Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

[DaDad]

...
Daniel 10 states there would be 4 more kings of persia until Greece showed up on the scene as a world power, however, you posted more than 4 kings of Persia leading up to Greece. So how do you reconcile the discrepancy of Biblical prophecy with the secular timeline you posted?

The first thing you have to do is establish the Starting Point, -- which is the Babylonian Empire. Then we can proceed from there. Agreed?

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[claninja]

Daniel DIED in the First year of KING Cyrus:

Incorrect. The Hebrew word for "continue" does not mean die. The verse simply states Daniel stayed/remained until the 1st year of King Cyrus. Where was Daniel? he was in Babylon. Daniel remained in Babylon until the 1st year of King Cyrus.

Look at the way Hebrew word for "continue" is used in other passages:

Did Moses die on the mountain?
Exodus 24:18 Then Moses entered the cloud as he went on up the mountain. And he stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights.

Does an ox die before the brother seeks
Deuteronomy 22:1-2 You shall not see your brother’s ox or his sheep going astray and ignore them. You shall take them back to your brother. And if he does not live near you and you do not know who he is, you shall bring it home to your house, and it shall stay with you until your brother seeks it.

aniel DIED in the First year of KING Cyrus:
Daniel 1:21 And Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.

Cyrus was still called the king of Persia AFTER Babylon had been conquered.
"IN THE FIRST YEAR OF CYRUS KING OF PERSIA"


2 Chronicles 35:22-23 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and also to put it in writing:
“This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
“ ‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Any of his people among you may go up, and may the Lord their God be with them.’ ”

Cyrus was ONLY king over the PERSIANS:
Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia

Cyrus was king over more that just the Persians in his first year
2 Chronicles 35:23 “ ‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me ALL THE KINGDOMS of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Any of his people among you may go up, and may the Lord their God be with them.’ ”

The first thing you have to do is establish the Starting Point, -- which is the Babylonian Empire. Then we can proceed from there. Agreed?

Agreed

 

[Douggg]

She fled into the wilderness because the dragon chased her:
Revelation 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

She fled into the wilderness for this reason....

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Douggg]

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. [Four separate divisions, but still all GREECE - still one NATION of Greece.]

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, [latter time of their (all four meaning of course the four generals of Alexander) rule. So here Daniel tells us what "end" he was refering to in the above verses: the end of the "indignation" that which Antiochus caused. It is the end of the Grecian rule in that part of the world] when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Kingdoms in verse 22 of four generals - their Kingdoms plural. Kingdom in verse 23 their kingdom singular. It is not the kingdom of the four generals - that you are claiming, but one general. It should therefore be "his" kingdom - but it doesn't say "his" kingdom, but their kingdom. The "their" refers to the transgressors in the text.

The focus on verse 23 is the (1) transgressors coming to the full (2) the king of fierce countenance standing up (3) at the later time of their kingdom.

This is referring to Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

You have to cross reference to Daniel 7. For example, in Daniel 2, it says

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

What kings? The only king mentioned in the text of Daniel 2 is Nebuchadnezzer. You have to cross-reference to Daniel 7:24, to realize the ten toes are the ten kings - that is, in the days of the ten kings.
____________________________________________________________________________

The commentators said Hillary was going to win the election, many said by a landslide - I would not go by the commentators - as being all knowing.

I would like for you to find among the commentators, you are citing...
1. That the 1260 days, the 42 months, the time times half times in Revelation are not exact equivalents of each other and why not.

2. Explain the difference of the crowns/no crowns difference on the heads and horns in Revelation 12, 13, 17.

 

[claninja]

She fled into the wilderness for this reason....

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So you believe the woman flees into the wilderness because of the great tribulation?
Matthew 24:16, 21 let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Then when are the saints given over to the beast for 42 months?
Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 13:5-7 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling,a that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them

 

[Douggg]

So you believe the woman flees into the wilderness because of the great tribulation?
Matthew 24:16, 21 let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Then when are the saints given over to the beast for 42 months?
Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 13:5-7 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling,a that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them

claninja, the woman flees into the wilderness because the image of the beast has been setup during the 1260 days testimony time of the two witnesses, near the end of their 1260 days.

When the beast kills the two witnesses and their 1260 days are over and they ascend to heaven departing the earth - that leaves the beast free to wreak havoc without have to deal with the two witnesses. Which the time he has left is expressed as 42 months.

It during the 42 months that he persecutes the saints - and in Israel, the saints who did not flee to the mountains where they would have been protected - supernaturally.

On a timeline it would look like this.

day 1...................................................day 1263.5 (the two witnesses leave)...... 1256.5 days remaining which the bible calls 42 months (in Revelation).

 

[Solomon Smith]

The 1260 days spoken of in Revelation is equal to that spoken of in Daniel 12. I think it is probably the second half of the 7 year tribulation. Daniel 9:27 states: In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

Then there will be another 3 and 1/2 years after that.

 

[DaDad]

Incorrect. The Hebrew word for "continue" does not mean die.

Calvin's expositors disagree:

Commentary on Daniel - Volume 1

Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah, by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense.​

... and because Calvin couldn't reconcile 1:21 with 10:1, he disregarded 1:21 in deference to 10:1. But GOD says ALL Scripture is given, -- so they must BOTH be correct, as I've suggested.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[BABerean2]

Of course this is myth: 99.99999% of the church know the entire 70th week is FUTURE.

Then 99.99999% of the church is ignoring Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which reveal a time period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

This concept is found below in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores with his Two Peoples of God doctrine.


Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

 

[DaDad]

Cyrus was still called the king of Persia AFTER Babylon had been conquered.
"IN THE FIRST YEAR OF CYRUS KING OF PERSIA"

Perhaps you have a Scripture citation for your reference, -- preferably out of the Book of Daniel.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[ToServe]

I have just proved over and over BY THE TEXT that it is not about events future to us. The entire context is Persia and Greece. There is no way it is talking about end times EXCEPT that Antiochus was indeed a TYPE of the future Antichrist.

Hello friend, I wanted to point out that for an individual to be an Antichrist they must present themselves as being for Christ and at the same time be opposed to Christ through diametrically opposite wills and purpose.

Was Antiochus a Christian who respected the God of the Bible?

Antiochus made a decree outlawing Jewish rites and worship, ordering the Jews to worship Zeus rather than Yahweh.

let us see how John qualifies an Antichrist.

Warnings Against Denying the Son

18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.22Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does ?, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

Notice John is saying if what you have heard from the beginning remains in you? If it does?

Was Antiochus ever in possession of the truth from the beginning?

Then how can he be a type or even an Antichrist in the first place?

Logic demands that we must qualify someone as an Antichrist before associating that person with actions that would suggest it. Antiochus actions suggest he was an Antichrist but he can not be an Antichrist because he never had the truth, to begin with.

A fallen one like Judas Iscariot who is a Son of Perdition can be qualified as an Antichrist and so too can be fallen from the faith once believers in Christ. Paul calls these people, the people of sin (man of sin).

 

[ToServe]

It can be exegetically proven that there should be absolutely no gap theory within Daniel's 70th week or the final week before Christ's return to judge the living and the dead.

Jesus ministry accounts for the first half of Daniel's 70th week, where he preaches to the Jews first and hence the declaration "salvation has come to the Jews first".

So the first half of the 70th week Jesus the Messiah confirms the Covenant of God within the New Testament Holy Spirit Temple Construct and then in the middle of the week he is cut-off, that is crucified.

The second half of Daniel's 70th week is the ministry of the Church in making disciples of all the world before Christ returns at the end of the Great Harvest at the Final Judgement of the Dead when the books are opened and he judges the living and the dead.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing when we sit here behind our devices and dialogue with one another and prove to ourselves that we are recipients to that open declaration of making disciples of all the world and so it remains that we must be still living in that remaining half of Daniel's 70th week.

When the Church who is the symbol of the two witnesses that Jesus originally sent in twos has finally finished her testimony then the beast of the bottomless Pitt will re-emerge to take out the Church who withholds the people of sin (Man of sin aka Antichrists) and during this time the door of mercy is closed and the world placed under impending final judgement of destruction (Malachi 4).

 

[ToServe]

The Woman is the Church that symbolises the two olive trees (The two witnesses) who stand before God as representatives on earth who minister the Gospel of the Son, that is why she is clothed with the Sun (SON) and the Moon (Mosaic Law) under her feet by being fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

She is given wings for the purpose of spreading the gospel of the Son as her offspring are those who hold the testimony of Jesus Christ.

After the remaining half of Daniel's 70th week after she is removed out of the way, she is resurrected after 3.5 days which points to the end of the 70th week where the door of mercy is closed and now the final judgement stands at the door.

So you have 3.5 days Christ's ministry and then the Cross, then after the remaining 3.5 days from the Cross until the door of mercy is closed.

 

[iamlamad]

The Woman is the Church that symbolises the two olive trees (The two witnesses) who stand before God as representatives on earth who minister the Gospel of the Son, that is why she is clothed with the Sun (SON) and the Moon (Mosaic Law) under her feet by being fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

She is given wings for the purpose of spreading the gospel of the Son as her offspring are those who hold the testimony of Jesus Christ.

After the remaining half of Daniel's 70th week after she is removed out of the way, she is resurrected after 3.5 days which points to the end of the 70th week where the door of mercy is closed and now the final judgement stands at the door.

So you have 3.5 days Christ's ministry and then the Cross, then after the remaining 3.5 days from the Cross until the door of mercy is closed.

Right! According to this then the Messiah came from the church!

 

[iamlamad]

It can be exegetically proven that there should be absolutely no gap theory within Daniel's 70th week or the final week before Christ's return to judge the living and the dead.

Jesus ministry accounts for the first half of Daniel's 70th week, where he preaches to the Jews first and hence the declaration "salvation has come to the Jews first".

So the first half of the 70th week Jesus the Messiah confirms the Covenant of God within the New Testament Holy Spirit Temple Construct and then in the middle of the week he is cut-off, that is crucified.

The second half of Daniel's 70th week is the ministry of the Church in making disciples of all the world before Christ returns at the end of the Great Harvest at the Final Judgement of the Dead when the books are opened and he judges the living and the dead.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing when we sit here behind our devices and dialogue with one another and prove to ourselves that we are recipients to that open declaration of making disciples of all the world and so it remains that we must be still living in that remaining half of Daniel's 70th week.

When the Church who is the symbol of the two witnesses that Jesus originally sent in twos has finally finished her testimony then the beast of the bottomless Pitt will re-emerge to take out the Church who withholds the people of sin (Man of sin aka Antichrists) and during this time the door of mercy is closed and the world placed under impending final judgement of destruction (Malachi 4).

It is a theory but there is NO VERSE showing us exactly how long Jesus' ministry was. Yet, God saw fit to have many verses about how long the future last half of the week will be.

 

[DaDad]

Hello friend, I wanted to point out that for an individual to be an Antichrist they must present themselves as being for Christ and at the same time be opposed to Christ through diametrically opposite wills and purpose.

Hi ToServe,
Just as a point of reference, in Daniel 12:4 & 9, the angels instructed that the Book of Daniel is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, but people with crowbars have attempted to force ancient history into this modern-prophetic Book.
With Best Regards,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

Jesus ministry accounts for the first half of Daniel's 70th week, ...

... if I might propose, Daniel's seventy "weeks" are equally prophetic for the modern era, which is approximate to 1948. As such neither the Scriptures nor History support the "Classical" interpretation which you cite. But instead there is a TRUE fulflillment which can now be "unsealed".
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[iamlamad]

Hello friend, I wanted to point out that for an individual to be an Antichrist they must present themselves as being for Christ and at the same time be opposed to Christ through diametrically opposite wills and purpose.

Was Antiochus a Christian who respected the God of the Bible?

Antiochus made a decree outlawing Jewish rites and worship, ordering the Jews to worship Zeus rather than Yahweh.

let us see how John qualifies an Antichrist.

Warnings Against Denying the Son

Notice John is saying if what you have heard from the beginning remains in you? If it does?

Was Antiochus ever in possession of the truth from the beginning?

Then how can he be a type or even an Antichrist in the first place?

Logic demands that we must qualify someone as an Antichrist before associating that person with actions that would suggest it. Antiochus actions suggest he was an Antichrist but he can not be an Antichrist because he never had the truth, to begin with.

A fallen one like Judas Iscariot who is a Son of Perdition can be qualified as an Antichrist and so too can be fallen from the faith once believers in Christ. Paul calls these people, the people of sin (man of sin).

What you are showing us is that you don't understand a "type." Perhaps you should study this term.

Let me assist you a little:
Antiochus polluted the temple of God by sacrificing a pig and putting an image of Zeus in the most holy place in the temple. it was an abomination.

The future Antichrist will put HIMSELF in the most holy place and declare HE is God. It seems He will put an image there also. This also will be an abomination.

 

[iamlamad]

Hi ToServe,
Just as a point of reference, in Daniel 12:4 & 9, the angels instructed that the Book of Daniel is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, but people with crowbars have attempted to force ancient history into this modern-prophetic Book.
With Best Regards,
DaDad

How funny! Some things, like Antiochus Epiphanes bad deeds, were future to Daniel but history to us. In fact, all of chapter 8 is history to us now, but was future to Daniel.

 

[iamlamad]

Calvin's expositors disagree:

Commentary on Daniel - Volume 1

Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah, by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense.​

... and because Calvin couldn't reconcile 1:21 with 10:1, he disregarded 1:21 in deference to 10:1. But GOD says ALL Scripture is given, -- so they must BOTH be correct, as I've suggested.

Thanks,
DaDad

Ellicott's commentary:
Continued: The phrase does not mean that “he prophesied,” but that he lived until the time specified; by no means implying that he died in the first year of Cyrus.

Benson Commentary: the expression, unto, or till, the first year, is not intended to signify that he lived no longer; for it appears, from Daniel 10:1, that he lived at least till the third year of that monarch,

Barne's notes:
. It is not necessarily implied that he did not "live" longer, or even that he ceased then to have influence and authority at court, but the object of the writer is to show that, during that long and eventful period, he occupied a station of influence until the captivity was accomplished, and the royal order was issued for rebuilding the temple.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary:
Daniel continued … unto … first year of Cyrus—(2Ch 36:22; Ezr 1:1). Not that he did not continue beyond that year, but the expression is designed to mark the fact that he who was one of the first captives taken to Babylon, lived to see the end of the captivity.

Matthew Poole Commentary:
He might live longer, for the word until doth not exclude things that follow after,

Gill's Commentary:
not that Daniel died in the first year of Cyrus; or went from Babylon with the rest of the Jews to Jerusalem upon the proclamation of Cyrus, as Jacchiades thinks; for we hear of him at the river Hiddekel, in the third year of Cyrus, Daniel 10:1,

Cambridge Bible notes:
He is mentioned indeed as still alive in the third year of Cyrus (Daniel 10:1); but that fact is here left out of consideration.

DaDad, can we be done with this strawman now? You have created an issue out of nothing.