idea was not common to all of us, thus its not common sense. I have to agree with Victor on this one...its more like a carnal worldly understanding rather than Christ inspired.

3) It was you who told us that you don't believe the bible to be the written word of God, so I'm only giving back to you what you have already said. How is that judgemental??? Go figure.

4) I do like responding to your posting and have nothing against you personally Stormy...don't get all tied up in a bunch. I just find no need to contiue in this subject with you...You have stated what you believe clearly.

At

 

[moicherie]

So you do understand that looking to the heavens and the stars will not disclose this information to you? The ULTIMATE source of truth for this claim of God/Christ (God in Christ?) is the bible only. Do you believe that?

AT

Ye search the scripture for in them ye think ye have eternal life - yet the people of the Book murdered the One the book was talking about....interesting mindset that still exists....

 

[moicherie]

I can't reconcile this "many paths" philosophy with the election of saints God has chosen out of the world. Scripture also speaks plainly that the "many paths" is foreign to the Gospel:

Acts 4:10-12
10: Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11: This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12: Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Victor

So which part of that text says all humans must personally be aquainted with the name Jesus Christ?

A group of children resuced from a fire do not need to know the name of the firemen in order to be rescued. The act of saving still takes place despite their ignorance.....

 

[moicherie]

...Thank you Stormy! Its your own reasoning for sure but not common sense...because its not common to all of us. You have abandoned faith in Gods record of His dealing with mankind and salvation in the light of Christ for your own reasoning....its just as I said in another posting to you yesterday....ralativism and conjecture. If memory serves me correct you got angry with me for saying that, but you have just confirmed it. Thats all I was trying to win from you. I'm done with this topic with you...lets move on.


AT

God did not record the bible men wrote it. You might as well argue God composed the hymns that we sing in church every week. And I believe the hymn writers were inspired.

 

[VictorC]

As I told AT, time will tell... I understand how you arrived at your conclusion, I just don't share it....

Time has already told, and it's only history that has to catch up to what God has already determined.
Very simply, I don't believe you understand how I arrived at my conclusion.
I am not an authority over the Scriptures, but rather submissive to them.

 

[moicherie]

The same bible you worship says submit to God (See book of James) - ironic huh

 

[VictorC]

So which part of that text says all humans must personally be aquainted with the name Jesus Christ?

How does Acts 4:12 read in your translation?

A group of children resuced from a fire do not need to know the name of the firemen in order to be rescued. The act of saving still takes place despite their ignorance.....

Moicherie, the process you're using sounds like it is related to the works-based "gospel" of Adventism.
The reason I write that is because you imply that these lost children have chosen the fireman saving them.
Hardly accurate.
Rather, the fireman has chosen the children he saves before he even reached out his arms to them.

It is incumbent on you to show that salvation is available to those the Gospel hasn't reached from the Scriptures. In a response to another member, I had mentioned that common sense is carnal, and isn't representative of the means God has established to save His elect.

Hop to it!

Victor

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

RC...did you happen to notice what verb tense I used in that posting?

And what verse did I use in that passage RC...I don't think I used a passage.

AT

Thanks for explaining your position when I asked for you to expand on your statement. I can see you can't respond and think the readers don't know why you are expressing the common Christian tradition that limits God to saving only Christians because there is no other name under heaven whereby man can be saved.

But it is par for the course where those limited by tradition assume that only their position can be accurate and then they demand the others prove their position while they depend upon a narrow interpretation of some unmentioned verses. Of course I know what their verses are and that they are simply used improperly. If you had bothered to think about my earlier post you would have seen the narrow use you are making. But I guess you could not do that, either answer or apply the information.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Originally Posted by moicherie

A group of children resuced from a fire do not need to know the name of the firemen in order to be rescued. The act of saving still takes place despite their ignorance.....
​

Moicherie, the process you're using sounds like it is related to the works-based "gospel" of Adventism.
The reason I write that is because you imply that these lost children have chosen the fireman saving them.
Hardly accurate.

Wow how anyone could read what moicherie wrote and say the is amazing.