Sabbath School subject discussion thread

[RC_NewProtestants]

Now from that paragragh I can gather a few things about you:

1) That you attributed many assumption to me that I never laid claim to. (You accused me of doing this to you, but you did it to me first)

The phrase "you can assume" does not in itself indicate that it is what the reader assumes, it is one of the possible assumptions that can be found (assumptions that we can easily see in various Christians today). As far as you capability to gather anything about me I think you are seeing what you want to see. It is how you have processed information so far, often incorrectly but one would never know if from your own descriptions.

I will freely admit I don't interpret texts the way you do. So since you only consider your view proper and godly, most likely because that is what your tradition has taught you. You can be assured that I don't believe in those texts the way you likely believe them. But as you have a hard time with a simply English expression such as "you can assume", it is doubtful that your comprehension of Bible texts is any better. So ultimately you are left with only your tradition as you are unable to dig deeper...and that is a shame.

 

[Adventtruth]

The phrase "you can assume" does not in itself indicate that it is what the reader assumes, it is one of the possible assumptions that can be found (assumptions that we can easily see in various Christians today).

Thats complete hog wash my friend, that was not a general statement...you addressed and refered to no one but me with that statement. The context suggest none of what you are saying and are now trying to cover your tail. But this is nothing new with you...you have been shown to do this before.

As far as you capability to gather anything about me I think you are seeing what you want to see. It is how you have processed information so far, often incorrectly but one would never know if from your own descriptions.

I will freely admit I don't interpret texts the way you do. So since you only consider your view proper and godly, most likely because that is what your tradition has taught you. You can be assured that I don't believe in those texts the way you likely believe them. But as you have a hard time with a simply English expression such as "you can assume", it is doubtful that your comprehension of Bible texts is any better. So ultimately you are left with only your tradition as you are unable to dig deeper...and that is a shame.

Ok Ron....lets see. The following passage is Isa 53. Kindly tell me if you see the idea of substitution in the passage, or if you can gather that Christ was our vacarious substitute for our sins. Oh and by the way....my tradition as you like to call it was SDA for 20 years. Then a little less than 2 years ago I left her to her false doctrines. Thats the only tradition I ever had. I was a complete heathen before Adventism. I never came out of the tradition to which I assume you are referring...care to tell me what tradition it is? I'll be waiting for that.

(Isa 53:1) Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
(Isa 53:2) For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
(Isa 53:3) He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
(Isa 53:4) Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
(Isa 53:5) But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.
(Isa 53:6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(Isa 53:7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
(Isa 53:8) By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
(Isa 53:9) And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
(Isa 53:10) Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
(Isa 53:11) Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
(Isa 53:12) Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.


AT

 

[StormyOne]

of course AT you are assuming that Isaiah wrote the verses you have shared.... there is some debate about that... some scholars have suggested based on their examination of the linguistic styles that Isaiah chaps 41 thru 66 were written by someone else who lived 200 yrs after the original Isaiah.... significant issues if that is the case....

 

[Adventtruth]

of course AT you are assuming that Isaiah wrote the verses you have shared.... there is some debate about that... some scholars have suggested based on their examination of the linguistic styles that Isaiah chaps 41 thru 66 were written by someone else who lived 200 yrs after the original Isaiah.... significant issues if that is the case....

Yes Stormy...I am aware of the argument about a second Isaiah who was not the original author of the first sectioin of the book, and im not believing the 200 year thing...I don't buy it. There is a prophecy in the second section about Cyrus (45:1-4) freeing Israel from the Babylonian captivity. Adventist aught to know the story well about the Meds and Pershians coming in through water and taking Babylon. While there are said to be some grammatical and vocabulary differences in the two sections, I don't think they make a stronger argument than the writer of the second book mentioning by name a king who would free Israel two centuries before it happened. I believe in the insperation of the bible.

AT

 

[StormyOne]

Yes Stormy...I am aware of the argument about a second Isaiah who was not the original author of the first sectioin of the book, and im not believing the 200 year thing...I don't buy it. There is a prophecy in the second section about Cyrus (45:1-4) freeing Israel from the Babylonian captivity. Adventist aught to know the story well about the Meds and Pershians coming in through water and taking Babylon. While there are said to be some grammatical and vocabulary differences in the two sections, I don't think they make a stronger argument than the writer of the second book mentioning by name a king who would free Israel two centuries before it happened. I believe in the insperation of the bible.

AT

never heard of editing have you.... or editors cobbling together the right pieces to tell a particular story... While I am not sure what you read regarding this issue, the information I read is much stronger than what you purport here.... however, consider the fact that people can be inspired and be wrong too....

 

[Adventtruth]

never heard of editing have you.... or editors cobbling together the right pieces to tell a particular story... While I am not sure what you read regarding this issue, the information I read is much stronger than what you purport here.... however, consider the fact that people can be inspired and be wrong too....

Thats why I dont by that it was written by another. In college this was covered. I've read the arguments of some of the critics. There are many more problems that lead to ones rejection of the sufficiency of scripture if they look at and believe all that is said by some well known bible critics of these ancient manuscrips. For every one negative scholar and critic, there are two positive scholars of the same text. I look to the supernatural in most cases. I trust by faith alone in Christ contained in His gospel. For the most point these matters of who wrote and when and how are side issues that can't add or subtact from ones salvation by Grace alone throug Christ alone. You and I disagree for the most part about these side issues, but I'm sure you trust by grace alone in His atoning sacrifice, But thanks for the kind argument Stormy


AT

 

[StormyOne]

not a problem AT... I enjoy peaceful disagreement... have a great weekend...

 

[Cribstyl]

of course AT you are assuming that Isaiah wrote the verses you have shared.... there is some debate about that... some scholars have suggested based on their examination of the linguistic styles that Isaiah chaps 41 thru 66 were written by someone else who lived 200 yrs after the original Isaiah.... significant issues if that is the case....

Hmmm, Why would Jesus publicly read and quote from Isa 61?Isa 61:1The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;


Luk 4:17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

The OT is the most trusted and used literiture in all the world for over 3 thousand years.

CRIB

 

[Adventtruth]

Hmmm, Why would Jesus publicly read and quote from Isa 61?Isa 61:1The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;


Luk 4:17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

The OT is the most trusted and used literiture in all the world for over 3 thousand years.

CRIB

CRIB I agree with you. There are many arguments that can be made from that book alone that its all one author. For you and I its not an issue at all.

AT

 

[StormyOne]

Hmmm, Why would Jesus publicly read and quote from Isa 61?Isa 61:1The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;


Luk 4:17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

The OT is the most trusted and used literiture in all the world for over 3 thousand years.

CRIB

sure... if that works for you, the assumption being that what was recorded Jesus actually spoke... trusted and used still doesn't mean authentic...

 

[StormyOne]

CRIB I agree with you. There are many arguments that can be made from that book alone that its all one author. For you and I its not an issue at all.

AT

I wouldn't expect that it would be.... to each his own though, and that is the good thing...

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

sure... if that works for you, the assumption being that what was recorded Jesus actually spoke... trusted and used still doesn't mean authentic...

The argument that Jesus quotes from the Old Testament does not mean it is an endorsement of that quote being a literal historical event. It could just as easily be used to teach something that He wanted to teach using something that was culturally relevant to them. Jesus used the story of a seed dying in the ground, He did not try to explain to them that a seed actually does not die when it is planted or that a seed which is actually scientifically dead does not grow anything. His purpose was to teach them about God not to correct scientific or historical inaccuracies.

 

[StormyOne]

The argument that Jesus quotes from the Old Testament does not mean it is an endorsement of that quote being a literal historical event. It could just as easily be used to teach something that He wanted to teach using something that was culturally relevant to them. Jesus used the story of a seed dying in the ground, He did not try to explain to them that a seed actually does not die when it is planted or that a seed which is actually scientifically dead does not grow anything. His purpose was to teach them about God not to correct scientific or historical inaccuracies.

agreed RC, however the other issue is how much "faith" people specifically my friends AT and Crib put into the idea that the bible is literal and is the written "word of God..."

 

[Adventtruth]

Hey RC what about my question about Isa 53 ?

AT

 

[Cribstyl]

When Jesus said "the law and the prophets..", what part of these Hebrew text that we should not trust is God's word?




Mat 11:13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Mat 22:40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Luk 16:16The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luk 24:44And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Jhn 1:45Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Act 13:15And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, [Ye] men [and] brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

Act 24:14But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Act 28:23And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

Rom 3:21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;



Christianity is based on faith in God's record of His Son.


1Jo 5:10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

 

[StormyOne]

only one problem.... God didn't write it....

 

[Adventtruth]

Oh Brother!

AT

 

[StormyOne]

Oh Brother!

AT

of course you knew that's what I was going to say....

 

[Cribstyl]

only one problem.... God didn't write it....

Stormy...er,errrrr....Are you a Christian? What do you believe?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Hey RC what about my question about Isa 53 ?

AT

I don't recall your question