Russia and Ukraine - why?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

what case could be made for granting autocephaly?

The question is WHO has the right to grant it...

 

[ArmyMatt]

I’ve read (and it could be false...I’m not an expert) that the 1600 resolution was considered (by the EP) to be economia for that time and that the EP is traditionally in charge of granting autocephaly as part of his role...which is why the EP doesn’t recognize the OCA as autocephalous. If (and I’m not saying it is true) that the 1600 resolution was considered to be out of economia, then the EP could consider it to be his prerogative to grant autocephaly.

The GOARCH website has an article about it.

yeah, that's what they say. however, Georgia was initially granted autocephaly by Antioch way back in the day.

so it's the mother Church, who evangelized you, which grants it. so for Ukraine, it should be Russia since they are under Russia.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The question is WHO has the right to grant it...

see above, that area's Mother Church which was often, but not always, Constantinople.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

see above, that area's Mother Church which was often, but not always, Constantinople.

988...Kiev...Russia but now? By whom in 988? Someone always is the Mother until you get to 1st Century Jerusalem

 

[ArmyMatt]

988...Kiev...Russia but now? By whom in 988? Someone always is the Mother until you get to 1st Century Jerusalem

yes, and the tomos was given to Moscow after Kiev was incorporated into that kingdom

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

yes, and the tomos was given to Moscow after Kiev was incorporated into that kingdom

But now? Do only Patriarchal boundaries matter or do shifting political and more importantly geographical boundaries play into it too? Or should they?

 

[All4Christ]

yeah, that's what they say. however, Georgia was initially granted autocephaly by Antioch way back in the day.

so it's the mother Church, who evangelized you, which grants it. so for Ukraine, it should be Russia since they are under Russia.

Sounds like this should be addressed at a council to get everyone on the same page. It’s strange then that they don’t recognize us as autocephalous. It’d be a good topic to address universally, as it apparently causes problems with different interpretations.

 

[FenderTL5]

Sounds like this should be addressed at a council to get everyone on the same page. It’s strange then that they don’t recognize us as autocephalous. It’d be a good topic to address universally, as it apparently causes problems with different interpretations.

I'll ask again, wasn't this one of the bullet points that was supposed to be addressed at the Council in Crete in 2016?
My cursory reading of the agenda indicates that it was.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But now? Do only Patriarchal boundaries matter or do shifting political and more importantly geographical boundaries play into it too? Or should they?

Patriarchal. you don't get to decide when your Synod grants you autocephaly. even when Rus was a unique kingdom, they were not autocephalous until Constantinople granted it to them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sounds like this should be addressed at a council to get everyone on the same page. It’s strange then that they don’t recognize us as autocephalous. It’d be a good topic to address universally, as it apparently causes problems with different interpretations.

that is an option and one many bishops are calling for.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'll ask again, wasn't this one of the bullet points that was supposed to be addressed at the Council in Crete in 2016?
My cursory reading of the agenda indicates that it was.

it was, but then it got scrapped. Crete also recognized Met Onufrey as the head of the Church in Ukraine, by the by.

 

[FenderTL5]

it was, but then it got scrapped. Crete also recognized Met Onufrey as the head of the Church in Ukraine, by the by.

Thank you.
for the record, I'm not making an argument for/against any position, now and not likely in the future. I'm just trying to understand the issue a little better.

I was far too new to Orthodoxy to understand what happened/didn't at Crete.
I thought that (autonomy) was on the agenda. I know there was supposed to be a discussion on the diaspora (including the USA) and some were hoping that the calendar would be resolved but it wasn't specifically mentioned - that I remember.

It's sad that the council was scrapped. It would seem that maybe (maybe?) some of the current discrepancies could have been resolved with full participation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you.
for the record, I'm not making an argument for/against any position, now and not likely in the future. I'm just trying to understand the issue a little better.

I was far too new to Orthodoxy to understand what happened/didn't at Crete.
I thought that (autonomy) was on the agenda. I know there was supposed to be a discussion on the diaspora (including the USA) and some where hoping that the calendar would be resolved but it wasn't specifically mentioned - that I remember.

It's sad that the council was scrapped. It would seem that maybe (maybe?) some of the current discrepancies could have been resolved with full participation.

well, autocephaly question was scrapped. the gathering still happened. the reason the council has not been accepted is because every bishop wasn't invited, and there were things that were in the agenda that were questionable.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Ukraine was not his territory. plus canon V of Nicaea.

What do you think of how ZaidaBoBaida explained it?:

"I just want to say that I don't think either of the patriarchs are thinking with the mind of Christ, and they are both motivated by a lust for wordly power.

"But, here's what I see: HAH Bartholomew wants to be Pope in the east. He buys too much into the western media painting him that way. However, the majority of Orthodox Christians are in Slavic countries, and are more likely to listen to the Patriarch in Moscow than him. HAH is also still tweeked off by non of the Slavic churches showing up at Crete, and he blames Moscow for it even though Moscow was among the last to withdraw. So, by granting autocephaly to the schismatics in Ukraine he's hoping to carve off a significant chunk of Moscow's power and influence for himself."
.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What do you think of how ZaidaBoBaida explained it?:

"I just want to say that I don't think either of the patriarchs are thinking with the mind of Christ, and they are both motivated by a lust for wordly power.

"But, here's what I see: HAH Bartholomew wants to be Pope in the east. He buys too much into the western media painting him that way. However, the majority of Orthodox Christians are in Slavic countries, and are more likely to listen to the Patriarch in Moscow than him. HAH is also still tweeked off by non of the Slavic churches showing up at Crete, and he blames Moscow for it even though Moscow was among the last to withdraw. So, by granting autocephaly to the schismatics in Ukraine he's hoping to carve off a significant chunk of Moscow's power and influence for himself."
.

not sure, I don't want to speculate on the motive of HAH. only thing to do is say the canons point out that the action he took was wrong.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

not sure, I don't want to speculate on the motive of HAH. only thing to do is say the canons point out that the action he took was wrong.

It seems like he might be the EO version of Pope Francis.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It seems like he might be the EO version of Pope Francis.

he may be, or not. I am not sure so I only comment on his actions.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

It seems like he might be the EO version of Pope Francis.

Lets pray he's not! As if the world needs another Francis kind of guy

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

nm.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

.