Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

[DaDad]

CALVIN came to a FALSE conclusion, and so did all the other commentators. But the Expositors got it right.

Commentary on Daniel - Volume 1

Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah, by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense.​

Perhaps the literal text IS correct!

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[iamlamad]

claninja, the woman flees into the wilderness because the image of the beast has been setup during the 1260 days testimony time of the two witnesses, near the end of their 1260 days.

When the beast kills the two witnesses and their 1260 days are over and they ascend to heaven departing the earth - that leaves the beast free to wreak havoc without have to deal with the two witnesses. Which the time he has left is expressed as 42 months.

It during the 42 months that he persecutes the saints - and in Israel, the saints who did not flee to the mountains where they would have been protected - supernaturally.

On a timeline it would look like this.

day 1...................................................day 1263.5 (the two witnesses leave)...... 1256.5 days remaining which the bible calls 42 months (in Revelation).

Readers, this is myth, suggesting the two witnesses testify in the first half of the week. That is what is myth. They testify in the second half. Make no mistake, EVERY verse mentioning the 3 1/2 year period of time is speaking of the LAST HALF of the week. The bible gives us 7 such verses.

The truth is, they will finish their testimony just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. The Beast will be rendered helpless at that time by the vials of God's wrath. But not so helpless they cannot send gifts.

They SHOW UP right at their first mention. That is the way this book is written.

 

[iamlamad]

CALVIN came to a FALSE conclusion, and so did all the other commentators. But the Expositors got it right.

Commentary on Daniel - Volume 1

Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah, by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense.​

Perhaps the literal text IS correct!

Thanks,
DaDad

Strawman. It has nothing to do with the OP

 

[iamlamad]

... if I might propose, Daniel's seventy "weeks" are equally prophetic for the modern era, which is approximate to 1948. As such neither the Scriptures nor History support the "Classical" interpretation which you cite. But instead there is a TRUE fulflillment which can now be "unsealed".
Thanks,
DaDad

NOT! The first 69 were completed before Christ died. You are miles off here.

 

[iamlamad]

This is referring to Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

You have to cross reference to Daniel 7. For example, in Daniel 2, it says

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

What kings? The only king mentioned in the text of Daniel 2 is Nebuchadnezzer. .

WHO SAID we have to cross reference to chapter 7? Daniel 8 is not talking about The end times future to us. You are ad libing that part. It is not in the text - except by your imagination.

Did Persia have a king? Did Media have a king? Of course they did.
You and I disagree on many things because we don't read scripture the same.

 

[Choose Wisely]

What is happening here is you imagine a coming when there is none. Revelation shows ONE COMING: Period. (1) It is in Revelation 19.

Well here's a coming. What are you going to do with this coming in Rev 14 when he comes on the clouds to reap a harvest? He also cast the vine of the earth into the wrath of God. As you can see here.......another example of Revelation not being in order. If it was, how could the Wrath of God start at the 7th seal and then start again here. Does that mean that these people that are cast into the wrath of God in Rev 14 were just laying around having a good time until Jesus came.......yet again?

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

There will be another, but John did not see it so did not write it: it will be Paul's pretrib rapture that will come a moment before the 6th seal.

What do you mean, John didn't see it? Here it is. And it is absolutely a pre wrath rapture.
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If you are looking for a pretrib rapture, you won't see it identified. That's because Jesus says in an hour that you think not the son of man comes. He is not identifying the time of His coming, and he tells you that. The GOODMAN will not know when he is coming. And yet here we see the result........people in heaven from all tribes, peoples and nations in Rev 5...........before the seals are opened.......which is before the tribulation has begun.
Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The TRUTH: Satan's wrath begins when He is cast down, at the midpoint, which is at the 7th trumpet.

You always say the truth, myth, imagine and yet there is never any scriptural support of the things that you say. There is always an excuse........well, John didn't see it. Well if John didn't see it, how in the heck are you seeing it. Can you provide any scriptural support that shows that Satan is cast down at the 7th trumpet?

The problem with your theory is, God's wrath is concurrent with Satan's wrath: It is still happening since it started with the earthquake at the 6th seal and continues on through the trumpet judgments and vial judgments.

I don't see a problem. All you need to see is that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days..........the stars fall from heaven. Which is right before the wrath of God begins. Gods going to punish the whole lot together before he binds Satan.

Let's take the moment of the first vial poured out: It is filled with God's wrath, John tells us as much. But at the same time, Satan's wrath is in the murders or beheadings of those who refuse to worship the image or take the mark.

NO.......WAKE UP, read what the scripture says. The beheadings of those that refuse to take the mark happen in the tribulation in the middle of the week when the abomination of desolation is set up. That is the tribulation period. That is when those in Jerusalem are told to flee. Then we see that the tribulation is over........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.............

So at this moment in time, we see BOTH Satan's wrath (in the beheadings) and God's wrath as He pours out the vials- which will shorten those days of GT.

No, the beheadings happen in the tribulation period when you are required to take the mark. When Satan is cast down his goal is to destroy Israel. Also there are no vials being poured out during the tribulation. They are poured out in the wrath of God. The wrath of God comes after the tribulation.

This is another way of showing your theory of where the tribulation is, is bogus.

I have yet to see you produce a single thing that proves what I'm saying is wrong (As evidenced by the comparing of the coming in Rev 6 to the coming in Matt 24) beyond a blood colored moon that you claim is not giving it's light. And yet we have a dark sun, stars falling from heaven, the powers of heaven are shaken, we have a coming Christ, and we have a rapture. All lines up perfectly. You have one small opening if you are smart enough to find it..........but I'll close that one too.

 

[iamlamad]

She fled into the wilderness for this reason....

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Finally! We agree!

 

[iamlamad]

Kingdoms in verse 22 of four generals - their Kingdoms plural. Kingdom in verse 23 their kingdom singular. It is not the kingdom of the four generals - that you are claiming, but one general. It should therefore be "his" kingdom - but it doesn't say "his" kingdom, but their kingdom. The "their" refers to the transgressors in the text.

The focus on verse 23 is the (1) transgressors coming to the full (2) the king of fierce countenance standing up (3) at the later time of their kingdom.

This is referring to Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

You have to cross reference to Daniel 7. For example, in Daniel 2, it says

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

What kings? The only king mentioned in the text of Daniel 2 is Nebuchadnezzer. You have to cross-reference to Daniel 7:24, to realize the ten toes are the ten kings - that is, in the days of the ten kings.
____________________________________________________________________________

The commentators said Hillary was going to win the election, many said by a landslide - I would not go by the commentators - as being all knowing.

I would like for you to find among the commentators, you are citing...
1. That the 1260 days, the 42 months, the time times half times in Revelation are not exact equivalents of each other and why not.

2. Explain the difference of the crowns/no crowns difference on the heads and horns in Revelation 12, 13, 17.

How long are you going to argue after being proved wrong over and over and over?
Kingdom in verse 23 their kingdom singular.
You are basing your entire argument on a singly poorly translated word!
New International Version
"In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

New Living Translation
"At the end of their rule, when their sin is at its height, a fierce king, a master of intrigue, will rise to power.

Berean Study Bible
In the latter part of their reign, when the rebellion has reached its full measure, an insolent king, skilled in intrigue, will come to the throne.

New American Standard Bible
"In the latter period of their rule, When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue.

Christian Standard Bible
Near the end of their kingdoms, when the rebels have reached the full measure of their sin, a ruthless king, skilled in intrigue, will come to the throne.

Good News Translation
"When the end of those kingdoms is near and they have become so wicked that they must be punished, there will be a stubborn, vicious, and deceitful king.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Near the end of their kingdoms, when the rebels have reached the full measure of their sin, an insolent king, skilled in intrigue, will come to the throne.

International Standard Version
"Toward the end of their rule, as the desecrations proceed, an insolent king will arise, proficient at deception.

NET Bible
Toward the end of their rule, when rebellious acts are complete, a rash and deceitful king will arise.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"In the last days of those kingdoms, when rebellions are finished, a stern-looking king who understands mysterious things will rise to power.

New American Standard 1977
“And in the latter period of their rule, When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise Insolent and skilled in intrigue.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And at the end of their empire, when the prevaricators are come to the full, a king of arrogant countenance and expert in enigmas shall raise himself up.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And after their reign, when iniquities shall be grown up, there shall arise a king of a shameless face, and understanding dark sentences.

There goes your argument right down the tube! "Kingdom" is not a good translation.

Where is your argument in this translation?

21And the he goat, is the king of the Greeks, and the great horn that was between his eyes, the same is the first king. 22But whereas when that was broken, there arose up four for it: four kings shall rise up of his nation, but not with his strength.

23And after their reign, when iniquities shall be grown up, there shall arise a king of a shameless face, and understanding dark sentences.

You see, it disappears!
Find the highlighted word, "their." Do you remember your English class? We back up to find the first antecedent. What do we find? We find FOUR KINGS.

I hate to say this, but you are picking at gnats and coming up with false doctrine.

 

[ToServe]

Right! According to this then the Messiah came from the church!

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

The Church/Woman is pictured as being clothed with the Sun. These are symbols, allegories, and hyperboles used to convey a deeper understanding rather than the natural act of birthing as in who came first.

Obviously, the Sun is an allegory for the Sun of Righteousness prophesied by the Old Testament prophets like Malachi (Malachi 4:2). The "Sun" (radiance of God) is Jesus Christ the Son of God.

So the symbol of the Woman the Church before she actually births the child is viewed in Heaven as a prelude to the prophetic word of God that she only manifests in the world from the decrees of God of Heaven through the revelation of his Old Testament prophets.

The Woman was not yet in the world but was a prophetic vision from Heaven that did manifest in the world within the 1st Century when the Sun of Righteous would be her cloth. These symbols and allegories lead us to hyperboles in the area of deeper exegetical understanding of what the author is trying to convey.

We can ascertain that the Woman came only into being when the Son was in the world in order to clothe her. So the Woman could not have existed before the Son as her existence was in the mind of God as a heavenly Old Testament prophetic vision until she did manifest in the 1st Century.

She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

The Tribulation of the 12 disciples (messengers) who are the foundational 12 stars on her crown as the 1st Century Church is documented within the Acts of the Apostles. The Church did very much pain to deliver the symbol of the child as an allegory to giving birth, where the child is the Gospel, the Good News.

Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.

We have to discern the Text Type and interpret its symbols, allegories and hyperboles in order to understand that this is not about giving birth naturally or as to the question of who came first. As I mentioned initially the Woman could not have existed without the Son and so who came first is really not the focus of the author.

Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

A third of the founding disciples the twelve stars/messengers were imprisoned, beaten and killed as recorded by the chronology of the Acts of the Apostles.

The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

The Dragon who used the earthly Pharisaical agency tried to prevent the Gospel of the Son from being propagated and this is where Peter is told you shall no longer preach about Jesus. the birth is an allegory for the delivery of the Gospel and from the scriptural evidence, we discern that the Woman/Church of the 1st Century had huge obstacles thrown at it in order to prevent the Child/Gospel from being birthed/spread.

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

The Church finally succeeded in delivering the Gospel and the Gospel/Child was enthroned through the ministry of the Church.

The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

1260 is the remaining half of Daniel's 70th-week prophecy and the closure of the door of Grace/Mercy when the Woman/Church/Two Witnesses finishes her testimony.

The Beast of the Bottomless Pitt re-emerges from 1290 to take the Woman out of the way (worldwide martyrdom) and he rules for 1290 to 1335 during this time God unleashes his Final Judgement on the world later coinciding with the grand finale where Christ returns for the remaining living elect on a condemned planet that resembles an open graveyard.

We are at 1260 where the door is closing.

 

[Douggg]

WHO SAID we have to cross reference to chapter 7? Daniel 8 is not talking about The end times future to us. You are ad libing that part. It is not in the text - except by your imagination.

Did Persia have a king? Did Media have a king? Of course they did.
You and I disagree on many things because we don't read scripture the same.

The mulitple visions and prophecies Daniel was given was for a reason - they are interconnected. To the Kingdom of God and Jesus.

The vision of the little horn is end times to everyone. Because it is the closing chapter to the end of this age of Satan's kingdom having dominion over the kingdoms of this earth.

The issue is not denial that Persia and Media and Greece and the four breakup kingdoms had kings. Those are all in Daniel 8, as historically fulfilled. The issue is over the little horn and him in the end times. gaping in time from what is now ancient history.

 

[iamlamad]

Well here's a coming. What are you going to do with this coming in Rev 14 when he comes on the clouds to reap a harvest? He also cast the vine of the earth into the wrath of God. As you can see here.......another example of Revelation not being in order. If it was, how could the Wrath of God start at the 7th seal and then start again here. Does that mean that these people that are cast into the wrath of God in Rev 14 were just laying around having a good time until Jesus came.......yet again?

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So where is this coming? I did a computer search for "coming" and came up empty!

Ask yourself: WHERE is this temple in verse 15? It is the heavenly temple. So where is the cloud? It is a heavenly cloud. there is NOTHING in this text that hints Jesus descends to earth. Perhaps you need to refresh your mind and read chapter 19 again. Now THERE is a coming, very plainly written.

Now ask yourself another question: do you really think God will harvest people with a sickle? Think about it! The rapture will be the firstfruits of harvest. There will be no sickle!

In other words, this is a prophetic, symbolic picture of harvest, both of the righteous and of the wicked. There is nothing happening here but SYMBOLS to represent FUTURE events. Take for example to soon to come battle of Armageddon. Millions will die suddenly there.

So NO COMING here. That is imagination.
NO starting of God's wrath here: It started at the 6th seal and has not ended.
You simply amaze me.

 

[ToServe]

It is a theory but there is NO VERSE showing us exactly how long Jesus' ministry was. Yet, God saw fit to have many verses about how long the future last half of the week will be.

The 70th week has no gap and the Cross must be the mid point of the 70th week.

So you have the ministry of Christ until the mid point and the ministry of the two witnesses (The Church) for the remainder of the week until the Gentiles come to Full (Romans 11:25).

 

[iamlamad]

What do you mean, John didn't see it? Here it is. And it is absolutely a pre wrath rapture.
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If you are looking for a pretrib rapture, you won't see it identified. That's because Jesus says in an hour that you think not the son of man comes. He is not identifying the time of His coming, and he tells you that. The GOODMAN will not know when he is coming. And yet here we see the result........people in heaven from all tribes, peoples and nations in Rev 5...........before the seals are opened.......which is before the tribulation has begun.
Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


You always say the truth, myth, imagine and yet there is never any scriptural support of the things that you say. There is always an excuse........well, John didn't see it. Well if John didn't see it, how in the heck are you seeing it. Can you provide any scriptural support that shows that Satan is cast down at the 7th trumpet?

Let's see how Paul described the rapture:
1. A coming 1 thes. 4:15
2. The dead rise Verse 16
3. Those alive and in Christ are changed: verse 17
4 . The gathering as the dead now risen are gathered with those who were changed.
5. Paul tells us THE DAY will follow instantly 5:2, 5:3, 5:4, 5:9

Now let's compare with your verses:
1. The only "coming" is His wrath.
2. No people rise: rather, they go into holes and caves in the rocks and cry to be buried.
3. Again, no one rises, either dead or alive.
4. There is no gathering
5. The Day of His wrath comes.

have I ad libed anything? I took these things straight from scripture as proof.

If you are looking for a pretrib rapture, you won't see it identified.

This is myth - which it seems you are good at posting. Paul shows us his rapture comes a moment before THE DAY. In Revelation that would be just before the 6th seal. (NOT at the 6th seal as you stated). I know the "tribulation" or the 70th week begins with the 7th seal, so I see pretrib right out of the texts as written.
Would you deny that Paul's rapture comes before THE DAY?
Do you deny the "trib" starts at the 7th seal? Of course you do, because you don't know it yet. It is true anyway.

"the trib" cannot possibly be before the 6th seal, for those seals are history. That can be proven by scripture correctly understood. Since you don't understand, you want to argue every point. Go back and read chapter 5 again and notice the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. That happened around 32 AD.

You want to ADD 2000 years there. John warned us about adding to this book!

Of course Jesus will come when sinners are not looking for Him, but for us, he told us many times to WATCH. I will be expecting Him!

people in heaven from all tribes, peoples and nations in Rev 5...........before the seals are opened.......which is before the tribulation has begun.

Let me search chapter 5. I see that John saw the 24 elders - but no, no church. And why is that? Because the rapture will come just before the 6th seal. You have ad libed yet again!

Yes,, OF COURSE chapter 5 is before the tribulation, because that does not start until the 6th seal. NO seal is opened in chapter 5. But Jesus gets the book into his hands in chapter 5.
AH! You were referring to chapter 5. "hast redeemed us to God..." Did you catch WHO said that? Ah! It was the 24 elders - not the church.

Question: WHEN did Jesus redeem us who are still alive on earth? Was it not the moment He rose from the dead? Perhaps you would say when He died. Well, that is what they are saying here. NOT that the church has already be raptured! They are talking about what Jesus just accomplished.

I will repaste verse 5:9-10, just to show you I do use scripture.

Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

I do use "myth" a lot, because that is what you write.

Did you not read backwards from chapter 12 to see what main-line event just happened? The truth is, Michael has been waiting a long time to hear the sound of the 7th trumpet, for that will be HIS SIGNAL to take Satan down.

 

[ToServe]

... if I might propose, Daniel's seventy "weeks" are equally prophetic for the modern era, which is approximate to 1948. As such neither the Scriptures nor History support the "Classical" interpretation which you cite. But instead there is a TRUE fulflillment which can now be "unsealed".
Thanks,
DaDad

Today's 1948 may be a prelude to the Beast re-emerging

 

[DavidPT]

Readers, this is myth, suggesting the two witnesses testify in the first half of the week. That is what is myth. They testify in the second half. Make no mistake, EVERY verse mentioning the 3 1/2 year period of time is speaking of the LAST HALF of the week. The bible gives us 7 such verses.

The truth is, they will finish their testimony just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. The Beast will be rendered helpless at that time by the vials of God's wrath. But not so helpless they cannot send gifts.

They SHOW UP right at their first mention. That is the way this book is written.

It's not a myth. There are two 3.5 year periods in Revelation 11 and 13. Together they add up to 7 years. The 42 month reign of the beast is the GT and it follows after the 3.5 years the 2W testify.

If you will notice---

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

This indicates the 2W are pretty much in control of things at the time.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

This indicates the beast is pretty much in control at the time. If these two periods of time are running in parallel, thus only 3.5 years total in view, rather than 7 years total in view, why isn't the beast trying to kill the 2W during this 3.5 years since it would be obvious that they would refuse to worship it? Does not the text say this of those who refuse to worship the image of the beast----and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed?

Yet the beast doesn't even wage war against the 2W until the 3.5 years are finished first, in regards to their prophesying. And that Revelation 13 indicates it is only during the 42 months when the beast wages war on anyone. Believe what you want though. You likely have your mind already made up about some of these things, therefore likely not interested in entertaining the possibility that you might be wrong about some of these things.

 

[ToServe]

What you are showing us is that you don't understand a "type." Perhaps you should study this term.

Let me assist you a little:
Antiochus polluted the temple of God by sacrificing a pig and putting an image of Zeus in the most holy place in the temple. it was an abomination.

The future Antichrist will put HIMSELF in the most holy place and declare HE is God. It seems He will put an image there also. This also will be an abomination.

Antiochus could have slaughtered 1000 pigs on the altar within the desolate and without Holy Spirit temple and at the same time had wild sex partys and still he would not qualified as an Antichrist or his actions as an abomination to God.

In fact the Holy of Holies is where our mediator Jesus ascended into heaven to intercess on our behalves.

What Antiochus did is prophetic in that it was not God's temple but as Antiochus had claimed it to be the temple of Zeus.

There is absolutely no offense in what Antiochus did and Antiochus never had the truth to begin with in order to qualify as an Antichrist or type.

 

[iamlamad]

It's not a myth. There are two 3.5 year periods in Revelation 11 and 13. Together they add up to 7 years. The 42 month reign of the beast is the GT and it follows after the 3.5 years the 2W testify.

If you will notice---

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

This indicates the 2W are pretty much in control of things at the time.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

This indicates the beast is pretty much in control at the time. If these two periods of time are running in parallel, thus only 3.5 years total in view, rather than 7 years total in view, why isn't the beast trying to kill the 2W during this 3.5 years since it would be obvious that they would refuse to worship it? Does not the text say this of those who refuse to worship the image of the beast----and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed?

Yet the beast doesn't even wage war against the 2W until the 3.5 years are finished first, in regards to their prophesying. And that Revelation 13 indicates it is only during the 42 months when the beast wages war on anyone. Believe what you want though. You likely have your mind already made up about some of these things, therefore likely not interested in entertaining the possibility that you might be wrong about some of these things.

It is a myth. Every mention of the 3 1/2 year period of time is for the last half of the week.

All through Revelation things happen at their point of mention. The two witnesses are not an exception. John saw them first right after the 42 months of trampling. That is when they show up. WHY there? It is simple, verses 1 & 2 show the man of sin arriving in Jerusalem, so he can enter the temple in Jerusalem. He comes with Gentile armies - probably Muslim armies. So the city will be trampled for the next 42 months. This is John's first hint he is at the midpoint. Do you imagine He would be at the midpoint of the week in one verse, and jump back to the beginning of the week in the next verse? It will never happen!

One think you probably have missed: 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis. In other words, verses 1 & 2 are just before the midpoint - probably 3 1/2 days before, and verse 14 is AT the midpoint. In fact, 12:6 is only a second or two after the midpoint.

The Two Witnesses show up then because HE showed up then - the man of sin - just 3 1/2 days before he will enter the temple and declare he is God. After all, he MUST be in Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem.

It shows that they cannot be killed until they are finished. Once they have completed their 1260 days, taking them to just before the end of the week, apparently their fire no longer works and the beast kills them.

Yes, we have other verses showing that the Beast will overcome the saints. But there is NO VERSE showing he overcomes the two witnesses. He knows they are supernaturally protected.

I understand your argument, but you are using human reasoning, not scripture. John shows us the moment they show up, and tells us right then. The Beast is wise enough not to get burned up! He leaves them alone until they are finished. I am sure he knows what is written about them - it is common knowledge to those who read the scriptures.

 

[sparow]

Yes, 360 x 3.5 = 1260. If the passage stated years, then I would agree with you. But it does not. It states 1260 days and time, times, and half a time.



Sorry, just need clarification, why are you bringing up Sabbath keeping churches?



I agree, the gospel did not go to the gentiles until at least 3.5 years after Christ's death and resurrection. For 3.5 years after Christ's death, the gospel went specifically to the Jews.



The messiah was revealed to Israel by John. This is when Jesus began preaching, 3.5 years before his death.
John 1:31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

I believe Jesus' ministry for 3.5 years confirmed the covenant with Israel
I believe Jesus' death and resurrection confirmed the covenant mid way through
I believe the sending of the holy spirit after Christ's ascension confirmed the covenant with Israel
I believe the gospel going specifically to the Jews, via the holy spirit, for 3.5 years confirmed the covenant with Israel.

After this final week, the gospel went to the nations.

<<Yes, 360 x 3.5 = 1260. If the passage stated years, then I would agree with you. But it does not. It states 1260 days and time, times, and half a time.>>

There are implications. I was surprised to find that the 360 day year is not mentioned in scripture, but it is implied.

I have never encountered anyone (but they do exist) who didn't believe the seventy week prophesy meant 490 years even though the scriptures say weeks; or that the one week of confirming the covenant meant seven years.

<<Sorry, just need clarification, why are you bringing up Sabbath keeping churches?>>

Why do you ask, do you find the Sabbath offensive?
The church that fled into the wilderness (Rev 12:6) is the same Israelite church (which includes all of historical Israel who were in covenant with God) mentioned in Rev 12:1. The church that came under Roman control at Nicaea in the third centaury did not wear a tiara of 12 stars.

The Sabbath keeping church from Jerusalem is the one that disappears from history or out of the reach of Rome, for the required time.

For the first 3.5 years Jesus re-established the covenant with the lost sheep of Israel. The Gospel that John and Jesus preached was, "Repent, the kingdom of God is near." Implicit in the Gospel is the Law, which includes the Sabbath.​

 

[iamlamad]

Antiochus could have slaughtered 1000 pigs on the altar within the desolate and without Holy Spirit temple and at the same time had wild sex partys and still he would not qualified as an Antichrist or his actions as an abomination to God.

In fact the Holy of Holies is where our mediator Jesus ascended into heaven to intercess on our behalves.

What Antiochus did is prophetic in that it was not God's temple but as Antiochus had claimed it to be the temple of Zeus.

There is absolutely no offense in what Antiochus did and Antiochus never had the truth to begin with in order to qualify as an Antichrist or type.

Why are you getting so wound up? NO ONE is saying He is the Antichrist. I have only said he is a TYPE of the Antichrist. Perhaps you should study "types."

Daniel 8
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan 11:
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
27 And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Verse 36 switches to the Antichrist.

Question: why do you think God and Daniel would spend so many verses on a nothing nobody? Answer: they wouldn't. It is because Antiochus is a TYPE of the Antichrist, because the Antichrist will do some of the same things. And Daniel says is DID to an abomination.

 

[ToServe]

Daniel 12:7
"It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

This time, times and half a time is the ministry of the two witnesses the Church at the close of 1260 days at the end of Daniel's 70th week.

Daniel 12:11-12
“From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

So the Beast of the Bottomless Pitt emerges at the end of the 3.5 days (1260) of Daniel's 70th week to start to martyr the Church (two witnesses).

The Beast removes these Living Stones (body of Christ) at 1290 days, by abolishing the Daily Sacrifice to which these Living Stones offer their bodies whilst carrying their crosses as a living memorial to Christ (Romans 12:1)

Those blessed from 1290 to 1335 at Christ's return are the remaining Elect who are gathered by Angels to a safe location on earth away from the Beast and told to hide in their Angelic provided chambers until the indignation poured out on planet earth is passed. When they come out of their chambers the earth then represents a desolate, pitch black graveyard planet whereas before it was like the Garden of Eden. Joel 2 poetically describes these last elect held up on the mountain of God before Christ's brilliant coming.

Then the Beast comes to make his final war with them as follows

The Judgment of Satan

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The fire that devours Satan and his armies is the brilliant coming of Christ.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:8)