Russia and Ukraine - why?

Markie Boy

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So I'm trying to catch up here - why the rift in the Orthodox Church? I read the EP gave Ukraine independence, and Russia does not like that, so they cut ties.

All I am reading this seems to be about power and control. I have not read anything about doctrine that's an issue, is there something about Christian practice that's the issue, or is this just a power thing?

The whole power and control issue is something that deeply disturbs me with Catholicism, as it's focus is often to serve man, not God.
 

timewerx

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Two major religions in the world actually have political agendas. At least two of these is Judaism and Islam.

Judaism/Zionism, Islam, and Christianity all belong to the "Abrahamic Religions" therefore, it's not suprising if some sects of Christianity have political agendas too.
 
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HTacianas

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So I'm trying to catch up here - why the rift in the Orthodox Church? I read the EP gave Ukraine independence, and Russia does not like that, so they cut ties.

All I am reading this seems to be about power and control. I have not read anything about doctrine that's an issue, is there something about Christian practice that's the issue, or is this just a power thing?

The whole power and control issue is something that deeply disturbs me with Catholicism, as it's focus is often to serve man, not God.

It stems from nationalism. Read the history of the Macedonian Orthodox Church for an example.

But the Ukrainian Church, being part of Ukraine, has a bad history with the Russian Church. The Russian Church was once infiltrated by the Soviet secret police. The purges under Stalin were so hard on Ukraine that many Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis as liberators during world war II.

It is a long ugly story but none of it is doctrinal.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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It is a long ugly story but none of it is doctrinal.

Which is why I'm not put of by any of it. Unlike so many other churches there are no major size doctrinal disagreements present in the church today.
 
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All4Christ

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Honestly, as much as possible, I try to avoid anything politics related or ecclesiastical conflicts, as I have unity in my personal experience with all the Orthodox Churches in my area and since I know there is complete unity of faith. I have so much to work on personally, and to focus on all of that distracts me from what is most important.

That said, this truly distresses me due to the potential impact to communion here of the fellow laity, priests, and bishops, both in the GOARCH and Russian (and potentially OCA), who have not done anything to deserve breaking of Eucharistic communion. It won’t break our spiritual communion though, as we all are canonical churches, despite the division.

Ultimately, if there are significant doctrinal differences, it is false unity. That’s even more important to me than ecclesiastical issues. Ultimately, our Head is Christ...and the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Orthodox Church, even if leadership has issues.
 
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Ok, so it's time for a dumb question. I attend a Serbian parish. About five blocks from us is a Greek parish. My understanding is that they're under the EP as their patriarch, right? So, since they're out of communion with the Russians, that wouldn't affect how my parish interfaces with the Greek parish, right? (I'm guessing NO)

My parish (Serb) is super close and friendly with the Greeks. We do many things with them throughout the year...
 
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ArmyMatt

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Ok, so it's time for a dumb question. I attend a Serbian parish. About five blocks from us is a Greek parish. My understanding is that they're under the EP as their patriarch, right? So, since they're out of communion with the Russians, that wouldn't affect how my parish interfaces with the Greek parish, right? (I'm guessing NO)

My parish (Serb) is super close and friendly with the Greeks. We do many things with them throughout the year...

not until your Synod says communion has been broken
 
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Is it just me - or is it odd that the people up high have issues and break communion, and then the common folk that get along are supposed to break ties?

Not really, but I have to admit I had hoped for Patriarch Kirill to excommunicate Patriarch Bartholomew and leave it as that. To have a full scale schism is very unfortunate imho.
Being on my way into the church I have to admit this adds extra stress to it all
 
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Phronema

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Not really, but I have to admit I had hoped for Patriarch Kirill to excommunicate Patriarch Bartholomew and leave it as that. To have a full scale schism is very unfortunate imho.
Being on my way into the church I have to admit this adds extra stress to it all

Don't let it bother you. In time it will pass. This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened, and unfortunately it's likely not the last. I'm just continuing on the path that I was on before, and praying to Christ for unity.
 
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MariaJLM

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Most of it is political. I think Ukraine has a right to their own church, but the way the church authorities went about it was pretty skewed, imo. Plus Filaret himself is sketchy. All that aside, though, I think it's sad how us laypeople are the ones suffering for it. Just yesterday I was talking to somebody who was scheduled to become a godfather in a few days, but now he can't because of the sudden break in communion. Not to mention the effect this will all have on pan-Orthodox events...
 
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E.C.

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You have three groups in Ukraine. One split by nationalists in the 1920s, one by nationalists in the mid 1990s and the third that remained part of the Russian Church.

The mid 90s group was excommunicated by Russian Church for promoting nationalism. That group and the 1920s group have been recognized as legitimate, kosher, accepted, etc by Constantinople. They are not Orthodox. The Western media, like BBC, fails to distinguish between the different groups which leads to misinformation.
 
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MariaJLM

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You have three groups in Ukraine. One split by nationalists in the 1920s, one by nationalists in the mid 1990s and the third that remained part of the Russian Church.

The mid 90s group was excommunicated by Russian Church for promoting nationalism. That group and the 1920s group have been recognized as legitimate, kosher, accepted, etc by Constantinople. They are not Orthodox. The Western media, like BBC, fails to distinguish between the different groups which leads to misinformation.

Ironically, most schismatic groups actually preserve the faith quite well except for the fact they're, you know, in schism. Based on that alone I can't really call such groups non-Orthodox. They would be 100% Orthodox if they were willing to come into full communion with the wider church.
 
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buzuxi02

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Ironically, most schismatic groups actually preserve the faith quite well except for the fact they're, you know, in schism. Based on that alone I can't really call such groups non-Orthodox. They would be 100% Orthodox if they were willing to come into full communion with the wider church.
Actually there are some shady practises in this church. For example the video where this Patriatch Filaret is being prayed over by a shaman priest. And other odd gatherings with uniates.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Ironically, most schismatic groups actually preserve the faith quite well except for the fact they're, you know, in schism. Based on that alone I can't really call such groups non-Orthodox. They would be 100% Orthodox if they were willing to come into full communion with the wider church.

except that to be Orthodox you must be in the Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy is not simply a set of beliefs and practices that one holds to, no matter how tightly.

there is no such thing as a schismatic Orthodox Christian.
 
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E.C.

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Problem with schismatics is that they get excommunicated. They're outside of the Orthodox Church by that point. They are no more Orthodox than Pope Francis. Sure, they may worship using St John Chrysostom's Divine Liturgy, call Mary the Theotokos, and, have bishops and priests; however there's more than those externals that make Orthodoxy Orthodoxy. You're either a part of the Church or you're not. Schismatics are like limbs falling from a tree; they're not part of the body anymore.
 
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All4Christ

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Problem with schismatics is that they get excommunicated. They're outside of the Orthodox Church by that point. They are no more Orthodox than Pope Francis. Sure, they may worship using St John Chrysostom's Divine Liturgy, call Mary the Theotokos, and, have bishops and priests; however there's more than those externals that make Orthodoxy Orthodoxy. You're either a part of the Church or you're not. Schismatics are like limbs falling from a tree; they're not part of the body anymore.
The sad thing is when the laity are excommunicated due to actions of those above them. Then they have to choose to stay in schism or leave their church family. Obviously, it’s most important to stay in the Church, but it’s not a good thing that people have to choose.
 
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The sad thing is when the laity are excommunicated due to actions of those above them. Then they have to choose to stay in schism or leave their church family. Obviously, it’s most important to stay in the Church, but it’s not a good thing that people have to choose.

Cause his holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is now in schism right? This is the most objective take on this as the MP enjoys great support in the church?
 
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