Russia and Ukraine - why?

[All4Christ]

Cause his holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is now in schism right? This is the most objective take on this as the MP enjoys great support in the church?

Well, I wasn’t referring to this situation in particular. Both patriarchates are canonical, so it isn’t to the level of the Ukrainian schismatic Churches. I meant that there were certainly families that were fully Orthodox, who happened to be a part of the Ukrainian Churches that were split off from the canonical Orthodox Church. It’s sad that they experience the consequences of what happened with leadership. Certainly some likely supported both sides, but some were just Orthodox faithful beforehand.

It’s somewhat different than what happened with heresies of the past. If a person teaches heresy and others consciously join that person and affirm that heresy...that’s a different situation.

I can’t speak to what will happen in the future. As of now, however, the situation is the same as Antioch and Jerusalem- on a bigger scale of impact, since it is the EP and the Russian Church.

 

[Ioannes]

basically, Constantinople didn't have the right to lift the anathema

I think this should cut any debate for good. But where can I read more on this? I need proof that the Patriarch of Costantinople doesn't have such a right, and if so in what context can this Anathema be removed legitimately.
Thank you

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think this should cut any debate for good. But where can I read more on this? I need proof that the Patriarch of Costantinople doesn't have such a right, and if so in what context can this Anathema be removed legitimately.
Thank you

Ukraine was not his territory. plus canon V of Nicaea.

 

[All4Christ]

Concerning those, whether of the clergy or of the laity, who have been excommunicated in the several provinces, let the provision of the canon be observed by the bishops which provides that persons cast out by some be not readmitted by others. Nevertheless, inquiry should be made whether they have been excommunicated through captiousness, or contentiousness, or any such like ungracious disposition in the bishop. And, that this matter may have due investigation, it is decreed that in every province synods shall be held twice a year, in order that when all the bishops of the province are assembled together, such questions may by them be thoroughly examined, that so those who have confessedly offended against their bishop, may be seen by all to be for just cause excommunicated, until it shall seem fit to a general meeting of the bishops to pronounce a milder sentence upon them. And let these synods be held, the one before Lent, (that the pure Gift may be offered to God after all bitterness has been put away), and let the second be held about autumn.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Is it just me - or is it odd that the people up high have issues and break communion, and then the common folk that get along are supposed to break ties?

I don't think anyone expects people to break ties.

IF it progresses to the point where the laity are told to refrain (which has now happened for those under Moscow) ... they simply can't be sacramentally involved with those under the EP, as I understand it.

It could be hard on them if there is no other parish available where they could receive the Sacraments, or in the case mentioned above if someone was about to become a godparent (even that can vary a bit as I've seen different requirements in some jurisdictions where more than one godparent is allowed).

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not really, but I have to admit I had hoped for Patriarch Kirill to excommunicate Patriarch Bartholomew and leave it as that.

It is my understanding that he wouldn't have the authority alone to do that?

I think a synod of bishops can correct or remove a hierarch if necessary. But I don't think one can simply kick another out of the Church?

 

[All4Christ]

It is my understanding that he wouldn't have the authority alone to do that?

I think a synod of bishops can correct or remove a hierarch if necessary. But I don't think one can simply kick another out of the Church?

Well....didn’t they do that with the schism? Between Rome and the East?

 

[All4Christ]

It is my understanding that he wouldn't have the authority alone to do that?

I think a synod of bishops can correct or remove a hierarch if necessary. But I don't think one can simply kick another out of the Church?

I’m referencing excommunicating them, not removing them.

 

[Ioannes]

Ukraine was not his territory. plus canon V of Nicaea.

I'm just trying to be your opponent in order to fully understand your argument.
Since the canon says one should discuss a supposedly mis-anathematized person with the other Bishops at a "synod", could anyone claim that Bartholomew legitimately did just that?
I'm just guessing maybe that could be someone's defence for Bartholomew.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm just trying to be your opponent in order to fully understand your argument.
Since the canon says one should discuss a supposedly mis-anathematized person with the other Bishops at a "synod", could anyone claim that Bartholomew legitimately did just that?
I'm just guessing maybe that could be someone's defence for Bartholomew.

except that HAH didn't do that. many Patriarchs called for a Synod to deal with Ukraine, but he did it unilaterally anyway.

 

[All4Christ]

I'm just trying to be your opponent in order to fully understand your argument.
Since the canon says one should discuss a supposedly mis-anathematized person with the other Bishops at a "synod", could anyone claim that Bartholomew legitimately did just that?
I'm just guessing maybe that could be someone's defence for Bartholomew.

Like Fr Matt said, he should have called a synod and done it that way. Honestly, the canons say that there should be two synods no matter what to review excommunications as a general group of bishops. He still should have called a synod to review it instead of just removing them.

 

[All4Christ]

I'm just trying to be your opponent in order to fully understand your argument.
Since the canon says one should discuss a supposedly mis-anathematized person with the other Bishops at a "synod", could anyone claim that Bartholomew legitimately did just that?
I'm just guessing maybe that could be someone's defence for Bartholomew.

You can make a case for him granting Ukraine autocephaly rather than Russia. The removing of Anathemas without a synod, however, doesn’t have a good defense behind it.

That said, I don’t think we should split because of it....not without a larger council of all the Churches.

 

[FenderTL5]

Wasn't this on the agenda for discussion in Crete?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well....didn’t they do that with the schism? Between Rome and the East?

I’m referencing excommunicating them, not removing them.

That's why all the question marks and "my understanding".

I know it's been done. But ... does one bishop (or hierarch) have the authority to actually cut off another hierarch (and all faithful under him) from the Body?

Like you, I'm really not much wanting to concern myself with such things. But since things are going on and there is discussion, just looking to understand to some degree.

I might should have worded my post more carefully. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[All4Christ]

That's why all the question marks and "my understanding".

I know it's been done. But ... does one bishop (or hierarch) have the authority to actually cut off another hierarch (and all faithful under him) from the Body?

Like you, I'm really not much wanting to concern myself with such things. But since things are going on and there is discussion, just looking to understand to some degree.

I might should have worded my post more carefully. Thanks for bringing it up.

The whole thing is quite confusing to me

 

[Ioannes]

That said, I don’t think we should split because of it....not without a larger council of all the Churches.

I see. Well I wasn't glad with the ROCs response and the results we see now are pretty bad. Mount Athos is just one of such outcomes.

 

[All4Christ]

I see. Well I wasn't glad with the ROCs response and the results we see now are pretty bad. Mount Athos is just one of such outcomes.

I agree with that. The whole thing was handled poorly imho. We should be using the pan-Orthodox councils more rather than individual actions.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You can make a case for him granting Ukraine autocephaly rather than Russia. The removing of Anathemas without a synod, however, doesn’t have a good defense behind it.

That said, I don’t think we should split because of it....not without a larger council of all the Churches.

what case could be made for granting autocephaly?

 

[All4Christ]

what case could be made for granting autocephaly?

I’ve read (and it could be false...I’m not an expert) that the 1600 resolution was considered (by the EP) to be economia for that time and that the EP is traditionally in charge of granting autocephaly as part of his role...which is why the EP doesn’t recognize the OCA as autocephalous. If (and I’m not saying it is true) that the 1600 resolution was considered to be out of economia, then the EP could consider it to be his prerogative to grant autocephaly.

The GOARCH website has an article about it.

 

[All4Christ]

Regarding the granting of Autocephaly to the Church of Ukraine - 2018 - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America