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Revelation and Symbolism

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Draxamus, May 15, 2002.

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  1. davo

    davo Member

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    +3
    G'day Pericles :wave:

    You have to understand one thing: Mandy, RKF and co' have to hold an "anythings goes" with respect to issues of "time" in the Scriptures -as their dispensational theology demands it. I'm just glad that when God the Son said three days and three nights in the belly of the earth He actually literally meant it -and not three thousand years. :D I wonder if they also believe in a literal six day creation? -or does it get stretched out to six thousand years? -that's that beauty with diSpENSATIONAL futurism, anything goes. :rolleyes:

    davo
     
  2. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Davo, ol' buddy ol' pal, I don't hold on to anything called anything goes, I believe in the Bible. I read the thing long before I went to any church or denomination. So that I wouldn't get just some preached at me view. I take the word of God as a whole for what it says and all of it.
    To me it is truely the word of God. I know this though that the preterest views hasn't been around that long but the word of God has been around a long long long time.
    To me the bible is timeless...........Until the end, that is the race that I am in, the Bible says that he that endurth to the end the same shall be saved, I shall endure.
    No I don't believe in any man made trinity, just like I don't believe in the preterest views, in fact I don't care for any labels. Yall always say let the bible interpretate the Bible but your main reference is Josephus, him I don't find in the Bible at all. He was a Jewish historian and more thn likely didn't even believe in Jesus, So I wouldn't hold any stock in what he says any how. Thank you
     
  3. davo

    davo Member

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    RKF, ol' buddy ol' pal, I'm glad you "shall endure." :clap:

    As for Josephus -he wasn't even on my mind, however seeing as you brought him up; he is simply a handy historical reference regarding the life and times in question [around the destruction of Jerusalem etc]. And he and his writtings are not inspired -that however does not devalue their worth as critical reference material. He was a Jew and was NOT a Christian, so he had no vested interests [only in saving his own hide :) ].

    My postion still stands however: that your lack of respect for the Biblical text [in dismissing by explaining away time references] you claim to adhere to is simply for theological expedience and convenience. [and I use the word "theological" with some reserve]

    davo
     
  4. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    You all should look into Hebrew numerology if you are confused about the "1000" idea. 1000 was symbloic for a "completeness," not the actual number 1000.
     
  5. davo

    davo Member

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    Absolutely correct!
     
  6. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

    428
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    Christian
    Hmm...a few things to get you back on track and hopefully motivate you to actually ADDRESS my previous point:

    1. The Bible is not "timeless". Every single passage written in the bible has a literary and historical context. Paul and Peter actually DID write actual letters to people that actually were alive 2,000 years ago. Jesus did walk around and talked to people that were alive 2,000 years ago, and John's latest letter, also called Revelation, says in the beginning "John to the seven churches that are in Asia". Unless I am way off here, RKF, do you live in Asia, and if so, which church do you attend there?

    2. The verse that you quoted illustrates the fact that you don't understand point 1, that biblical passages have a literary and a historical context. Jesus was telling his disciples that they will be hated by many of their own countrymen because of their faith in Him. Quoting that verse in this forum shows the lack of your understanding of the passage. I don't hate you, and I doubt that davo hates you, so I don't see why you are quoting that verse here in our discussion. Furthermore, the very next verse in Matthew 10:23 says:

    “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

    The fact that you again quoted half of a statement from Christ and completely ignored the conclusion of his sentence, re-enforces and proves what I already said. Care to explain if the disciples are still alive today going through the cities of Israel?

    3. I don't see anyone here saying that Josephus' writings are in the Bible. WWW II is also not in the Bible, so someone must have dreamed up the entire war, or obviously it must have never happened! Non-believers often point out just this kind of attitude in Christians that burry their heads in the sand, and become socially irrelevant, because certain things are not in the bible. Cancer research is not in the bible yet Christians that have cancer go and get therapy. That doesn't make any sense to me...

    4. My previous post concerning the two passages (from Revelation and Daniel) prove the opposite of your claim, that God is aware of our timeline, and that soon means soon, and distant future means distant future. Please address this point...with biblical evidence, not statements that "the bible is timeless"
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +3,234
    United States
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    So Mandy,
    Would you agree then, that if God promised to do something for you tomorrow, He could wait 1000 years to do it and still be true to His promise?

    Isn't that what you are saying here?

    Thanks,
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  8. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    No that isn't what I was saying and I am quite sure you know that. I was merely pointing out that there is no time with God and there is little if any difference to Him between a day and a thousand years like there is to us . I was pointing out that the verse had to be taken in context.
     
  9. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

    428
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    Christian
    Mandy, I couldn't agree with you more, but try to address my post concerning Daniel and Revelation. There is no time with God, but God is communicating with us humans, on our terms. When we read about "time" in the Bible, it has to mean something, otherwise, our Creator would be unable to communicate with us, and we would have no clue what anything in the Bible means. :)
     
  10. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Does the time is at hand equal a specific time or date? No.
    And I will kindly ask that you refrain from making false statements as to what I said or meant. I never stated that time statements mean nothing. I was referring only to 2 Peter 3:8-9. Also, I find it impossible that Jesus had come again around 70AD, since the book of Revelation was written between 85 and 95AD.
     
  11. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    Christian
    My intention was not to make false statements about you. If I did, I apologize. I don't know how else to interpret your view of biblical time statements, so now I am even more confused, especially since you are saying that they do mean something. What do these biblical time statements mean then?

    On your claim about the date of the book of Revelation, I would like to see some evidence for your statement. Why do you think that Revelation was written between 85 and 95 AD?
     
  12. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    Christian
    Apocalyptic language (which is what the book of Revelation is) in general is full of imagery...in fact that's how God mostly communicated to Israel. The Revealing of Christ, the atonement lamb was done using jewish poetic images, images with which first century jews and christians were very familiar with. Furthermore, the Bible actually says the opposite...that images and symbolism is used much more than literalism..and that Christ did NOT speak to the crowds without images:

    "All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world.” Mat. 13:34,35
     
  13. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    According to the Apostolic tradition, John had been banished to the Isle of Patmos about 95AD and was released the next year, and that it was after his release and return to Ephesus that he wrote Revelation about 96AD.
     
  14. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Ok, let me try to explain my position more clearly. I am not saying that symbolism wasn't used, my point was that things like the 1,000 year reign of Christ, etc., is not symbolic. Besides, the Book of Revelation is an unveiling, not a parable.
     
  15. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    Ahhh...apostolic tradition. So your entire eschatological structure is based on tradition rather than Scripture?
     
  16. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    Why isn't the 1,000 year reign of Christ symbolic?
     
  17. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

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    Why would it be symbolic? In Acts 1, the disciples were told that Jesus would return. What would he return for except to reign?
     
  18. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    Christian
    Because throughout the Bible numbers often mean something. When the psalmist wrote "The cows on a thousand hills belong to God", in your opinion God only owns the cows that are on 1,000 hills, or you think he owns all the cows, on all hills?
     
  19. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Come on, stop using that one scripture to show symbolicism, of course it's symbolic, it means that God owns it all, but that doesn't mean that the thousand year riegn is not literal, you preterest are very good at twisting the scriptures!!!!!1
     
  20. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7

    You didn't really answer my question though, why did Jesus return then? Revelation is not written to be so symbolic that everything would be so obscured. Revelation is an unveiling not a veiling.
     
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