Role Playing

[Lifesaver]

Yes Wicca and Paganism are the fastest growing religions, while your religion is in decline. Companies are starting to realise this and understand that their customer base is changing. Good business means you go where the customers are.

Definately. Neo-Paganism has many customers.
Sadly, there's no correlation between being a growing trend and being benefical to the people who adhere to it.
So, the question of whether something is growing or in decline (though the number of Christians indicate it is not declining) has no bearing on whether it is a good or a bad thing.

Funny. I've met literally thousands of Witches and other Pagans and none of them consider RPG's to be "spirituality", and none of them say that RPG's had anything to do with their conversion to Paganism.

What do they say led to their conversion?

 

[seebs]

So RPGs do NOT have Neo-Pagan and occult references in them?

Most RPGs have no reference to any real kind of occult.

Once again, I'm not against RPGs per se, nor am I against anything which uses Pagan imagery. I just think they can, in addition to other Neo-Pagan cultural manifestations, draw people to these religions, which I, as a Christian, think is a very bad thing.

But this thought, while curious, is totally unsupported by any evidence thus far provided.

So far, we have no reason to believe that some D&D player saying "I'm gonna cast a fireball" has been led in the slightest towards any kind of pagan or occult activity.

 

[Lifesaver]

Most RPGs have no reference to any real kind of occult.

Druids, Witches, magic spell books, polytheist worship and the conception of magic (a morally neutral energy which can be manipulated) are all part of real kinds of occult spirituality. The specific spells are probably different (I never heard any Witch claiming to be able to transform into animals, though I know one who claims he can make it rain), but the essentials are all there, coupled with the imagery (Wicca and Asastru are derived respectively from ancient Celtic and Norse religions, whose creatures and esthetic achievements are also present in many RPGs).

But this thought, while curious, is totally unsupported by any evidence thus far provided.
So far, we have no reason to believe that some D&D player saying "I'm gonna cast a fireball" has been led in the slightest towards any kind of pagan or occult activity.

Truly, we'll never have any kind of empirical research telling us "% of Neo-Pagans who were influenced by RPG". This information would be impossible to gather. But so is it impossible to gather from TV shows, magazines, films and comics. And there's no doubt that this cultural movement has attracted many people. Or do we disagree here too?

 

[Havoc]

Christians ask for God to help them. Witches manipulate an energy to achieve the results they want.

They are fundamentally different.

Then what am I doing when I pray to my Gods and Goddesses? Wouldn't it be better to ask a Witch what he does than try to tell other people using flawed information?

 

[Havoc]

Definately. Neo-Paganism has many customers.

Customers? Nice backhand there. We're adherants, not customers. Just like in Christianity.

Sadly, there's no correlation between being a growing trend and being benefical to the people who adhere to it.

Very true, when Christianity was actually growing it was very harmful to many people.

So, the question of whether something is growing or in decline (though the number of Christians indicate it is not declining) has no bearing on whether it is a good or a bad thing.

The number of "true" Christians (most fundamentalists don't consider liberal Chritians to be "true" Christians) is definatly in decline. 200 years ago in the US most people were what could be considered Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christians. Today, according to BARNA, it is less than 8% of the population. I'd call that "in decline". You can call it a paperweight if it makes you feel better.

What do they say led to their conversion?

The reasons are many and varied, as would be expected. Some were born into Pagan Families. Some became Pagan after leaving Christianity (a great many actually). Some Became Pagan after searching for a meaningful life. Some become Pagan to help them overcome addictions and alcoholism.

 

[Natro]

Man this Subject makes me want to cast Magic Missile into the darkness.

 

[seebs]

Druids, Witches, magic spell books, polytheist worship and the conception of magic (a morally neutral energy which can be manipulated) are all part of real kinds of occult spirituality. The specific spells are probably different (I never heard any Witch claiming to be able to transform into animals, though I know one who claims he can make it rain), but the essentials are all there, coupled with the imagery (Wicca and Asastru are derived respectively from ancient Celtic and Norse religions, whose creatures and esthetic achievements are also present in many RPGs).

The essentials are precisely what's not there. RPG magic is nothing like any actual occult system. RPG magic is a formalized toy.

Truly, we'll never have any kind of empirical research telling us "% of Neo-Pagans who were influenced by RPG". This information would be impossible to gather. But so is it impossible to gather from TV shows, magazines, films and comics. And there's no doubt that this cultural movement has attracted many people. Or do we disagree here too?

I would disagree with the decision to call gaming part of that cultural movement. It strikes me as being entirely different. In the end, RPGs have their roots in little tin soldiers being marched around on battlefields, not in any kind of pagan tradition.

 

[Glacial]

From speaking to various Pagans over the last year, I can categorically state that none of them were influenced by RPG games in their decision to take up their chosen religion. If anything, many of them had never even played an RPG or an 'occult' game before.

 

[Lifesaver]

The reasons are many and varied, as would be expected. Some were born into Pagan Families. Some became Pagan after leaving Christianity (a great many actually). Some Became Pagan after searching for a meaningful life. Some become Pagan to help them overcome addictions and alcoholism.

Besides "being born into Pagan Families", none of the other things you cited are reasons for becoming Neo-Pagan, and not anything else.

Q:What was the reason of his conversion?
A:He became Pagan after leaving Christianity.

See? Not an answer to the question.

Really, you're only fooling yourself if you think the growing of Paganism among young people has nothing do with the trendy pop-culture related to it nowadays.
Sure, you can always say they have found a deeper connection with the spiritual world completely unrelated to all the products and depictions of Neo-Paganism as hip in the media.... But I'd suggest you'd open your eyes.

 

[Havoc]

Besides "being born into Pagan Families", none of the other things you cited are reasons for becoming Neo-Pagan, and not anything else.

Q:What was the reason of his conversion?
A:He became Pagan after leaving Christianity.

See? Not an answer to the question.

Sigh. Do try to keep up Lifesaver. The question you asked was not give you

reasons for becoming Neo-Pagan, and not anything else

The question was...

What do they say led to their conversion?

Which my answer did address directly.

Really, you're only fooling yourself if you think the growing of Paganism among young people has nothing do with the trendy pop-culture related to it nowadays.

Who said it didn't? The growth or decline of any religion or philosophy is a result of many different factors. One of the factors is that Pop Culture has enabled young peopl to see that the Christian dogma is not the be-all and end-all and that exploring spirituality in other areas is valid.

But that's not what you were pointing out. You were trying to tell us that playing RPG's causes people to become Pagans. That is an unsupported leap from the position that Pop Culture is one of the many factors involved in the acceptance of Paganism as a valid expression of spirituality. Fallacy of equivocation.

Sure, you can always say they have found a deeper connection with the spiritual world completely unrelated to all the products and depictions of Neo-Paganism as hip in the media.... But I'd suggest you'd open your eyes.

The portrayals of Paganism in the media is almost always completely incorrect. Therefore the most you could say is that the media teaches people that it is acceptble to question the status quo and tht one does not have to accept every claim of absolute truth that comes along.

My eyes were opened the moment I realised that claiming I had the absolute truth just because some 2000+ year old book said so was a ridiculous proposition.

 

[Lifesaver]

Sigh. Do try to keep up Lifesaver. The question you asked was not give you The question was...
Which my answer did address directly.

A:...none of them say that RPG's had anything to do with their conversion to Paganism.
Q:What do they say led to their conversion?
A:They became Pagan after leaving Christianity.

What led them to Paganism? I still wait the answer to this. I mean, there must be SOME reason for someone to believe that there are many different gods and that people can use magic.

But that's not what you were pointing out. You were trying to tell us that playing RPG's causes people to become Pagans.

No, such a categorical statement was never made.
All I said and am saying is that it can be a factor in leading people to Paganism.

The portrayals of Paganism in the media is almost always completely incorrect. Therefore the most you could say is that the media teaches people that it is acceptble to question the status quo and tht one does not have to accept every claim of absolute truth that comes along.

They have magic, witches and use elements of ancient cultures which are strongly linked with real Neo-Paganism today. People are attracted to that.

My eyes were opened the moment I realised that claiming I had the absolute truth just because some 2000+ year old book said so was a ridiculous proposition.

Indeed, claiming that the mere fact that something is written on a book means that that something is true is ridiculous indeed.
I just hope you employ some scepticism with Paganism as well. Just because something feels good does not mean it's true.

 

[Charronien]

If you want to make a case for it being good, I'm all ears.

Not that the subject to be examined is good, but that it is good at least to examine the subject for yourself. If you rely exclusively on what others tell you on ANY subject, you are setting yourself up to be led astray. You don't have to buy into it to examine it, and you can't seriously refute it if you don't understand it.

 

[Lifesaver]

I agree. But so far I think I know more than enough about Neo-Paganism. True, there's not one discussion where no one says I have a "completely distorted" idea. But in the end it invariably turns out that, apart from some details, their religion is as I thought it was.

 

[midnight star]

NeoPaganism tends to be more of an Experiential system of belief. Why do people choose to become Neo-pagans? because they have some form of experience that leads them down that path. They feel the presence of something new that feels right to them.

As for the pop-cultural aspect of it, it certainly has some effect on NPs growing popularity. but I would argue that people moving to a faith because of pop culture is no worse than forced conversion or fear of violence (as was the case in Christianitys earlier stages). Also, those attracted by the "trendy" factor are the ones who will probably leave the party when the next big thing comes around, so i wouldn't worry about them too much.

 

[ForeRunner]

Really, you're only fooling yourself if you think the growing of Paganism among young people has nothing do with the trendy pop-culture related to it nowadays.

I know what you mean. After all, the highest grossing film of all time was about...

Oh wait.

 

[ForeRunner]

And the "magic" in RPGs is in no way related to the magic in pagan religions.

Saying that the Druid Class in D&D is representing paganism is like saying the Cleric Class is representing Christianity and the Monk Class is Buddhism.

None are true, you cleary have no idea what paganism is, and if you want to learn about something you shouldn't consult other people that have no idea what they are talking about. That is obviously where you got your information about paganism and RPGs.

 

[Artema]

Why do many christians think that playing RPG's is evil?

Personally, I have no clue. I've been involved in a rpg circle on LiveJournal that centres on ghostwriting for the characters of the Harry Potter books. I myself ghostwrite for Harry.

The whole kerfluffle about HP is that it has occult themes and can 'lead people astray'.

Interesting, seeing as how I'm actively involved in my church and haven't so much as touched a Ouija board. I've certainly researched paganism and the occult, but that was just what it was, research, to become more educated on the topics and to strengthen my own convictions in choosing Christ as my personal savior.

People who do start trying to cast spells and the like because of playing RPGs tend to do so because they haven't strong convictions about their own faith in the first place. They were already disillusioned, it didn't take a game to make them decide.

And really, Lifesaver, you mean well. But acting as though rpgs and other media with occult themes are the sole reason for Neo-Pagans is quite a far stretch. Tell me, did you choose Christ after seeing TPotC? Was that question offensive, even mildly? I just insinuated that you let yourself be run by the media.

Which is what I'm trying to get at. People are smarter and more capable than you're giving them credit for. Christians who know in they're blessed by God aren't going to toss that all aside in lieu of a fantasy game. They know the game is make believe. Only when they consciously allow themselves to doubt is when they'll go run off into something else, be it anything from Judaism to Wicca*, and they're ultimately making that choice on their own, by themselves because they want to, not because someone's forcing them to.

Hope that wasn't too convoluted. Now I'm waiting for the inevitable gasp and "well, you're not a true Christian for getting involved in Harry Potter".

*(not meant in offense to Jews or Wiccans, I'm makin' a point here)

 

[Lifesaver]

None are true, you cleary have no idea what paganism is

What is my idea of Paganism?

 

[Lifesaver]

And really, Lifesaver, you mean well. But acting as though rpgs and other media with occult themes are the sole reason for Neo-Pagans is quite a far stretch. Tell me, did you choose Christ after seeing TPotC? Was that question offensive, even mildly? I just insinuated that you let yourself be run by the media.

Indeed, I often act as if media influence was the only reason why people are drawn to it. I'm sure it is not the case, though.

However, I fail to think of any other reason, and so far I have heard of none. I understand people may be weak in their faith and searching for other things. What I can't understand is how anyone can possibly consciously believe the claims of Neo-Pagan religion.
The only reason I can think of is being slowly unconsciously drawn to it because of media influence.

You raise a good point, about someone converting to Christianity because of TPotC. My only reply is that this person was at least led to what is true, as blind as their conversion was. And so it is a good thing.

s what I'm trying to get at. People are smarter and more capable than you're giving them credit for. Christians who know in they're blessed by God aren't going to toss that all aside in lieu of a fantasy game. They know the game is make believe. Only when they consciously allow themselves to doubt is when they'll go run off into something else, be it anything from Judaism to Wicca*, and they're ultimately making that choice on their own, by themselves because they want to, not because someone's forcing them to.

I know they are not being forced by anyone. However, people with such weak spiritual assurance should not be playing RPGs and watching Pagan related stuff, for it will likely lead them to this kind of spirituality.
This is basically my position: if you are confident of your faith, go on, watch them and play them. However, if you are likely to be influenced by the spirituality depicted, steer clear.
Of course, the people who are doubting are exactly those who won't agree with my advice, and thus it is mostly useless.

at wasn't too convoluted. Now I'm waiting for the inevitable gasp and "well, you're not a true Christian for getting involved in Harry Potter".

You needn't fear that kind of response from me, ALTHOUGH the Harry Potter books did come in a very inapropriate time, and JK Rowling's stand regarding Witchcraft has been very questionable...

 

[ForeRunner]

What is my idea of Paganism?

That pagans are people that run around casting magic missle and fireball at orcs and goblins (or the darkness). Obviously this isn't real or true.

Good job not answering any of my other points as well.