Revelation and Symbolism

[NumberOneSon]

The link lead me to the latest United Press article on the site that stated...

"According to Yitzhak Frankenthal, leader of the attending Oz ve-Shalom, an Israeli religious group for peace, Arafat said, "It was not a problem to sign the Clinton framework suggestion, only if we could get sovereignty over the Haram al Sharif -- Temple Mount." Haram al Sharif and Temple Mount are the Israeli and Arab names for the Muslim holy site in Jerusalem, which Jews also revere."

I couldn't find an article that stated Palastinians or Arabs were now giving Jews rights to some of the Temple Mount. I didn't see anything overturning Arafat's desire for sovereignty over Haram al Sharif? The Radion broadcast link was also entitled "Arafat: Talks Broke Down Over Temple Mount" I don't see where that has changed.

Could you provide a direct link to the article in question. Thanks.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Mandy]

Originally posted by s0uljah


I guess we differ on our beliefs on who wrote that chapter of the Bible. I believe John wrote it from prison, while it seems you believe God wrote it. If those premises are correct, then we can't agree.

Do you not believe the the Bible is the inspired word of God (God breathed)? The Lord Himself dictated to John what to write just as it says.
John was not in prison as such, but was exiled to the island of Patmos. There is no mention of prison.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Mandy I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, not that God dicated to John.

There are contradictions in the Bible. Surely God doesn't make mistakes, right?

 

[NumberOneSon]

There are contradictions in the Bible.

Uh oh...

 

[RKF]

The Bible does not have condradictions in it !!!!
Only your misunderstanding of the scriptures

 

[RKF]

Listen to the radio program

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by RKF
The Bible does not have condradictions in it !!!!
Only your misunderstanding of the scriptures

This is the signature of an athiest on these forums...it is an example of a contradiction.


--

DT 6:5, MT 22:37, MK 12:30, LK 10:27 Love God.

DT 6:13, PS 33:8, 34:9, 111:10, 115:13, 128:1, 147:11, PR 8:13, 16:6, 19:23, 22:4, IS 8:13, LK 12:5, 1PE 2:17 Fear God.

1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love.

--

I'm not trying to argue and on the contrary, I would love the be proven wrong.

Here is the scripture:

"18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

Here are more, some that can be seen as contradictions:

http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~werdna/contradictions/cindex.html

 

[Mandy]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Mandy I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, not that God dicated to John.

There are contradictions in the Bible. Surely God doesn't make mistakes, right?

Why then was John told to write the things he did in Revelation? John was very clearly told what to write.


Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass;
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


Clearly we can see from these verses that John was told to write what we call the book of Revelation.

As far as contradictions are concerned, there is not one that does not have a reasonable explaination. There are more than likely though a few translational errors, but those do not make it any less the word of God. All doctrine and such is preserved.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Mandy
As far as contradictions are concerned, there is not one that does not have a reasonable explaination. There are more than likely though a few translational errors, but those do not make it any less the word of God. All doctrine and such is preserved.

Ok, explain this one please.

God is satisfied with his works

"God saw all that he made, and it was very good."[Gen 1:31]

God is dissatisfied with his works

"The Lord was grieved that he had made man on earth, and his heart was filled with pain." [Gen 6:6]

Perhaps you would say that after He saw humans choose freely to do evil things, that it made Him sad. But obviously, being all-powerful, he knew what He made, so why would he be sad? Shouldn't it say instead, the lord grieved that man had made evil choices only?

 

[Mandy]

I guess I don't understand how that is a contradiction.
God's creation was good. Just like when I had my children, it was good. When they mess up though, it grieves my heart.

 

[NumberOneSon]

Great example, Mandy!

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Mandy
I guess I don't understand how that is a contradiction.
God's creation was good. Just like when I had my children, it was good. When they mess up though, it grieves my heart.

grieved that he had made man

You don't see that He is grieving because He made children?

Or do you explain this by possible translation error?

 

[Mandy]

I don't claim to know or have an explaination for every apparent contradiction.
I do know that God does not change and that He is all knowing.
When we see God changing His mind, we are seeing it from a human perspective. Since God knows all things from all eternity, He as always known the ultimate plan that He would carry out; even the plan to "change His mind."
So no, I don't believe this is a translational error, I believe it to be an interpretational one.

 

[Wildfire]

souljah; not to get off the subject, but to help answer your question, there is a reason why God was so grieved over the creation of man, and this is futher explained in the book of Enoch. He chose to flood the earth to rid it of wickedness, preserving only Noah and his family, who were seen as good in his eyes. He also promised never to do this again, and the proof lies in our sight of the rainbow.
I see no contradiction in God, because we are told that God is a <jealous> God, and what he witnessed upon the earth in the days of Noah, led to the destruction of it. (and) he will destroy all mankind again, but this time through fire and heat, as explained in the book of Revelation.
Hope this helps,
Wildfire

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Mandy
I don't claim to know or have an explaination for every apparent contradiction.

Sorry to be picky, but you did say there was an explanation for every apparent contradiction.

Originally posted by Mandy

When we see God changing His mind, we are seeing it from a human perspective.

[/B]

So the Bible is from the human perspective, thus, written by humans, not God's words, correct?

Again, not trying to debate or be a pain in the butt, just trying to understand your belief and question in my own mind, as well.

I suppose it could mean that God was glad that he made humans, which have free will, but he grieved that He made them that way, when they always choose evil at that time in history. Is that right?

Perhaps a lot of the "contradictions" exist because they are taken out of context, and are thus seen as strict statements, which appear to be total opposites.

This is important to me, since I am not sure if the Bible should be taken word for word, or not.

 

[Mandy]

Originally posted by s0uljah


Sorry to be picky, but you did say there was an explanation for every apparent contradiction.

LOL, yes, but I didn't claim to know every explaination.

So the Bible is from the human perspective, thus, written by humans, not God's words, correct?

No, many times these contradictions are due to nothing more than faulty interpretations or misunderstandings, or not taking into account the context by reading around such verses.

Again, not trying to debate or be a pain in the butt, just trying to understand your belief and question in my own mind, as well.

I consider this a discussion and I don't find you to be a pain, I am doing the same.

I suppose it could mean that God was glad that he made humans, which have free will, but he grieved that He made them that way, when they always choose evil at that time in history. Is that right?

I understand that it may appear that God changed His mind about His creation, but based on the rest of the Bible, I can't see that being the case. I don't think God is sorry that He gave us free will, because He delight in those who choose to love Him and be obedient and such.
I also think problems tend to come up like this when we try to understand God who is infinite with our limited finite understanding.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Thanks, perhaps you are right.

One more thing though. Why is the Old Testament so different than the New, filled with war, rape, revenge, etc.

Also, I found this while waiting for your response:

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/inspiration.html

"Inspiration is that extraordinary or supernatural divine influence vouchsafed to those who wrote the Holy Scriptures, rendering their writings infallible.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (R.V., "Every scripture inspired of God"), 2 Tim. 3:16. This is true of all the "sacred writings," not in the sense of their being works of genius or of supernatural insight, but as "theopneustic," i.e., "breathed into by God" in such a sense that the writers were supernaturally guided to express exactly what God intended them to express as a revelation of his mind and will. The testimony of the sacred writers themselves abundantly demonstrates this truth; and if they are infallible as teachers of doctrine, then the doctrine of plenary inspiration must be accepted. There are no errors in the Bible as it came from God, none have been proved to exist. Difficulties and phenomena we cannot explain are not errors. All these books of the Old and New Testaments are inspired. We do not say that they contain, but that they are, the Word of God. The gift of inspiration rendered the writers the organs of God, for the infallible communication of his mind and will, in the very manner and words in which it was originally given.

As to the nature of inspiration we have no information. This only we know, it rendered the writers infallible. They were all equally inspired, and are all equally infallible. The inspiration of the sacred writers did not change their characters. They retained all their individual peculiarities as thinkers or writers."

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by RKF
No, what I mean is some of the prophecies are fulfilled then and others are fulfilled now.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere!

Could you give me a few examples of which of the book of Revelation's prophesies you believe were fulfilled in the 1st century?

No need to go overboard, 2 or 3 would do.

Thanks in Chirst,
P70

 

[Mandy]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Thanks, perhaps you are right.

One more thing though. Why is the Old Testament so different than the New, filled with war, rape, revenge, etc.

You're welcome. I'm not the best at explaining things so bear with me.
The Old Testament is different from the New because Jesus came to establish a new covenant in His blood because the Law could not save, because man wasn't able to keep it, there is more to it than that though. There was war because God gave Israel the promised land and mainly because the people who were in this area were godless people who worshiped false gods and practiced abominable rituals, which He didn't want Israel to start doing. Many times though they were attacked. Things like rape and revenge were not usually things that the old testament saits did. Although just like us today they weren't perfect either and just like us, they were sinners in need of a Savior.

Also, I found this while waiting for your response:

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/inspiration.html

&quot;Inspiration is that extraordinary or supernatural divine influence vouchsafed to those who wrote the Holy Scriptures, rendering their writings infallible.

&quot;All scripture is given by inspiration of God&quot; (R.V., &quot;Every scripture inspired of God&quot, 2 Tim. 3:16. This is true of all the &quot;sacred writings,&quot; not in the sense of their being works of genius or of supernatural insight, but as &quot;theopneustic,&quot; i.e., &quot;breathed into by God&quot; in such a sense that the writers were supernaturally guided to express exactly what God intended them to express as a revelation of his mind and will. The testimony of the sacred writers themselves abundantly demonstrates this truth; and if they are infallible as teachers of doctrine, then the doctrine of plenary inspiration must be accepted. There are no errors in the Bible as it came from God, none have been proved to exist. Difficulties and phenomena we cannot explain are not errors. All these books of the Old and New Testaments are inspired. We do not say that they contain, but that they are, the Word of God. The gift of inspiration rendered the writers the organs of God, for the infallible communication of his mind and will, in the very manner and words in which it was originally given.

As to the nature of inspiration we have no information. This only we know, it rendered the writers infallible. They were all equally inspired, and are all equally infallible. The inspiration of the sacred writers did not change their characters. They retained all their individual peculiarities as thinkers or writers.&quot;

That's very interesting and pretty much right on with what I believe. Very interesting site, thanks for the link.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Mandy

The Old Testament is different from the New because Jesus came to establish a new covenant in His blood because the Law could not save, because man wasn't able to keep it,

Couldn't keep it, or wouldn't? Why would God create a covenant that was impossible to keep? Wouldn't you agree that it was more of a second chance, than a new covenant?