Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

Douggg · Sep 25, 2018

DaDad said:
Choose ONE.

Thanks,
DaDad

You have a choice of whichever one in my post #171. I think I am going to explane Chapter 8 and Chapter 9 next, to show how those are completed by Jesus's return.

I created another thread since this is not the topic of this thread.

Kenneth Redden · Sep 25, 2018

claninja said:
Revelation 12 in chronological order:

Israel gives rise to the messiah; Jesus then ascends to heaven
Revelation 12:1-5 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

After Jesus is caught up to God and to his throne, receives his kingdom, and is given authority, Satan is thrown down out of heaven. The dragon then pursues the woman (Israel)
Revelation 12:7-13 7Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothersb has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

Israel is nourished for 3.5 years after Christ is caught up to God. Satan, furious of this, goes off to make war with Israel's offspring.
Revelation 12:6,14-17 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

What is the significance of this 3.5 years?

No, I disagree. How do you figure, "a time, and times, and half a time" (Rev 6:14 KJV) equals 1,260 days?

BABerean2 · Sep 25, 2018

Douggg said:
The gaps are there because of the visions are completed by Jesus's return.

The only way you can force a gap into Daniel chapter 9 is by ignoring the time of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews before Paul began his mission to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, as revealed by Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

You are also ignoring the fact that Christ is the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
You seem to think the angel Gabriel failed to even mention the New Covenant.

The following is from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

Douggg · Sep 25, 2018

BABerean2 said:
The only way you can force a gap into Daniel chapter 9 is by ignoring the time of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews before Paul began his mission to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, as revealed by Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

You are also ignoring the fact that Christ is the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
You seem to think the angel Gabriel failed to even mention the New Covenant.

The following is from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

If Daniel 9 dose not gap to the end times, and completes with Jesus's Return, John would not have said...Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Reveation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

claninja · Sep 25, 2018

DaDad said:
Did you miss what the verse actually says?

I don't think so? It literally states a word was revealed to Daniel IN THE 3RD YEAR OF CYRUS KING OF PERSIA, no?
Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a word was revealed to Daniel

DaDad said:
1:21 says Daniel DIED in the FIRST year of KING Cyrus:
21 And Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.

Obviously Daniel lived longer than the 1st year of Cyrus, because Daniel 10 states he was around in the 3rd year of Cyrus king of Persia. So maybe your interpretation is incorrect? Additionally, I don't think there is a word for "died" in Daniel 1:21.

DaDad said:
So now you have to figure out exactly WHAT Cyrus was "king-OVER" in 10:1.

It says he was king of Persia, no?
Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a word was revealed to Daniel

DaDad said:
Could it be that Cyrus hadn't yet conquered the Babylonians, and he was ONLY King of the Persians?

Are you saying that Daniel 10:1 "in the 3rd year" takes place before cyrus' 1st? last time I checked, 3 comes after 1.

Cyrus was king of persia under the mede empire, before babylon was conquered. Are you saying the 3rd year of Daniel 10 is in regards to before persia/mede conquered babylon?

DaDad said:
And after Cyrus conquered the Babylonians, then he was KING over Daniel?

sure.

DaDad said:
That what is says in black and white.

I agree

DaDad said:
Did you want to re-write what Daniel recorded?

which part was I rewriting? I asked you a simple questions and you didn't even respond to it. So i'll as again:

The angel tells Daniel there will only be 4 more kings of Persia until Greece:
Daniel 11:2 “Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will arise in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece.

However, you have listed a lot more kings than that. How do you reconcile that discrepancy?

BABerean2 · Sep 25, 2018

Douggg said:
If Daniel 9 dose not gap to the end times, and completes with Jesus's Return, John would not have said...Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Reveation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

iamlamad · Sep 25, 2018

Kenneth Redden said:
No, I disagree. How do you figure, "a time, and times, and half a time" (Rev 6:14 KJV) equals 1,260 days?

Simple: God uses a 360 day year in prophecy.
360
360
360
180
------
1260

claninja · Sep 25, 2018

sparow said:
Arithmetic determines the matter. The Bible defines a year as 360 days, 360 x 3.5 = 1260.

Yes, 360 x 3.5 = 1260. If the passage stated years, then I would agree with you. But it does not. It states 1260 days and time, times, and half a time.

sparow said:
Has there been a time in history when the church has not been persecuted? The Sabbath keeping, Jerusalem church, under James and the apostles continued until the third centaury when it disappeared from history. But when the Inquisitions arrive there are Sabbath keeping churches all over the place, not in subjection to the Papacy. Patrick of Ireland was a Sabbath keeper, it took 400 years of Inquisition to convert Spain from Sabbath to Sunday; the Sabbath keeping church in India, started by the apostle Thomas, endured until after the council of Trent, until it was invaded by Jesuits. The last Sabbath keeping church to go under was in the mountains of Italy. There does seem to be an interval of 1200 + years in the history of the Sabbath keeping church, from the third centaury until the Inquisitions.

Sorry, just need clarification, why are you bringing up Sabbath keeping churches?

sparow said:
do not dispute that after 3.5 years the covenant was extended to the gentiles. Even if the covenant going to the gentiles was implicit in the covenant, it did not happen during then 3.5 years.

I agree, the gospel did not go to the gentiles until at least 3.5 years after Christ's death and resurrection. For 3.5 years after Christ's death, the gospel went specifically to the Jews.

sparow said:
The issue revolves around what it means to confirm the covenant; confirming is where the promise and God's responsibilities under the contract are brought to fruition; Jesus's presence as Messiah and King is the covenant confirmed

The messiah was revealed to Israel by John. This is when Jesus began preaching, 3.5 years before his death.
John 1:31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

I believe Jesus' ministry for 3.5 years confirmed the covenant with Israel
I believe Jesus' death and resurrection confirmed the covenant mid way through
I believe the sending of the holy spirit after Christ's ascension confirmed the covenant with Israel
I believe the gospel going specifically to the Jews, via the holy spirit, for 3.5 years confirmed the covenant with Israel.

After this final week, the gospel went to the nations.

Douggg · Sep 25, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

spam

claninja · Sep 25, 2018

Kenneth Redden said:
No, I disagree. How do you figure, "a time, and times, and half a time" (Rev 6:14 KJV) equals 1,260 days?

The woman is nourished for 1260 days, Why did she flee into the wilderness?
revelation 12:6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

She fled into the wilderness because the dragon chased her:
Revelation 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

But the woman was nourished in the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time.
Revelation 12:13 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

So either, the woman flees twice and is nourished twice in the wilderness, or revelation 12:6 = revelation 12:14. And if revelation 12:6 = revelation 12:14, then 1260 days = time,times,half a time

iamlamad · Sep 25, 2018

Douggg said:
I gave you the text of what vision and highlighted it on top of that in my post #159 in this thread.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

If it is one Seleucid kingdom- it would not be in the latter time of their Kingdom, in verse 23 would it, since it was four kingdoms in verse 22?

The problem you got is that there are four kingdoms in verse 22, none of which is their kingdom, because they are all separate with separate kings. In verse 23, the "their" kingdom refers to the Kingdom of the transgressors - the host given to the little horn. At the later time of their kingdom is the final stage of the EU, which has gone through several stages.

You must take off your preconceived glasses and just read it as it is written:

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. [we need to qualify: WHAT "end?" The text below will tell us.]

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. [Again we need to ask, WHAT end of what "indignation?" Again the text below will tell us.]

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
[here is the answer you ignore due to your preconceptions: the indignation involves the ram indicating Media and Persia: God is not talking about our future but about Daniel's future and our history.]
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. [Here it is clearly talking about Alexander and Greece, not about anything in our future.]

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. [Four separate divisions, but still all GREECE - still one NATION of Greece.]

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, [latter time of their (all four meaning of course the four generals of Alexander) rule. So here Daniel tells us what "end" he was refering to in the above verses: the end of the "indignation" that which Antiochus caused. It is the end of the Grecian rule in that part of the world] when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
[Who else can this be but Antiochus Epiphanes? He came in the later time of THEIR (the four generals] rule.]

I showed you that most of the commentators can read this passage without preconceptions. It seems you still read with these glasses on, and therefore can read ONLY what your preconceptions allow you to read. It is possible your entire preconception comes from a poor translation: "kingdom" when a better translation is "rule."

Look at "their" in verse 23: what can it refer to? It can refer ONLY to the antecedent we see in verse 22: the four divisions of the Grecian Empire after Alexander died.

It is as I have always maintained: this chapter is all history: there is nothing in it for our future except that Antiochus was a TYPE of the Beast.

It would be just common sense, if you disagree with almost all commentators, that you reconsider your theory. "Their" always refers back to the antecedent: in this case the four generals. It can mean nothing else if words mean anything at all.

iamlamad · Sep 25, 2018

claninja said:
The woman is nourished for 1260 days, Why did she flee into the wilderness?
revelation 12:6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

She fled into the wilderness because the dragon chased her:
Revelation 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

But the woman was nourished in the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time.
Revelation 12:13 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

So either, the woman flees twice and is nourished twice in the wilderness, or revelation 12:6 = revelation 12:14. And if revelation 12:6 = revelation 12:14, then 1260 days = time,times,half a time

You are mistaken on one point.

Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

This is why the woman BEGAN to flee: she was following Jesus' command.
Of course she does not flee twice: the time, times and half of time is just another way of saying 1260 days. John covers this time in days, months and years, so we can get it. Good job!

iamlamad · Sep 25, 2018

Douggg said:
spam

Ha ha ha ha! Thanks for a good laugh!

iamlamad · Sep 25, 2018

claninja said:
Yes, 360 x 3.5 = 1260. If the passage stated years, then I would agree with you. But it does not. It states 1260 days and time, times, and half a time.

Sorry, just need clarification, why are you bringing up Sabbath keeping churches?

I agree, the gospel did not go to the gentiles until at least 3.5 years after Christ's death and resurrection. For 3.5 years after Christ's death, the gospel went specifically to the Jews.

The messiah was revealed to Israel by John. This is when Jesus began preaching, 3.5 years before his death.
John 1:31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

I believe Jesus' ministry for 3.5 years confirmed the covenant with Israel
I believe Jesus' death and resurrection confirmed the covenant mid way through
I believe the sending of the holy spirit after Christ's ascension confirmed the covenant with Israel
I believe the gospel going specifically to the Jews, via the holy spirit, for 3.5 years confirmed the covenant with Israel.

After this final week, the gospel went to the nations.

Of course this is myth: 99.99999% of the church know the entire 70th week is FUTURE.

iamlamad · Sep 25, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
What are you talking about it fits like a glove. The only thing you think you can find wrong is one says moon as blood and one says moon does not give its light.............and a blood moon doesn't give it's light. We see three comings of Jesus above. One in Rev 14 and one in Rev 6 and one in Matt 24. There is also one in Rev 19. So what are you going to do with these 4 comings of Christ. You think Matt 24 and Rev 19 are the same coming..........BUT THEY ARE NOT. Matthew 24 is a gathering. Rev 19 is Christ coming on a white horse. What are you going to do with all these comings? And of course there is the pretribulation coming in Rev 4 that you can't seem to find even though we can see the church in Rev 5.

You are correct in that the tribulation is not Satan's wrath. However, Satan being cast to the earth is shown in Rev 6 with the stars falling from heaven. The midpoint is in the 1st 6 seals. Everything fits perfectly. The things you are saying do not fit. Don't believe it? What are you going to do with those 4 comings of Jesus?...............Really 5.

What is happening here is you imagine a coming when there is none. Revelation shows ONE COMING: Period. (1) It is in Revelation 19.

There will be another, but John did not see it so did not write it: it will be Paul's pretrib rapture that will come a moment before the 6th seal.

The TRUTH: Satan's wrath begins when He is cast down, at the midpoint, which is at the 7th trumpet. The problem with your theory is, God's wrath is concurrent with Satan's wrath: It is still happening since it started with the earthquake at the 6th seal and continues on through the trumpet judgments and vial judgments.
Let's take the moment of the first vial poured out: It is filled with God's wrath, John tells us as much. But at the same time, Satan's wrath is in the murders or beheadings of those who refuse to worship the image or take the mark. So at this moment in time, we see BOTH Satan's wrath (in the beheadings) and God's wrath as He pours out the vials- which will shorten those days of GT.

This is another way of showing your theory of where the tribulation is, is bogus.

DaDad · Sep 25, 2018

claninja said:
I don't think so? It literally states a word was revealed to Daniel IN THE 3RD YEAR OF CYRUS KING OF PERSIA, no?

Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a word was revealed to Daniel
...

Your citations resolve the circumstance. But do you believe Scripture?

Thanks,
DaDad

DaDad · Sep 25, 2018

iamlamad said:
Of course this is myth: 99.99999% of the church know the entire 70th week is FUTURE.

Hmmmmm, only 0.00001% of the church agree with Scripture and History? That's pretty sad.

Thanks,
DaDad

claninja · Sep 25, 2018

iamlamad said:
You are mistaken on one point.

Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

This is why the woman BEGAN to flee: she was following Jesus' command.
Of course she does not flee twice: the time, times and half of time is just another way of saying 1260 days. John covers this time in days, months and years, so we can get it. Good job!

In the midst of the week, Christ takes away the first (sacrifice and offering)
Daniel 9:27 and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and offering shall be taken away
Hebrews 10:8-10 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He takes away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Satan is cast out when Jesus is lifted up:
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself

The 3.5 years of revelation 12 is gospel going exclusively to Israel, right after Jesus ascends.

After this 3.5 years, the gospel goes to the gentiles and Satan goes off to make war with the woman's offspring offspring.

iamlamad said:
Of course this is myth: 99.99999% of the church know the entire 70th week is FUTURE.

Is this a true statistic or an exaggeration? The only ones that I have ran into that believe the 70th week is still future are "dispensationalists" or those with similar beliefs. And they by no means make up 99.99999% of the church.

claninja · Sep 25, 2018

DaDad said:
Your citations resolve the circumstance. But do you believe Scripture?

I do, do you? you seem to be avoiding the original question I asked you.

Daniel 10 states there would be 4 more kings of persia until Greece showed up on the scene as a world power, however, you posted more than 4 kings of Persia leading up to Greece. So how do you reconcile the discrepancy of Biblical prophecy with the secular timeline you posted?

DaDad · Sep 25, 2018

claninja said:
I do, do you?

Daniel DIED in the First year of KING Cyrus:

Daniel 1:21 And Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.

Cyrus was ONLY king over the PERSIANS:

Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia

BOTH are PERFECTLY CORRECT. And History AGREES.

Thanks,
DaDad

Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

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