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Revelation and Symbolism

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Draxamus, May 15, 2002.

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  1. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Revelation of Jesus Christ is actually the title of the book, revealing who Jesus really was GOD.
     
  2. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

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    True, but it does unveil many other things.
     
  3. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    Jesus returned then because that's when He said he would return:

    “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Mat. 24:34

    “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." Luke 21:32

    “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Mark 13:30

    “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” Mat. 16:28

    “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes." Mat. 10:23


    Revelation was written to "the seven churches of Asia", not to you Mandy. It is written in what is called apocalyptic language. That style of writing is based on symbolism, mostly because, AGAIN, it is concerning jews, judaism and it is using jewish poetic imagery. If you cannot understand this, I am afraid I cannot explain it any better.

    The psalm that says "the cattle on a thousand hills belong to God" means anything to you? I am curious how you interpret that passage...
     
  4. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm not asking why Jesus returned then, I was asking why did He return. Did it possibly occur to you that perhaps Jesus was referring to the generation that would see these things? Well I guess you have to make Revelation to be written in the style you say it was written to support your preterist doctrine.
     
  5. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    Who said anything about Revelation? Every time I present you with biblical evidence you switch subjects and ask me a question instead of providing an answer. Jesus must have been pretty ignorant to call a generation thousands of years later "this generation". On top of that, I wasn't aware that the apostles are still alive today, preaching the gospel from city to city in Israel. You got it all figured out didn't you? :)
     
  6. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7

    Look, you were the one who mentioned the writing style of Revelation and you are avoiding my questions and putting words in my mouth. I have got enough figured out to live my life unto God and occupy until he comes. Since you are insisting on turning this into a personal debate, then as far as I'm concerned this debate is over.
     
  7. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    You may take this personally, but I am not. I simply asked if the apostles are still alive today, preaching the gospel from city to city in Israel, since you obviously believe that Christ didn't return yet. Again, here are my biblical references:



    “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Mat. 24:34

    “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." Luke 21:32

    “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Mark 13:30

    “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” Mat. 16:28

    “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes." Mat. 10:23

     
  8. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Matthew 16:28 is in reference to Jesus' tranfiguration, which is just a verse or 2 below and is not referring to His second coming.

    Kingdom:
    932 basileia bas-il-i'-ah

    from 935; properly, royalty, i.e. (abstractly) rule, or (concretely) a realm (literally or figuratively):--kingdom, + reign


    Coming: 2064 erchomai er'-khom-ahee

    middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho, which do not otherwise occur) to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come,
    enter, fall


    The word coming in the Greek also means appear.
    So the verse can be translated as, "..til they see the Son of Man appear in royalty(or majesty)."

    As far as the other verses are concerned, I believe that Jesus was referring to the generation that would see the things He spoke about.
     
  9. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    This is a fair attempt to answer my question, just a couple of pointers:

    1. Did you study greek? I would like to make sure that we are on the same page as far as the greek lexicon goes.

    2. Do you think that Christ had to make a prophecy about an event that was to take place 2 weeks later? In fact, none of his disciples died in the 2 weeks interval, so Christ was actually wrong...not SOME of them, but ALL of them were alive.

    3. Do you believe Christ's Kingdom started 2 weeks later?

    4. What about Matthew 10:23?
     
  10. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    Actually, *all* the disciples saw his transfiguration, not "some"; so you are incorrect.


    “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes." Mat. 10:23

    Obviously Christ didn't put enough "YOU"s in this statement for people to get the picture.

    Mandy, plan on doing some sighseeting in Israel anytime soon?

    -A
     
  11. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
     
  12. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes." Mat. 10:23


    Where does it say "manifested before the nation of Israel"? And what in the world does "manifested before the nation of Israel" mean?
     
  13. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

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    No I don't study Greek, I have no need to do so.
    I don't think Jesus "needed" to prophecy about it at all, yet He did. Jesus had more than 12 disciples and I really don't think He was inferring that anyone would die.
    Your last question was answered in my previous post.
     
  14. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    Again, you are fudging your answers. I will repeat the passage to avoid confusion:

    “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” Mat. 16:28

    If "taste death" doesn't mean "die", then what does it mean? Why did Jesus have to predict that nobody in his audience will taste death in 2 weeks before they see Him come in His Kingdom?

    And again, did His kingdom start at the transfiguration? You surely don't believe so, do you?

    And why are you quoting greek passages if you are not a greek scholar? :)
     
  15. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

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    Jesus didn't have to predict that no one would die, that wasn't His point, it would seem that He was referring to it happening soon.

    The Transfiguration was a miniature picture of the Kingdom and Peter confirmed this in 2 Peter 1:16-18.

    No one needs to be a Greek scholar to look up words in the Greek.
     
  16. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    I am sorry, but again Mandy, you are not answering my questions. Why did he even mentioned "some will not die" until 2 weeks later? His point WAS that his coming will be within their lifetimes. When did Christ say anything about a "miniature picture" of the Kingdom? He said COMING IN HIS KINGDOM, not coming in a MINIATURE PICTURE OF THE KINGDOM.
     
  17. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

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    Yes I did answer your questions, I'm sorry that you can't see it.
    I already explained the way those verses are to be interpretted.
     
  18. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

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    Completely unsatisfactory...
     
  19. davo

    davo Member

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    Hey Mandy, a couple of days ago I posted this response to one of your comrades, Postrib -he hasn't seen fit to answer, yet. Since you've brought it up, what are your thoughts -as it seems pretty similar to what you are saying is the truth.

    G'day postrib,

    Hey how do you figure this? Just the verse before, verse 27 says:

    "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

    At the 'Transfiguration' there were six present -Peter, James and John, and Jesus, Moses and Elijah. [and no angels]. And no-one recieved rewards -rewards according to many scriptures are all related to the end-time Coming/Resurrection/Judgment.

    Not only that -what was it that between then [when Jesus spoke these words] and the Transfiguration, a whole six days, that was such a threat to the disciples lives that required Jesus to say "some would not taste death till he came." There was NO pursecution at that time. And who died? NO-ONE died as a result of the Transfguration.

    You say: His Kingdom was fulfilled at the Transfiguration -before the Cross?? Mate, this is weird stuff, where do you get it? -not the Bible that's for sure.

    -the Transfiguration -I do not think so. This Coming of Christ IS none other than His Parousia at AD70. How is it that you peddle such ideas!

    A Scriptural response will be fine -not wild nor biblically unsubstantiated assuumptions.

    Now Mandy I'm not expecting that you answer for Postrib, but is there anything in what I've responded that you would take issue with? Any scriptural response?

    davo
     
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