Sabbath School subject discussion thread

[StormyOne]

Just to clear a few things up stormy...

1)I thought you where a little upset yesterday because I said it was conjecture and ralativism.


2) I never said you did not have common sense...I said that Idea was not common to all of us, thus its not common sense. I have to agree with Victor on this one...its more like a carnal worldly understanding rather than Christ inspired.

3) It was you who told us that you don't believe the bible to be the written word of God, so I'm only giving back to you what you have already said. How is that judgemental??? Go figure.

4) I do like responding to your posting and have nothing against you personally Stormy...don't get all tied up in a bunch. I just find no need to contiue in this subject with you...You have stated what you believe clearly.

At

whatever.... have a good day...

 

[StormyOne]

Thanks for explaining your position when I asked for you to expand on your statement. I can see you can't respond and think the readers don't know why you are expressing the common Christian tradition that limits God to saving only Christians because there is no other name under heaven whereby man can be saved.

But it is par for the course where those limited by tradition assume that only their position can be accurate and then they demand the others prove their position while they depend upon a narrow interpretation of some unmentioned verses. Of course I know what their verses are and that they are simply used improperly. If you had bothered to think about my earlier post you would have seen the narrow use you are making. But I guess you could not do that, either answer or apply the information.

RC I never realized how steeped in tradition the christian community is until the exchanges in this thread.... like you I know the verses, use to preach them and debate them from the traditional us vs them mindset... it has been quite revealing...

 

[VictorC]

Wow how anyone could read what moicherie wrote and say the is amazing.

This became anchored to the OP, but I recognize what I wrote in it.
My observation is that moicherie thinks that God is going to save people without choosing them.
That has more relation to earning salvation by works than it does the election of grace.

 

[Adventtruth]

Thanks for explaining your position when I asked for you to expand on your statement. I can see you can't respond and think the readers don't know why you are expressing the common Christian tradition that limits God to saving only Christians because there is no other name under heaven whereby man can be saved.

But it is par for the course where those limited by tradition assume that only their position can be accurate and then they demand the others prove their position while they depend upon a narrow interpretation of some unmentioned verses. Of course I know what their verses are and that they are simply used improperly. If you had bothered to think about my earlier post you would have seen the narrow use you are making. But I guess you could not do that, either answer or apply the information.

OK RC...I'll give you the floor. Kindly show me in the bible or any other document you have that shows that God in Christ saves humanity out side of Christ today.

I'll be waiting for this information. All of us who are interested in this info will be looking for this.

Or is this more of your own reasoning as well? Is this your conjecture RC? Is this your truth that is relative to your beliefs? If so, kindly tell us now. You have the floor.


AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Whats revealing is how many people run on delussion, conjecture and relativism, and can't defend their positions from any source other than their own imagination, and then call them selves Christians, but refuse to believe the testimony of the book that claims it is about the same person they claim to follow.

AT

 

[StormyOne]

Whats revealing is how many people run on delussion, conjecture and relativism, and can't defend their positions from any source other than their own imagination, and then call them selves Christians, but refuse to believe the testimony of the book that claims it is about the same person they claim to follow.

AT

Don't get bent because some folks have opted not to believe as you do... you like the "us vs them" theme so I am sure you are patting yourself on the back that you are not like "those" people who are delusional, deal in conjecture and relativism....

I am sure it just gets your goat that some folks claim to be christian yet don't do "christianity" as you have chosen to do it.... whats next AT are you praying for Christ to quickly come so that those you feel are soiling the christian name can be cast into the lake of fire?

 

[Adventtruth]

Don't get bent because some folks have opted not to believe as you do... you like the "us vs them" theme so I am sure you are patting yourself on the back that you are not like "those" people who are delusional, deal in conjecture and relativism....

Why should I...I am no better than you. I still sin. Kindly understand that I am not that thin skined.

I am sure it just gets your goat that some folks claim to be christian yet don't do "christianity" as you have chosen to do it.... whats next AT are you praying for Christ to quickly come so that those you feel are soiling the christian name can be cast into the lake of fire?

As I said above...why should I feel that way Stormy. Now if you start talking about my mama, I might come after you, but if a person wants to live in conjecture and relativism let them have their cake and eat it to. So have at it my friend. I still have nothing personal against you or RC....I like you guys, but I know what you will say....what ever!


You still can't defend your position from sources.

AT

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

OK RC...I'll give you the floor. Kindly show me in the bible or any other document you have that shows that God in Christ saves humanity out side of Christ today.

I'll be waiting for this information. All of us who are interested in this info will be looking for this.

Or is this more of your own reasoning as well? Is this your conjecture RC? Is this your truth that is relative to your beliefs? If so, kindly tell us now. You have the floor.


AT

Now that is quite different from your previous statement, the one where you told me to pay attention to the verb tense, where you said:

Originally Posted by Adventtruth

And let me kindly ask again Stormy...show me where you get this idea that many will be saved that have no idea of who Christ is? Where is this idea coming from...if its the bible kindly show us here at Christianforums the chapter and verse. IF this is indeed true, I would like to see the source as well

AT
​

I don't subscribe to your assumption that God saves "in Chirst", I hold to God saves, in Christ is the description of God manifestation incarnate and the expression of reconciliation between God and man. In other words God saves, He can save people in the Old testament just as well as He can save those who have never heard of Christ but live to the revelation of God however revealed to them in their conscience. I have pointed this out before but this is Biblical.

Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

That last phrase is interesting because it points to God judging through Jesus Christ, the same Jesus Christ who promised a thief on the cross that he would be with Christ in paradise, the same Jesus who forgave even those who tortured and killed Him.

Quite different from the exlusivity that many want to insert upon God's gift of salvation.

 

[StormyOne]

Why should I...I am no better than you. I still sin. Kindly understand that I am not that thin skined.



As I said above...why should I feel that way Stormy. Now if you start talking about my mama, I might come after you, but if a person wants to live in conjecture and relativism let them have their cake and eat it to. So have at it my friend. I still have nothing personal against you or RC....I like you guys, but I know what you will say....what ever!


You still can't defend your position from sources.

AT

you don't get it... as an adult I don't have to defend my position from sources to anyone.... as I am not trying to convince you to believe what I believe I am under no obligation to prove anything... I shared my views simple as that.....

You believe you have "defended" your position with sources, yet at least 2 people believe you are misinterpreting those sources, so much for defending..... if you are comfortable with your belief system then what's the problem?

 

[moicherie]

Wow how anyone could read what moicherie wrote and say the is amazing.

Amazing indeed!

 

[moicherie]

Wow how anyone could read what moicherie wrote and say the is amazing.

perhaps my English is coming across as Klingon?

 

[moicherie]

This became anchored to the OP, but I recognize what I wrote in it.
My observation is that moicherie thinks that God is going to save people without choosing them.
That has more relation to earning salvation by works than it does the election of grace.

your observation abilties needs work.

 

[moicherie]

Whats revealing is how many people run on delussion, conjecture and relativism, and can't defend their positions from any source other than their own imagination, and then call them selves Christians, but refuse to believe the testimony of the book that claims it is about the same person they claim to follow.

AT

Sorry being a Christian aka being Christlike has nothing to do with thinking just like AT. The Borg mentality does not a Christian make. The Bible helps one to know God. Now if you personally choose to make it your only source of information then fine but don't hate cos others think differently from you.

 

[VictorC]

your observation abilties needs work.

Well, thanks.
I await your Scriptural answer for a multiple-selection means of salvation, while I brush up on my observation capabilities

 

[Adventtruth]

….God saves, He can save people in the Old testament just as well as He can save those who have never heard of Christ but live to the revelation of God however revealed to them in their conscience. I have pointed this out before but this is Biblical.

Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
That last phrase is interesting because it points to God judging through Jesus Christ, the same Jesus Christ who promised a thief on the cross that he would be with Christ in paradise, the same Jesus who forgave even those who tortured and killed Him.

Quite different from the exlusivity that many want to insert upon God's gift of

salvation.


RC I asked you to supply the text that show God saves outside of Christ and you have yet to do so. It’s interesting that you would isolate this text as to make it stand on its own, thus make it say what you would have it to say. But a good reading of the context into chapter 1 would manifest what Paul’s real intent was by using such language. Before we look at what was really said from the context let me give you a few reasons why this passage (Rom 2:14-16) is not saying what you say: that God saves those who never heard of Christ.


1) No one is saved by works.

2) Gentiles have not the law, but show the works of the law which is wrath! (Rom 4:15)

3) The text you supplied shows Judgment according to works.

4) There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8: 1)

5) The thief on the cross was saved by faith apart from the works of the law.

6) Those that have law will be judged by it.

7) The heathen or gentile who has not the law will be judged according to the light of conscience and not by grace, in the last days by Christ Jesus.

8) Condemnation and Justification are contray to one another.



(Rom 1:16-17)For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Paul In addressing the Roman Church that consisted of Jews and perhaps even more Gentiles, has just put forth the notion that it is the gospel of God in Christ, and faith in that gospel that enables one to secure salvation by grace alone through faith. He establishes and qualifies that all men…Jew and Greek (gentile) are entitled to behold and partake of the righteousness of God that is reveal only through faith by saying that every one that believeth .

(Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This wrath is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. Paul here is proving that sense Gods righteousness is through faith as stated in verse 16-17, and that men have no righteousness of their own, then all men stand under condemnation of God. God’s punishment is against sin, and all who have not Christ fall under sin and are subject to wrath. And that includes the gentile who have not the law, who have there conscience accusing them or defending them. Now RC how are you going to argue against this truth from the bible…you can reason your way around it, or you can receive this truth from the bible.

In Chapter two, Paul understanding the Jew, knowing that they thought that they had a covenant relationship with God through the promise made with Abraham, in that He would be Abrahams God and his seeds after him…. but not as individuals, but as a whole nation or community. They though this connection was secure by observing the law and circumcision.

Rom 2:1-31 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?


I’m sure I don’t have to tell you that Jew’s thought they where free from the judgments of God, and wanted God to judge the Gentile. Paul here is letting them know that Gods judgment according to works will be fair…to the Jew first as well as the Gentile. They thought God would judge them according to their national relationship with Him….they thought as a whole they where in the safety zone. But Paul is quick to help them understand if they judge the heathen; they themselves are to be judged as well, being destitute of Gods righteousness without real faith.

Rom 2:4-6Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Here we see what happens when those who abuse the goodness of God that leads to repentance. (Keep in mind that Paul is showing the Roman Church Gods judgment according to work.) They store up wrath for themselves…God then judges according to works, because they are free of grace through a lack of faith. They are not judged because of there profession but according to there works.

Roman2:7-11To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12


Now what are we to make of these remarks by Paul? Is he teaching that salvation is by work? Has Paul just disqualified all his teachings on justification by grace alone through faith alone apart from works? No…keep in mind the context. Paul is only declaring what a divine judgment according to works will bring out. This is what the Jews where clinging to for justification by God, Judgment according to works. So Paul was merely exposing their flaws because of there rejection of that righteousness that was provided through the gospel.

(Romans 2:12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13

This passage is clear to understand RC. And you excluded it from you text in your posting as to make your text stand alone. Do you see the word perish in the text? Does your text make void this text? Those who sin without law….That would be the whole gentile community. They will perish is clear, and what you and Stormy are saying that God saves apart from Chirst...That those who have not heard of Christ are saved, can’t be confirmed from the bible as being the correct view… They will perish without the law, unless they trust Christ by faith alone. It is the Jewish nation that has law and will be judged by that law, being free of grace through a lack of faith.


(Romans 2:14-16)For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their consciencec also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Finally your passage. The gentile believer has not the Mosaic Law, or the Ten Commandments. But they become a law to themselves seeing they have the light or law of nature within them. They understand what is right and wrong because the bible declares that their conscience bears witness and the thoughts are accusing or excusing one another. Now if we stick to the context of chapter one, we know that these gentiles held the truth in unrighteousness. If we look to the immediate context of verse 12 we see that they perish without law. But they do have the light of nature and a sense of what is right and wrong. If they do what is right, it is not in a love relationship with God and is worthless for salvation. The work of the law is to point out right and wrong actions and to declare wrath for disobedience.

The context suggest Paul had something else in mind and not what you say.

You have failed at your attempt to supply scripture to support you theory that God saves man outside of Christ RC.


AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Sorry being a Christian aka being Christlike has nothing to do with thinking just like AT. The Borg mentality does not a Christian make. The Bible helps one to know God. Now if you personally choose to make it your only source of information then fine but don't hate cos others think differently from you.

Hate? don't think I hate dear lady....And its not that those who reject the bible don't think like me....its that they don't think like the bible.


AT

 

[StormyOne]

Hate? don't think I hate dear lady....And its not that those who reject the bible don't think like me....its that they don't think like the bible.


AT

and neither do you.... unless you are suggesting that you are thinking like people did in the first century and earlier.....

 

[sentipente]

You have failed at your attempt to supply scripture to support you theory that God saves man outside of Christ RC.

That is true only if you can show that you have the authority to determine exactly what is included in scripture. I submit that you have a rather inadequate view of what scripture is.

 

[sentipente]

I asked you to supply the text that show God saves outside of Christ and you have yet to do so.

1 Timothy 4:9-10: This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Adventtruth]

That is true only if you can show that you have the authority to determine exactly what is included in scripture. I submit that you have a rather inadequate view of what scripture is.

Well lets kindly look to 2 Tim 3:16 for the word scripture and then look to Thayers for the definition of the word. Will that be authority enough for you?

G1124
γραφή
graphē
Thayer Definition:
1) a writing, thing written
2) the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
3) a certain portion or section of the Holy Scripture
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity
Citing in TDNT: 1:749, 128

AT