Righteousness...?

Neogaia777

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It is in part work based but starts at faith. My sins from my past are unforgivable without Jesus. My future sins are unforgivable without Jesus and no amount of "works" can change this. But Jesus has changed this and now it is my responsibility to not take it for granted and to live the way I am expected to now that I am claiming Jesus' name :) I know works are useless without faith, I just wish people understood faith is non existent without at least striving for the works too.

I understand that, and I agree with you, in James, doesn't it say that "faith without works is dead"?

And doesn't it also say somewhere that (and I might be misquoting it) "Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works" sorry, I can't quote where

Can anyone help me out?

God Bless!
 
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BryanW92

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I understand that, and I agree with you, in James, doesn't it say that "faith without works is dead"?

And doesn't it also say somewhere that (and I might be misquoting it) "Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works" sorry, I can't quote where

Can anyone help me out?

God Bless!
Its all there in James 2 in the oft-quoted "faith without works" section.

Its a tricky section. It is designed to keep the militant OSAS types from saying their little prayer and then never committing another Christian act again in their life. He is saying that if you are saved by regeneration, then you couldn't possibly be some OSAS guy who never does any works for the kingdom. The Holy Spirit would convict a regenerated person to do works. However, what the Holy Spirit convicts me to do is different from what he convicts you to do. Everyone is called to do different things and given different gifts. Not everyone has the temperament to work in a homeless shelter just as not everyone has the temperament to lead a church council.

What James is not saying is that your works have anything to do with gaining or keeping salvation.
 
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kristina411

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I understand that, and I agree with you, in James, doesn't it say that "faith without works is dead"?

And doesn't it also say somewhere that (and I might be misquoting it) "Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works" sorry, I can't quote where

Can anyone help me out?

God Bless!

Thank you thank you thank you for reminding me! Your verses are from James chapter two verses 14-26. It says everything I have been trying to say all over these boards (lol):

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needs for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offers Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called a friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
This is the New King James Version, I'm looking for a good early King James right now. Bold are of course my doing to highlight my favorite parts :)
~ By works faith was made perfect ~
 
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Neogaia777

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Its all there in James 2 in the oft-quoted "faith without works" section.

Its a tricky section. It is designed to keep the militant OSAS types from saying their little prayer and then never committing another Christian act again in their life. He is saying that if you are saved by regeneration, then you couldn't possibly be some OSAS guy who never does any works for the kingdom. The Holy Spirit would convict a regenerated person to do works. However, what the Holy Spirit convicts me to do is different from what he convicts you to do. Everyone is called to do different things and given different gifts. Not everyone has the temperament to work in a homeless shelter just as not everyone has the temperament to lead a church council.

What James is not saying is that your works have anything to do with gaining or keeping salvation.

Thanks!, your right, everyone is different, and so their strengths an weaknesses (with sin) will be different, and none of us is perfect...

I sincerely believe that real faith will move the heart to good works (as in deeds or acts)

But should/shouldn't we distinguish works of law, from works, as in kind and generous deeds or acts? Sometimes it's hard to tell with Paul in which he is referring to?

OSAS guy?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Thank you thank you thank you for reminding me! Your verses are from James chapter two verses 14-26. It says everything I have been trying to say all over these boards (lol):

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needs for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offers Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called a friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
This is the New King James Version, I'm looking for a good early King James right now. Bold are of course my doing to highlight my favorite parts :)
~ By works faith was made perfect ~

Thanks for your reply,

I believe there is a place where faith and works meet, and I believe it happens in the heart, as in Abraham and the work (work is obeying, obedience to God's command) Anyways, "work/act of obedience" of sacrificing his one and only beloved son, and his faith was made perfect in his obedience/work (to do God's command) Regardless of how it broke his heart, this of course fore-shadowed what God would eventually do with his own son....

God Bless!
 
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ron4shua

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Truer words are very few & sometimes very difficult to find . So then , just were does " faith & works meet " ?

I believe there is a place where faith and works meet, and I believe it happens in the heart, as in Abraham and the work (work is obeying, obedience to God's command) Anyways, "work/act of obedience" of sacrificing his one and only beloved son, and his faith was made perfect in his obedience/work (to do God's command) Regardless of how it broke his heart, this of course fore-shadowed what God would eventually do with his own son....

I view YAHshua's Brothers words , as , where the rubber meets the road . ( of life in the flesh , guided by The Spirit )

9 According as the Father did love me, I also loved you, remain in my love;
10 if my commandments ye may keep, ye shall remain in my love, according as I the commands of my Father have kept, and do remain in His love;
11 these things I have spoken to you, that my joy in you may remain, and your joy may be full.
12 `This is my command, that ye love one another, according as I did love you;
13 greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;
14 ye are my friends, if ye may do whatever I command you;
15 no more do I call you servants, because the servant hath not known what his lord doth, and you I have called friends, because all things that I heard from my Father, I did make known to you.
(YLT)
 
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Neogaia777

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Which bring me back to my original question which hasn't been answered to my satisfactory, so can we work on it...

What is righteousness exactly, how do we be and do and act like a righteous person, especially in this world...?

What is taking our stand for righteousness mean, or be like. How do we put it (righteousness) into practice?

God Bless!
 
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FireDragon76

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Perhaps it is you who is confused. "The LORD is righteous in all His ways and holy in all His works" (Psalm 145:17). Righteousness and holiness are INSEPARABLE according to this verse and according to God's character.

The same applies to Christians. There is imputed righteousness and then there is practical righteousness. Without holiness, there cannot be practical righteousness. And we DO NOT "attain" righteousness. God works out His righteousness in and through us (Phil 2:13).

No, actually he was right. The word in Hebrew and Greek refers to a court-room setting, not a moral quality. To be judged righteous means "in the right". To say hat a human being is righteous means that he is found to be "not guilty", but this doesn't imply sinlessness anymore than OJ Simpson being found "not guilty" does. It doesn't imply moral perfection.

In the Jewish religion, they understood righteousness as faithfulness to God and his commandments. For Christians its no different really. This is neither a "works righteousness", nor is it some kind of indifference to our sins, indeed, a righteous person recognizes their faults and tries to do better.
 
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hmw

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Which bring me back to my original question which hasn't been answered to my satisfactory, so can we work on it...


Jesus was asked what works we should do.
He answered in John 6:29 that our works are to believe on him.

Note how this applies in James 2:14-17

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Firstly, remember that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14. The Bible is like a parable, and we Christians are given the understanding to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, Luke 8:10.
But anyone who reads scripture only in physical terms they'll make the same mistake as Nicodemus who thought that born-again meant one had to re-enter into his mother's womb.

So, who are the naked referred to in James 2?
They are the lost, the spiritually naked who lack the robes of righteousness, the garment of salvation.

Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,


And who are the destitute of daily food?
It's the lost, the spiritually hungry who lack Christ our spiritual food.

1Cor 10:3,4
all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ

Christians do the works of believing on Jesus (John 6:29), and in believing on Jesus we let our light (Christ in us) shine (Matt 5) preaching the gospel to the lost, the spiritually naked and spiritually hungry.

These are works that shows our faith.

What is righteousness exactly, how do we be and do and act like a righteous person, especially in this world...?

There are no physical works that we can do that would be righteousness.

Instead we see that it's our walk of faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

Note what Paul said in Phil 3:6-9
concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;


How do we put it (righteousness) into practice?

Remember that it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We believe on Jesus.

So how do we put this righteousness into practice?

See 1Tim 6:12-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life (John 3:16), to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession (confessed Jesus with your mouth, Rom 10:9) in the presence of many witnesses. I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,

Paul put it into practice and won that good fight of faith.
2Tim 4:7-8
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
 
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JLR1300

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There are a couple of things that need to be understood about the passage in James.

1. Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous (Justified) first. Then, years and years later He was justified by works when he was going to offer up Issac his son. These are two different occasions. At one point in His life God made a promise to him and he believed God and was justified in God's eyes. Many years later he offered up Issac and was seen or known to be a righteous man (Justified) by that work. So these are two different things.

2. Paul is talking about being justified (seen as righteous) in the eyes of God. James is talking about being justified (seen as righteous) in the eyes of men. The first time, when Abraham believed God, he was justified or seen as righteous in the eyes of God. The second time when he offered up his son he was justified or seen as righteous in the eyes of men. That is why when Paul mentions Abraham He says..."For if Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD. But when James speaks about this he says "I will SHOW YOU my faith by my works"

So Paul is talking about being justified (seen as righteous) before God and James is talking about being justified (seen as righteous) before men. "I will show YOU my faith by my works James says.

So what the scripture is teaching is this: When it comes to getting saved we are justified (seen as righteous) before God (in His sight) by faith alone. Nevertheless we are justified (seen as righteous) by men by our works. Our works prove to men that we are justified. We SHOW our faith and our righteous condition by works.

If you don't understand this then you will end up teaching that we are saved and become Christians by works. Yet Paul says "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."

So here is the true biblical teaching. We trust Christ to save us and are justified BEFORE GOD... then later on the Holy Spirit produces works in us that that SHOWS THE WORLD that we are right with God or justified.
 
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kristina411

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then later on the Holy Spirit produces works in us that that SHOWS THE WORLD that we are right with God or justified.

Yes, and we should do all things led by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is what leads us to do works. If we are led completely by the Holy Spirit, we are both faith and works.
Repeatedly it is mentioned in both new and old testaments that works are very important to the faith. Spin as it will, "with works faith was made perfect" is just that. You can not be of the world and of Christ.

Its not about being perfect right this moment, its about living in faith every moment and learning to let the Holy Spirit guide you instead of being led by the world.
 
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JLR1300

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Yes, and we should do all things led by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is what leads us to do works. If we are led completely by the Holy Spirit, we are both faith and works.
Repeatedly it is mentioned in both new and old testaments that works are very important to the faith. Spin as it will, "with works faith was made perfect" is just that. You can not be of the world and of Christ.

Its not about being perfect right this moment, its about living in faith every moment and learning to let the Holy Spirit guide you instead of being led by the world.

Yes, I agree. And I think that "by works faith was made perfect" means that the goal of faith is not only to be justified or saved or forgiven of sin... but the goal of faith is also to produce works. So when faith finally produces works, it's goal has been reached... so now it is all that it should be....it is "perfect" in that it is a faith which has achieved it's goal and completed it's task.
 
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kristina411

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Yes, I agree. And I think that "by works faith was made perfect" means that the goal of faith is not only to be justified or saved or forgiven of sin... but the goal of faith is also to produce works. So when faith finally produces works, it's goal has been reached... so now it is all that it should be....it is "perfect" in that it is a faith which has achieved it's goal and completed it's task.

Exactly ��
 
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JLR1300

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Exactly ��

So that I am not misunderstood... when I say the goal of faith is works...I mean God's goal for our faith (which is a gift from Him) is not only that it justifies us but that it produces works. Faith itself is not a commitment to do works but is simply the belief that Jesus is the Divine Lord God and that his death for our sins saves us personally apart from works. But God's goal for our faith is that it goes on to grow and to produces works.

So upon Justification He gives us the Holy Spirit and the combination of the Faith that we have plus the Holy Spirit produces works.

I thought I would clarify that because someone might think that what I meant by saying that the goal of faith is works is that the sinner is saved by having as HIS goal the commitment to do works. No. Incorrect conclusion.

Our faith which justifies us is simply the belief that Jesus is the Lord and that we cannot be saved by our works but that His blood covers our sins and saves us.. But God's goal for our faith is that it will then grow and by the Help of the indwelling Spirit produce works. When it does then our faith has reached maturity (perfection).
 
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JLR1300

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Explain the term "works".

Well, let's see... Jonah 3:10 says, "God saw their works, that they turned from their evil ways..." So according to this scripture, God views turning from evil as a work.

This would go along with Ephesians 2:8,9 when Paul says "for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

We learn a couple of things in this verse... a work would be anything that a man could boast about with regards to his getting saved or justified. Now that could be anything that is moral in nature. For example, if a sinner named John was saved or justified because he was moral enough to quit committing adultery whereas his friend Jeff was not saved because He wasn't moral enough to quit... then John could boast that he is saved and Jeff isn't because he was a good enough person to quit committing Adultery whereas Jeff wasn't. So since he can reasonably boast about it, it has to be considered a work.

So turning from Adultery is turning from evil, and turning from evil according to Jonah is a work. Also one can brag that he is saved where others aren't because he was willing to turn from Adultery whereas others weren't so the ability to brag about a moral action pretty much demonstrates that it is viewed as a work.

Notice also that Paul did not say that works for justification are okay as long as they result from God's grace. Augustine tried to say that baptism for salvation is not considered a work because the willingness to do it is the result of the Holy Spirit's work in our lives. By that logic the Judaizers in Galatia could have said that insisting on circumcision for justification was okay because the willingness to do it results from God's gracious work in the sinner. No. Paul never said that circumcision for justification was okay so long as we give the Holy Spirit the credit. A work for justification is a work regardless.

What all could we brag about with regards to the issue of works for justification? 1. Turning from sin. 2 Participating in ceremonies. 3 Doing good deeds. 4. Loving God. (the greatest commandment in the Law of Moses is to Love the Lord and fulfilling commandments in the law is definately a work) 5. Promises, resolving, submitting, making commitments, repenting OF SINS.

All these things are good but they are not what we do for justification they are the results of justification and they follow justification.

first God gives us faith and justifies us.... Then once we are justified we are a legally clean temple so the Holy Spirit enters us.... then that causes us to produce the fruits of the Spirit which are Love and goodness and self-control etc. Then, because we now have love for God and goodness etc. we will turn from evil and do good works. Probably that whole process only takes a few seconds...but the order is important.

If we say that we first must make commitments to turn from evil and we must keep the command to Love the Lord and we must resolve to quit this and promise to do that before we can be justified, we are saying that we must become godly to be justified. But Paul says "But to him who DOES NOT WORK, but believes on Him who justifies the UNGODLY, his faith is accounted as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

The faith that justifies... is trusting and believing that even though I am ungodly, I am right with God because the blood of Jesus covers my sins and saves me. We have the right to believe that because the Gospel says that whoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely. Notice the word freely.

Gratitude for salvation and the indwelling Holy Spirit will then produce works.

Finally, to repent (metanoia) means to change your mind. When the issue is salvation and the Apostles tell unbelievers to repent, they mean that those who are not believing that Jesus is God and Messiah and Savior must change their minds.

They cannot mean that we must turn from drinking and cussing and chasing women to be justified because A. That would be turning from evil and turning from evil is a work according to Jonah. B. 1 John 3:4 says
"sin is the transgression of the law" and so if we tell a person they must repent OF SINS in order to be saved we are telling them they must resolve to keep the law to be saved... Yet Paul says this ...'therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith APART FROM the deeds of the law". C. The Apostles never tell an unsaved sinner to repent OF SINS to be saved. With the one exception of belief in Idols because you have to change your mind about believing in a false God to believe in the true one.

Thanks ....
 
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