Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[jerry kelso]

So you insist that when the Disciples asked "when will THESE THINGS BE" that "THESE THINGS" does not include the temple coming down?

Really?

When Jesus said "The temple is coming down" and the disciples then asked him "WHEN LORD"? It should be clear to anyone with a modicum of understanding, and anyone without a previously held Bias to uphold, that their question, and His answer, was about WHEN the temple would be dismantled.

Luke 21 Clearly attests to that fact, warning them that "When you see Jerusalem encompassed by armies, know that it's desolation is near and FLEE!"

Only those with a previously held bias against this would try to twist the scriptures into something else.

parousia70,

1. Luke 21:5-19; Verse 6 answers about the beauty of the temple of verse 5 and Jesus prophecies the destruction of Jerusalem.

2. Verse 7; the disciples ask when these things shall be and the 2nd is when these things shall come to pass.
Verses 8-9 is about the end of the world which was not 70 A.D. Verses 10-11 is still future for nation wasn't rising against nation for there were people in the world that didn't know what was happening in Rome or Jerusalem. 70 A.D. was about Jerusalem being invaded by Rome's kingdom. Rome wasn't fighting other nations. This is an end of the world scenario with the world populated.

3. Verses 12-19 talks about the disciples persecution and becoming martyrs.

4. Verses 20-24. Verse 20 happened at 70 A.D. and will happen in the future for both will have armies surround them.

5. Verse 21; I don't recall a verse of warning for the jews to flee from the onslaught of the Romans in 70 A.D. even though we can assume this fact. If there is feel free to show me the scripture. Fleeing into Judaea is in the future tribulation for it is a purging of Israel known as the time of Jacob's trouble that Daniel 12 talks about a time like there never was before and at that time shall God's people be delivered. 70 A.D. was not a purging but punishment for rejecting Christ and being out of covenant with him.

6. So verse 22 the days of vengeance is usually associated with the Day of the Lord even though you could say that it was vengeance. However, the kingdom message wasn't being preached as far as Israel taking their place at the head of the nations. Isaiah 2:2-4. Paul was into preaching the message of the mystery of the church and salvation and Israel was backslidden as a nation and now the saved jews were a part of the jews so they wouldn't be preaching the Kingdom is coming and Christ is going to overthrow you in 70 A.D.

7. Verse 23 can be said of both 70 A.D. and verse 24 is about 70 A.D. for they were led away to other nations and they were trodden down and Jesus mentioned in the Sermon on the Mount if the salt has lost its savor it is no good but to be trodden down under the feet of men. This will happen in the tribulation in the time of Jacob's trouble also and this is why Israel will realize that they have to call upon the one whom they pierced. In Revelation 12 Israel will go into the wilderness and be preserved and the remnant will be scattered and Zechariah says 2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 will remain to go through the fire. These prove that this will happen in the future. Verses 25-27 can be said of 70 A.D. but it will happen in the future tribulation.

8. Verse 27 says; And then they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. This didn't happen in 70 A.D. In the Day of the Lord this will happen for Christ prophesied it in Acts 1 and Revelation 1 says they will look upon him whom they have pierced. This is reality and not a spiritual coming.
History repeats itself so while there are similar things happening in both ages the context overall is still the end of the world which is a definite age of when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. In verse 24 they were scattered in 70 A.D. and will be until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled. That will not happen until the Day of the Lord. Some say that is not true because Israel became a nation in 1948 so this proves that their nation will be trodden down under the foot of men (Revelation 11:1-2).

9. The point is still leading to the second advent of the personal coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. You are wrong again because you don't understand the context. Jerry kelso

 

[parousia70]

parousia70, You are wrong again because you don't understand the context.

Jerry, It seems to me you are the one jumping all over the map, instead of honoring the context that Jesus establishes in the opening of the Chapter, which is the destruction of the temple.

1. Luke 21:5-19; Verse 6 answers about the beauty of the temple of verse 5 and Jesus prophecies the destruction of Jerusalem.

Which we both agree happened in 70AD.

2. Verse 7; the disciples ask when these things shall be and the 2nd is when these things shall come to pass.

Yes, Jesus tells them that Jerusalem and the temple would be destroyed, and the disciples asked him "WHEN".
So far so good...

Verses 8-9 is about the end of the world which was not 70 A.D.

Context Jerry, Context!
Remember the Context of the entire discourse is Jerusalem and the temple's destruction.
You need it to Jump thousands of years from one verse to the next, then back thousands of years again in the next verse, but the context won't allow it.

Verses 10-11 is still future for nation wasn't rising against nation for there were people in the world that didn't know what was happening in Rome or Jerusalem. 70 A.D. was about Jerusalem being invaded by Rome's kingdom. Rome wasn't fighting other nations.

Demonstrably untrue.
This prophecy had special significance during that period of the great Pax Romana ("Roman Peace"), when the outbreak of these wars transpired: Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia; at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD (one violently put down by Cuspius Fadus); the Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death; Claudius declares martial law in Palestine after the Jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I; the Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign; a smoldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. As these conflagrations escalated, Rome started its own civil wars in 68-70 that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus writes, "Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." For more on wars of this time, see: Josephus: Antiquities, 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars, 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2.

3. Verses 12-19 talks about the disciples persecution and becoming martyrs.

there you go jumping back again...CONTEXT Jerry!

Verses 20-24. Verse 20 happened at 70 A.D. and will happen in the future for both will have armies surround them.

How many times do you believe scripture teaches this verse will be fulfilled? 2? 5? 10? 100?

I say 1 and done. Where you get multiple fulfillments is not from any scripture I can see, but feel free to show me the scripture that teaches multiple fulfillments of this passage if i've missed it. seems to me you must imply it based solely on your previously held futurist bias, and not on any direct scriptural teaching.

5. Verse 21; I don't recall a verse of warning for the jews to flee from the onslaught of the Romans in 70 A.D. even though we can assume this fact. If there is feel free to show me the scripture.

Count on it!

Luke 21:20-21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry, It seems to me you are the one jumping all over the map, instead of honoring the context that Jesus establishes in the opening of the Chapter, which is the destruction of the temple.


Which we both agree happened in 70AD.


Yes, Jesus tells them that Jerusalem and the temple would be destroyed, and the disciples asked him "WHEN".
So far so good...



Context Jerry, Context!
Remember the Context of the entire discourse is Jerusalem and the temple's destruction.
You need it to Jump thousands of years from one verse to the next, then back thousands of years again in the next verse, but the context won't allow it.



Demonstrably untrue.
This prophecy had special significance during that period of the great Pax Romana ("Roman Peace"), when the outbreak of these wars transpired: Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia; at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD (one violently put down by Cuspius Fadus); the Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death; Claudius declares martial law in Palestine after the Jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I; the Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign; a smoldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. As these conflagrations escalated, Rome started its own civil wars in 68-70 that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus writes, "Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." For more on wars of this time, see: Josephus: Antiquities, 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars, 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2.



there you go jumping back again...CONTEXT Jerry!



How many times do you believe scripture teaches this verse will be fulfilled? 2? 5? 10? 100?

I say 1 and done. Where you get multiple fulfillments is not from any scripture I can see, but feel free to show me the scripture that teaches multiple fulfillments of this passage if i've missed it. seems to me you must imply it based solely on your previously held futurist bias, and not on any direct scriptural teaching.



Count on it!

Luke 21:20-21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

ladodger,

1. Luke 17:20-37; And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here or lo there for behold the kingdom of God is within you. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see on the of the days of the Son of man and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, see here or see there go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

2. The first kingdom of the God without observation is the spiritual rule in man's heart in response to the question of the pharisees of the physical kingdom of God. Christ answer about the physical kingdom was about the second coming in the future at the end of the world and not 70 A.D.
Luke 19:41-44; And when he was come near, he beheld the city and wept over it, Saying, if thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. Fo the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round and keep thee in on every side. And shall lay thee even with the ground and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

3. This is about 70 A.D. and that war killed those jews and their children and leveled the temple because they didn't know it was going to happen. This doesn't gel with them having a warning and that they should flee. I almost believe that Jesus wasn't answering their question of A.D. 70 as much as he was really talking about his coming and the signs of his coming for after these things the end won't be by and by.

4. In verse 24; And they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led away captive into all nation and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the gentiles, until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled. This sounds like 70 A.D. but it will be happen in the last days as well for the outer court will be given to the gentiles in Revelation 11:2 and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

5. 70 A.D. is similar but it was a surprise of killing the jews and their children and laying the temple flat. In the tribulation and the Abomination of Desolation as in Daniel will have the jews fleeing into judea etc.
Luke 21 is still ending up to lead up to the Son of Man coming is a cloud with power and great glory. This didn't happen in 70 A.D. Also, in 70 A.D. the church was in operation and not the nation of Israel. Israel was not being purged for their sins. They were being punished according to the law and the prophecy of Jesus Matthew 23:37-39. It was not about the end of the nation forever or their callings and covenant. Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 are still future and will happen accordingly to Isaiah 66:6-7 and will fulfill Matthew 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21.

6. The second coming of Christ is the context of Luke 21 in the overall context no matter if you want to parallel or compare similar circumstances. It cannot be totally be about the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 from Luke 1:28 because the coming of the son of man did not come back in 70 A.D. Also, the purging of Israel will bring about the jews as a nation born in one day (Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 13:9; and Isaiah 66:7-8). Jerry Kelso

 

[parousia70]

ladodger,

Ok, I'll byte... whats up with the name calling? Does it help you feel superior somehow?
Perhaps you should stick to arguing your position. If it's indeed superior to mine, it should stand up on its own without the need to stoop to such petty tactics.

3. This is about 70 A.D. and that war killed those jews and their children and leveled the temple because they didn't know it was going to happen. This doesn't gel with them having a warning and that they should flee.

You are going to have to do a whole lot better than that to convince anyone here that the Disciples didn't take Jesus seriously when He said "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...THEN it's time to flee"

History records they in fact did flee to Pella when Cestius Gallus, without reason, suspended the siege of the city and retreated.

4. In verse 24; And they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led away captive into all nation and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the gentiles, until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled. This sounds like 70 A.D. but it will be happen in the last days as well for the outer court will be given to the gentiles in Revelation 11:2 and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Again with the claims of "Double Fulfillment"... and again I'll ask, where does scripture teach this? and why only double? why not triple, quadruple? 10 times over?

5. 70 A.D. is similar but it was a surprise of killing the jews and their children and laying the temple flat.

Hardly a Surprise.... it lasted 42 months as prophesied... and while the armies surrounded Jerusalem , the warring factions of Jews inside did most of the destruction themselves... by the time the armies breached the walls several years into the siege, it was merely a cleanup operation.

6. The second coming of Christ is the context of Luke 21 in the overall context no matter if you want to parallel or compare similar circumstances. It cannot be totally be about the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 from Luke 1:28 because the coming of the son of man did not come back in 70 A.D. Also, the purging of Israel will bring about the jews as a nation born in one day (Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 13:9; and Isaiah 66:7-8). Jerry Kelso

Rather, According to Jesus, AD 70 was indeed "The coming of the Lord of the Vineyard to destroy those wicked men" It was the coming of "the Chief Cornerstone that crushed them to powder" (Matt 21:33-45)

You can argue with Jesus about that if you must, but my money is on Him being right, and you being wrong.

 

[jerry kelso]

Ok, I'll byte... whats up with the name calling? Does it help you feel superior somehow?
Perhaps you should stick to arguing your position. If it's indeed superior to mine, it should stand up on its own without the need to stoop to such petty tactics.


You are going to have to do a whole lot better than that to convince anyone here that the Disciples didn't take Jesus seriously when He said "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...THEN it's time to flee"

History records they in fact did flee to Pella when Cestius Gallus, without reason, suspended the siege of the city and retreated.



Again with the claims of "Double Fulfillment"... and again I'll ask, where does scripture teach this? and why only double? why not triple, quadruple? 10 times over?


Hardly a Surprise.... it lasted 42 months as prophesied... and while the armies surrounded Jerusalem , the warring factions of Jews inside did most of the destruction themselves... by the time the armies breached the walls several years into the siege, it was merely a cleanup operation.



Rather, According to Jesus, AD 70 was indeed "The coming of the Lord of the Vineyard to destroy those wicked men" It was the coming of "the Chief Cornerstone that crushed them to powder" (Matt 21:33-45)

You can argue with Jesus about that if you must, but my money is on Him being right, and you being wrong.

parousia 70,

1. I was posting to la dodger and must have accidentally put it on your post being in a hurry. I just posted you about Luke 17:20-37; 19:41-44; 21:8 and others. I never called you a name or made any kind of comment towards you.

2. You are the only way being sarcastic.

3. Your view is all about 70 A.D. I understand that those who went to Pella were said to be all christians and not the jewish people. The disciples were martyred for Christ so they didn't flee. More than 600,000 jewish people were in Jerusalem at the passover when the Romans set fire to Jerusalem. They were't fleeing.

4. Ecclesiastes 1:9; The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the son. History repeats itself. Antiochus Epiphanes desolated the temple before Christ. It may have happened after that. In A.D. 70 there is no record this happened in the same manner of defiling the sanctuary but it was destroyed. In 1 Thessalonians 2 the AoD as Daniel spoke of that was like Antiochus in his day will happen again and the man of sin will stand up and declare he is God. There is no account of this.

5. Luke 21:24: And they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled. Even though there was a Jewish diaspora and some captive into some nations. However, Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled.

6. This part is better suited in the last days scenario than 70 A.D. The reason being is that the gentiles have not been fulfilled and Israel has been a nation since 1948. So physically they are not trodden down by the gentiles. Now the last several years them and the palestinians have been into it but Israel won in the 1967 war and they have much more power than they. Jerusalem belongs to Israel. The temple mount is worshipped by Christians Muslims. and Jews and it is not in shams.


7. The jews of 70 A.D. and the city were trodden down and killed in the city and led away and have been trodden down but only till 1948 and they came back. Spiritually, they are still out of covenant with God. In the tribulation the temple will be desecrated as the AOD and history will repeat itself and lead to the coming of the son of man for the jews will see him coming the one whom they had pierced. This is the point that Luke 21, Mark 13 and Matthew 24 leads to is the coming of the son of man. This did not literally happen in 70 A.D.
8. The Lord of the Vineyard coming used the Romans to overthrow and destroyed Jerusalem. This has nothing to do with the son of man coming in the clouds. The Lord of the Vineyard is the father for the son was killed. The son comes in the clouds in Luke 21. Two different things. Context and proper hermeneutics. You are not using them. Jerry kelso

 

[ScottA]

parousia 70,

1. I was posting to la dodger and must have accidentally put it on your post being in a hurry. I just posted you about Luke 17:20-37; 19:41-44; 21:8 and others. I never called you a name or made any kind of comment towards you.

2. You are the only way being sarcastic.

3. Your view is all about 70 A.D. I understand that those who went to Pella were said to be all christians and not the jewish people. The disciples were martyred for Christ so they didn't flee. More than 600,000 jewish people were in Jerusalem at the passover when the Romans set fire to Jerusalem. They were't fleeing.

4. Ecclesiastes 1:9; The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the son. History repeats itself. Antiochus Epiphanes desolated the temple before Christ. It may have happened after that. In A.D. 70 there is no record this happened in the same manner of defiling the sanctuary but it was destroyed. In 1 Thessalonians 2 the AoD as Daniel spoke of that was like Antiochus in his day will happen again and the man of sin will stand up and declare he is God. There is no account of this.

5. Luke 21:24: And they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled. Even though there was a Jewish diaspora and some captive into some nations. However, Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled.

6. This part is better suited in the last days scenario than 70 A.D. The reason being is that the gentiles have not been fulfilled and Israel has been a nation since 1948. So physically they are not trodden down by the gentiles. Now the last several years them and the palestinians have been into it but Israel won in the 1967 war and they have much more power than they. Jerusalem belongs to Israel. The temple mount is worshipped by Christians Muslims. and Jews and it is not in shams.


7. The jews of 70 A.D. and the city were trodden down and killed in the city and led away and have been trodden down but only till 1948 and they came back. Spiritually, they are still out of covenant with God. In the tribulation the temple will be desecrated as the AOD and history will repeat itself and lead to the coming of the son of man for the jews will see him coming the one whom they had pierced. This is the point that Luke 21, Mark 13 and Matthew 24 leads to is the coming of the son of man. This did not literally happen in 70 A.D.
8. The Lord of the Vineyard coming used the Romans to overthrow and destroyed Jerusalem. This has nothing to do with the son of man coming in the clouds. The Lord of the Vineyard is the father for the son was killed. The son comes in the clouds in Luke 21. Two different things. Context and proper hermeneutics. You are not using them. Jerry kelso

The irony...that you would push off to the future what Christ said was finished, only to claim that history repeats itself, after even quoting the verse that states that it is all hidden from your eyes. Luke 19:41-44

 

[jerry kelso]

The irony...that you would push off to the future what Christ said was finished, only to claim that history repeats itself, after even quoting the verse that states that it is all hidden from your eyes. Luke 19:41-44

scotta,
The irony is that no where in that scripture did Christ say it was finished. The things of their covenant is what belonged to their peace and what was hid from their eyes. The destruction of the temple did happen in 70 A.D. The covenant of Abraham and David are eternal covenants and conditioned by obedience. This is why Paul said God had not forgotten them and God would fulfill their covenants when they would become obedient.
70 A.D. was going to happen because Jesus prophesied it because the nation rejected the kingdom. During this time the church came into existence and Jesus told them that the kingdom was not for them to know the time etc.
After Peter's vision of the clean and the unclean showed even more that the kingdom was not in anywhere in this time of frame. Then Paul left the jews in Acts 28 because they would not listen to the truth and he started his ministry to the gentiles. Paul had been given the truth about the difference of law and grace and the church with both jew and gentile in one body and yet understood the covenants and gifts and callings of the nation of Israel God had not forgotten and the church was to make them jealous. This is still happening today and in the tribulation it will still happen with whatever saints are in that generation of time.
You have no scripture to prove your point or to debunk the ones I gave.
Do you believe in a future kingdom of peace that the church will rule and reign in with Israel at the head of the nations. If you don't believe this then answer to 2 Timothy 2:12; If ye suffer ye shall reign and Isaiah 2:2-4 Israel at the head of the nation and the law going forth out to the whole world from Zion. Jerry kelso

 

[parousia70]

parousia 70,

1. I was posting to la dodger and must have accidentally put it on your post being in a hurry. I just posted you about Luke 17:20-37; 19:41-44; 21:8 and others. I never called you a name or made any kind of comment towards you.

You were quoting a post of mine and responding to it. Never heard of ladoger. certainly no one with that moniker has posted anything in this thread. maybe you should slow down and think about who you are responding to.

2. You are the only way being sarcastic.

Examples?

3. Your view is all about 70 A.D. I understand that those who went to Pella were said to be all christians and not the jewish people. The disciples were martyred for Christ so they didn't flee. More than 600,000 jewish people were in Jerusalem at the passover when the Romans set fire to Jerusalem. They were't fleeing.

Jewish Christians fled, the rest of the Jews were slaughtered.

4. Ecclesiastes 1:9; The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the son. History repeats itself. Antiochus Epiphanes desolated the temple before Christ. It may have happened after that. In A.D. 70 there is no record this happened in the same manner of defiling the sanctuary but it was destroyed. In 1 Thessalonians 2 the AoD as Daniel spoke of that was like Antiochus in his day will happen again and the man of sin will stand up and declare he is God. There is no account of this.

1) and why not again and again and again and again?
2) Any future 21st century Jewish temple will not and can not be "the temple of God" that Paul cited. (unless you don't take "The Temple of God" literally?)

5. Luke 21:24: And they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled. Even though there was a Jewish diaspora and some captive into some nations. However, Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled.

The time of the Gentiles = 42 months:

COMPARE THIS:
Luke 21:24: And they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled.

TO THIS:
Rev 11:2: But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

6. This part is better suited in the last days scenario than 70 A.D. The reason being is that the gentiles have not been fulfilled and Israel has been a nation since 1948. So physically they are not trodden down by the gentiles. Now the last several years them and the palestinians have been into it but Israel won in the 1967 war and they have much more power than they. Jerusalem belongs to Israel. The temple mount is worshipped by Christians Muslims. and Jews and it is not in shams.

Not one single Modern Day Israeli Citizen can trace his or her lineage to any pre desolation Hebrew Person. Not even one.
Today's Israel is a multi ethnic secular democracy and has ZERO relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy, not religiously, not politically, not genetically.

7. The jews of 70 A.D. and the city were trodden down and killed in the city and led away and have been trodden down but only till 1948 and they came back.

THEY came back?
Again, not even one present day Israeli Citizen can trace his or her lineage back to any pre desolation Hebrew person. "They" are in fact not "Them".

Spiritually, they are still out of covenant with God. In the tribulation the temple will be desecrated as the AOD and history will repeat itself

How many times will it repeat? 10? 100? 1000?

8. The Lord of the Vineyard coming used the Romans to overthrow and destroyed Jerusalem. This has nothing to do with the son of man coming in the clouds. The Lord of the Vineyard is the father for the son was killed. The son comes in the clouds in Luke 21. Two different things. Context and proper hermeneutics. You are not using them. Jerry kelso

Hermeneutics indeed.
Always in scripture is the phrase "coming on the clouds" and it's similes used to convey Real judgments against nations by the hand of Human Armies as God's agents of Judgement. Every time. AD70 was no different.
Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone who came on the clouds crushed them to powder, on time, as promised.

 

[BABerean2]

Those who believe in a future earthly reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual Kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical Kingdom.
googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1445020441508-1'); });
The truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity. We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives, for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now, whether we choose to recognize it or not.

Anthony Hoekema: Amillennial Eschatology

http://www.the-highway.com/amilc_Hoekema.html

 

[BABerean2]

The irony is that no where in that scripture did Christ say it was finished. The things of their covenant is what belonged to their peace and what was hid from their eyes. The destruction of the temple did happen in 70 A.D. The covenant of Abraham and David are eternal covenants and conditioned by obedience. This is why Paul said God had not forgotten them and God would fulfill their covenants when they would become obedient.

Christ is now the mediator of a better covenant, with better promises, made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
It was first made with Israelites like the Apostle Paul and the Gentiles were grafted into the Olive Tree later, based on Romans chapter 11.



Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
(The Abrahamic Promise was made to only One Seed, which is Christ.)

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(The Sinai covenant was added 430 years after the Abrahamic Promise.)

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(Inheritance comes through the Promise to Abraham, not the law.)

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(The law was added because of transgressions, until the Seed could come.)

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(The law reveals our sin, until we come to faith in Christ.)

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(We are Abraham's Seed, and heirs to the Promise, through Christ.)
........................................................


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.


Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The New Blood Covenant of Christ is the only way of Salvation.


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NKJV)

 

[jerry kelso]

You were quoting a post of mine and responding to it. Never heard of ladoger. certainly no one with that moniker has posted anything in this thread. maybe you should slow down and think about who you are responding to.


Examples?


Jewish Christians fled, the rest of the Jews were slaughtered.


1) and why not again and again and again and again?
2) Any future 21st century Jewish temple will not and can not be "the temple of God" that Paul cited. (unless you don't take "The Temple of God" literally?)


The time of the Gentiles = 42 months:

COMPARE THIS:
Luke 21:24: And they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled.

TO THIS:
Rev 11:2: But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.


Not one single Modern Day Israeli Citizen can trace his or her lineage to any pre desolation Hebrew Person. Not even one.
Today's Israel is a multi ethnic secular democracy and has ZERO relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy, not religiously, not politically, not genetically.


THEY came back?
Again, not even one present day Israeli Citizen can trace his or her lineage back to any pre desolation Hebrew person. "They" are in fact not "Them".



How many times will it repeat? 10? 100? 1000?



Hermeneutics indeed.
Always in scripture is the phrase "coming on the clouds" and it's similes used to convey Real judgments against nations by the hand of Human Armies as God's agents of Judgement. Every time. AD70 was no different.
Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone who came on the clouds crushed them to powder, on time, as promised.

parousia,

1. I was posting ladodger on law and grace. I am not name calling and I have already explained that in the last post and you thought I was lying of which I understand because he is not on this post. Accidents happen when you get posting a lot at one time and I had just gotten home from work so I was probably a little tired. I apologize.

2. Post #76; again for your education and the last post you said I was name calling and said, does it make you feel superior. You were wrong on that and that is fine I understand why you said it even though it was sarcastic. Either way it didn't bother me. I want people to be fair in exegesis.

3. I agreed with some fled and the rest got slaughtered. The christians were told to go to pella. As far as fleeing into Judaea maybe but that is more to the future tribulation in Matthew 24. Either way any similarities in the destruction of Jerusalem doesn't mean the same event alone is in this passage. Jerusalem was surrounded the first time and plummeted and the second time only the outer court will be held by the gentiles. This could be possible both events.

4. The literal temple of God will be built according to Ezekiel 40-48. Revelation 11:1 the angel gave John a reed like unto a rod: saying; Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar, and them that worship therein. This never happened in the days of the 60's or 70's A.D. The temple had been around before Jesus days. This reed like a rod is for judgement and Revelation 11 is in the middle of the tribulation which means it will have 3.5 years to build in time for worship and the AoD to happen where the Antichrist will stand in the holy place declaring he is God.

5. The 2 Witnesses will provide the lineage of which Elijah is one according to Malachi 4 and Enoch will probably be the other. These two men are the only ones who have not died and even Enoch prophesied of the second coming in Jude.

6. According to scripture Israel's nations that has oppressed her are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. The Revised Rome will be the last before the Antichrist kingdom of which he will come up through the 10 horns (Revised Roman Empire) and pluck up 3 and then the 10 will give their power to him for they will all kill the religious harlot off which is the mystery babylon (Revelation17).

7. There is no coming in the clouds in the parable of the vineyard. The master destroyed them at 70 A.D. but there was no Christ coming in the clouds. That is improper hermeneutics of allegorical theory just so you can try to prove your point and you can't and that is why you have not consistency in your hermeneutics.

You are wrong as and as long as you keep using wrong hermeneutics you will always be wrong. Jerry kelso

 

[parousia70]

7. There is no coming in the clouds in the parable of the vineyard. The master destroyed them at 70 A.D. but there was no Christ coming in the clouds. That is improper hermeneutics of allegorical theory just so you can try to prove your point and you can't and that is why you have not consistency in your hermeneutics.

When the lord of the vineyard "COMES"...

What is improper hermeneutics is for you to completely ignore, or worse categorically deny, the precedent set in scripture for the use and understanding of God "Riding a Cloud" during his multiple Old Testament "comings" in judgement.

Here's some education:

The meaning of the CLOUDS has to do with the Jewish teaching that Jehovah alone was known to come with clouds. Note the charge of "blasphemy" when Jesus tells the high preist that he will see Jesus come with clouds:

Matthew 26:64-65
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you [Caiaphas], Hereafter shall ye [Caiaphas] see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

This was blasphemy because only Yahweh was said to come with the clouds during various OT judgments:

Behold, Yahweh rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[Yahweh] maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind (Ps 104:3)

The earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because [Yahweh] was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies. Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled. Yahweh thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice. And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them. And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of Yahweh, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.(2 Samuel 22:8-16)

So, we see that the Jews attributed cloud-comings to Yahweh. These were times of judgment from Yahweh. So, they leveled the charge of blasphemy against Jesus. At no time was a physical incarnation of Yahweh required for these "Cloud Comings" to have taken place, yet take place they did.

What we see in the Old Testament is that God's various comings with the clouds do not speak of cumulous weather clouds of our skies overhead. All throughout the O.T., clouds are used to indicate the glory of God when he is carrying out a divine plan or judgment:

Again:

Isaiah 19:1
The burden of Egypt: "Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt. The idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

2 Samuel 22:10-12
He bowed the heavens also, and came down With thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky.

Jeremiah 4:13-14
Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness , that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

Psalm 104:1,3
Yahweh, my God, you are very great...He makes the clouds his chariot. He walks on the wings of the wind.

Psalm 97:2
Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

So, the use of this clouds imagery does not mean the weather clouds of our skies overhead. In fact, Revelation 14:14-20 depicts Jesus in exactly this sense: the God who rides upon heavenly clouds and issues forth his judgments from the heavenly realm.

Your view wrongly asserts that Christ coming with the clouds means the cumulous clouds of our skies overhead. In contrast, Rev 14 supports my view, as do the many passages in the OT about Yahweh's coming with clouds:

Again:

"[Yahweh] was seen upon the wings of the wind. And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies" (2 Sam 22, when Yahweh came and put down Saul's Kingdom).

"Behold, [Yahweh] shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! ... O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness , that thou mayest be saved." (Jeremiah 4, when the prophet foretells the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem).

"Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt. The idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst" (Isaiah 19, when the prophet warns of Egypt's doom).

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

Christ's cloud Coming at AD70 was no different.

Until you cease to willfully ignore the set biblical precedent for the interpretation of Cloud Comings of God in favor of some 21st century Hollywood fantasy unrecognizable to Christ and the apostles, you will remain hopelessly wrong.

Time to bring your views in line with Jesus, the prophets and apostles and reject the unbiblical views of "Cloud Comings" that you currently hold.

 

[jerry kelso]

When the lord of the vineyard "COMES"...

What is improper hermeneutics is for you to completely ignore, or worse categorically deny, the precedent set in scripture for the use and understanding of God "Riding a Cloud" during his multiple Old Testament "comings" in judgement.

Here's some education:

The meaning of the CLOUDS has to do with the Jewish teaching that Jehovah alone was known to come with clouds. Note the charge of "blasphemy" when Jesus tells the high preist that he will see Jesus come with clouds:

Matthew 26:64-65
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you [Caiaphas], Hereafter shall ye [Caiaphas] see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

This was blasphemy because only Yahweh was said to come with the clouds during various OT judgments:

Behold, Yahweh rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[Yahweh] maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind (Ps 104:3)

The earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because [Yahweh] was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies. Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled. Yahweh thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice. And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them. And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of Yahweh, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.(2 Samuel 22:8-16)

So, we see that the Jews attributed cloud-comings to Yahweh. These were times of judgment from Yahweh. So, they leveled the charge of blasphemy against Jesus. At no time was a physical incarnation of Yahweh required for these "Cloud Comings" to have taken place, yet take place they did.

What we see in the Old Testament is that God's various comings with the clouds do not speak of cumulous weather clouds of our skies overhead. All throughout the O.T., clouds are used to indicate the glory of God when he is carrying out a divine plan or judgment:

Again:

Isaiah 19:1
The burden of Egypt: "Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt. The idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

2 Samuel 22:10-12
He bowed the heavens also, and came down With thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky.

Jeremiah 4:13-14
Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness , that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

Psalm 104:1,3
Yahweh, my God, you are very great...He makes the clouds his chariot. He walks on the wings of the wind.

Psalm 97:2
Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

So, the use of this clouds imagery does not mean the weather clouds of our skies overhead. In fact, Revelation 14:14-20 depicts Jesus in exactly this sense: the God who rides upon heavenly clouds and issues forth his judgments from the heavenly realm.

Your view wrongly asserts that Christ coming with the clouds means the cumulous clouds of our skies overhead. In contrast, Rev 14 supports my view, as do the many passages in the OT about Yahweh's coming with clouds:

Again:

"[Yahweh] was seen upon the wings of the wind. And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies" (2 Sam 22, when Yahweh came and put down Saul's Kingdom).

"Behold, [Yahweh] shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! ... O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness , that thou mayest be saved." (Jeremiah 4, when the prophet foretells the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem).

"Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt. The idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst" (Isaiah 19, when the prophet warns of Egypt's doom).

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

Christ's cloud Coming at AD70 was no different.

Until you cease to willfully ignore the set biblical precedent for the interpretation of Cloud Comings of God in favor of some 21st century Hollywood fantasy unrecognizable to Christ and the apostles, you will remain hopelessly wrong.

Time to bring your views in line with Jesus, the prophets and apostles and reject the unbiblical views of "Cloud Comings" that you currently hold.

ladodger,
I wasn't ignoring scriptures about clouds being used spiritually or physically or that God wasn't seen in some way.
The truth is that there is no clouds mentioned in the coming of the Lord of the vineyard.
Luke 21:27; And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. This is Christ coming back to settle the kingdom.
Christ said he was coming back the same way that he left in Acts 1. Luke leads to the second advent of the son of man coming in all his power and great glory. This doesn't fit 70 A.D. because all there was was destruction of the Roman army. God used the Romans not himself. It is not in the context.
Sorry, but you are wrong again. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Christ is now the mediator of a better covenant, with better promises, made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
It was first made with Israelites like the Apostle Paul and the Gentiles were grafted into the Olive Tree later, based on Romans chapter 11.



Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
(The Abrahamic Promise was made to only One Seed, which is Christ.)

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(The Sinai covenant was added 430 years after the Abrahamic Promise.)

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(Inheritance comes through the Promise to Abraham, not the law.)

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(The law was added because of transgressions, until the Seed could come.)

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(The law reveals our sin, until we come to faith in Christ.)

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(We are Abraham's Seed, and heirs to the Promise, through Christ.)
........................................................


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.


Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The New Blood Covenant of Christ is the only way of Salvation.


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NKJV)

baberean2,

1. The new covenant was not made with the house of Israel and Judah.

2. The early church was made up of jews from Jesus ministry and proselytes of Rome as well.

3. Jesus said to his disciples it was not for them to know about the times and seasons of the kingdom in Acts 1.

4. Peter got the vision of the clean and the unclean about 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost. In Acts 28 Paul left the jews and started ministering to the gentiles.

5.

6. The church started at Calvary when the veil was written and jew and gentile became one body in Christ.

7. The new covenant for Israel as in Jeremiah 31:31-32 will not happen until the tribulation which is for the purging of Israel and not the church. We are in training now, 2 Timothy 2:12. Zechariah 13:9 says 2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 left. The sun clothed woman who is Israel will be preserved in the wilderness. When Christ comes back Israel will be a nation born in one day when Zion travails and brings forth her children (Isaiah 66:6-7) Then will they look on him whom they had pierced (Revelation 1:7). This is when they will repent and Christ will have them at the head of the nations (Isaiah 2:2-4). Then Jeremiah 31:31-32 and Hebrews 8:7-13 will be fulfilled for Israel.

8. Paul knew the covenant had not been fulfilled for Israel but it would as soon as the time of the gentiles are fulfilled and that will not be till Christ takes the kingdoms of this world ( Revelation 11:15). Jerry Kelso

 

[parousia70]

ladodger,

There you go again......

Slow down and realize who you are responding to please.

I wasn't ignoring scriptures about clouds being used spiritually or physically or that God wasn't seen in some way.
The truth is that there is no clouds mentioned in the coming of the Lord of the vineyard.

The comings are synonymous.

Christ said he was coming back the same way that he left in Acts 1. Luke leads to the second advent of the son of man coming in all his power and great glory. This doesn't fit 70 A.D.

Yet you claim it fits "The same way He left"????
Really??

Did He leave in "all His power and great Glory"?
Did He leave "surrounded by an angelic army fighting"
Did he hand out Rewards and punishment "when he left?"
When He left "Only the apostles saw Him go"... do you actually contend His return be "in the same way"?

because all there was was destruction of the Roman army. God used the Romans not himself. It is not in the context.
Sorry, but you are wrong again. Jerry kelso

Comings of God in Judgement in Scripture are Heavenly depictions of Gods hand using Human armies as His agents...
The Judgement of Nations at the hand of Human Armies in scripture are always described by the prophets as "comings of God riding clouds, disolving heavens, laying bare the earth, shaking the foundations of the universe, destroying with His brightness" etc....
The AD 70 Coming of Christ in Judgement is no different. We have no biblical instruction to divorce the context and nature of the Coming of Christ from the context and nature of all previous comings of God in Judgement throughout History.

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. The new covenant was not made with the house of Israel and Judah.

2. The early church was made up of jews from Jesus ministry and proselytes of Rome as well.

3. Jesus said to his disciples it was not for them to know about the times and seasons of the kingdom in Acts 1.

4. Peter got the vision of the clean and the unclean about 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost. In Acts 28 Paul left the jews and started ministering to the gentiles.

5.

6. The church started at Calvary when the veil was written and jew and gentile became one body in Christ.

7. The new covenant for Israel as in Jeremiah 31:31-32 will not happen until the tribulation which is for the purging of Israel and not the church. We are in training now, 2 Timothy 2:12. Zechariah 13:9 says 2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 left. The sun clothed woman who is Israel will be preserved in the wilderness. When Christ comes back Israel will be a nation born in one day when Zion travails and brings forth her children (Isaiah 66:6-7) Then will they look on him whom they had pierced (Revelation 1:7). This is when they will repent and Christ will have them at the head of the nations (Isaiah 2:2-4). Then Jeremiah 31:31-32 and Hebrews 8:7-13 will be fulfilled for Israel.

8. Paul knew the covenant had not been fulfilled for Israel but it would as soon as the time of the gentiles are fulfilled and that will not be till Christ takes the kingdoms of this world ( Revelation 11:15). Jerry Kelso

Jerry,

You are denying what is plainly written in God's Word in order to make your manmade doctrine work.



Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(The New Covenant was first made with Israelites like the Apostle Paul.)

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Just like in the days of Elijah there were two groups of Israelites. There were those who rejected the will of God and the elect remnant, like Paul, who accepted Jesus as the Messiah.)


Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(Again, we have two groups of Israelites. The unfaithful branches were broken off, while the faithful remained in the Olive Tree. The wild Gentile branches were grafted in among the faithful Israelites.)

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. (Those who accept Christ will be grafted back into the Olive Tree.)

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(You are reading this as if all of the Israelites were partially blinded, instead of seeing that part of the Israelites were blinded and part were not blinded and accepted Christ. The last Gentile comes to faith in Christ on the day of His Second Coming.)

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(The Greek word for "so" is "houto" which is the manner of their salvation, not the timing of their salvation.)

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(This is the New Covenant found in Jer. chapter 31 and Hebrews chapter 8. It is now in effect. Jesus announced the New Blood Covenant at Matt. 26:28)

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(Here again, we have two groups of Israelites. "They" who are blinded to the truth and "they" the election who accept Jesus.)





Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
(Christ is now the mediator of the New Covenant. It is not waiting on a future fulfillment.)

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
(This text is in the future tense because it comes from Jeremiah chapter 31. See verse 8:6 above. The terms of this New Covenant were completed on the day of the Cross when He said... "It is finished.")

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(God does not consider them under the Old Covenant, because they broke it. The Old Covenant is done.)

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(In the New Covenant He puts His Spirit inside of us.)

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The Old Sinai covenant is obsolete, finished, gone, nada, no more.

God is not going back to an obsolete covenant, with an obsolete mediator.

Moses and Aaron are finished.

Christ is now our Lawgiver and our Priest in the New Blood Covenant.


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (NKJV)

There is no other way of Salvation.
.

 

[jerry kelso]

There you go again......

Slow down and realize who you are responding to please.


The comings are synonymous.



Yet you claim it fits "The same way He left"????
Really??

Did He leave in "all His power and great Glory"?
Did He leave "surrounded by an angelic army fighting"
Did he hand out Rewards and punishment "when he left?"
When He left "Only the apostles saw Him go"... do you actually contend His return be "in the same way"?



Comings of God in Judgement in Scripture are Heavenly depictions of Gods hand using Human armies as His agents...
The Judgement of Nations at the hand of Human Armies in scripture are always described by the prophets as "comings of God riding clouds, disolving heavens, laying bare the earth, shaking the foundations of the universe, destroying with His brightness" etc....
The AD 70 Coming of Christ in Judgement is no different. We have no biblical instruction to divorce the context and nature of the Coming of Christ from the context and nature of all previous comings of God in Judgement throughout History.

parousia70,
The comings are not synonymous.
He is coming back physically as he left physically. That was the point.
You are trying to make 70 A.D. a spiritual coming. 70 A.D. was the Lord of the vineyard killing the bad servants and the coming of the Lord is to set up the Kingdom.
Name your scriptures to prove you theory on judgement of Nations and how they fit all the comings the same. You will still be wrong. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

You are denying what is plainly written in God's Word in order to make your manmade doctrine work.



Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(The New Covenant was first made with Israelites like the Apostle Paul.)

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(Just like in the days of Elijah there were two groups of Israelites. There were those who rejected the will of God and the elect remnant, like Paul, who accepted Jesus as the Messiah.)


Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(Again, we have two groups of Israelites. The unfaithful branches were broken off, while the faithful remained in the Olive Tree. The wild Gentile branches were grafted in among the faithful Israelites.)

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. (Those who accept Christ will be grafted back into the Olive Tree.)

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(You are reading this as if all of the Israelites were partially blinded, instead of seeing that part of the Israelites were blinded and part were not blinded and accepted Christ. The last Gentile comes to faith in Christ on the day of His Second Coming.)

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(The Greek word for "so" is "houto" which is the manner of their salvation, not the timing of their salvation.)

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(This is the New Covenant found in Jer. chapter 31 and Hebrews chapter 8. It is now in effect. Jesus announced the New Blood Covenant at Matt. 26:28)

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(Here again, we have two groups of Israelites. "They" who are blinded to the truth and "they" the election who accept Jesus.)





Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
(Christ is now the mediator of the New Covenant. It is not waiting on a future fulfillment.)

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
(This text is in the future tense because it comes from Jeremiah chapter 31. See verse 8:6 above. The terms of this New Covenant were completed on the day of the Cross when He said... "It is finished.")

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(God does not consider them under the Old Covenant, because they broke it. The Old Covenant is done.)

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(In the New Covenant He puts His Spirit inside of us.)

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The Old Sinai covenant is obsolete, finished, gone, nada, no more.

God is not going back to an obsolete covenant, with an obsolete mediator.


Moses and Aaron are finished.

Christ is now our Lawgiver and our Priest in the New Blood Covenant.


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (NKJV)

There is no other way of Salvation.
.

baberean2,
I am telling the truth.

1. Romans 11:1 says nothing about the Jews given the new covenant first. For the most part they were jews but the nation of Israel had already rejected Jesus Matthew 23:37-39.

2. Jesus said, in Acts 1:6-7 when they asked about the kingdom being restored and Jesus said, it is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

3. The church era was the new testament church which has a heavenly calling. Israel's earthly calling was not going to happen until the time of the gentiles are finished. This will not happen until the tribulation and the Lord comes back and takes the kingdoms of the world over (Revelation11:15).

4. The new covenant is not waiting on future fulfillment for it happened at Calvary. Israel will not turn to God until the tribulation and then they will accept Christ who they rejected the first time and then they as the nation of Israel will accept the new covenant and and the Lord will put the laws in their mind and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people etc. This has not happened to Israel today for many are atheists.

5. You are misconstruing what I am saying.

6. Jeremiah 31 was the new covenant offer only to the jewish nation for he gentiles never had a covenant. It was not made with Israel. If it would have been the curse would have been lifted from creation and they would have had resurrected bodies and Christ would have come back and settled the kingdom of Heaven rule and reign with the saints. This did not happen.

7. I never said God is going back to an obsolete covenant. That is your wrong understanding of what will happen in the millennial kingdom when Israel has the sacrifices. The problem is the sacrifices are in connection with the feasts which are eternal and will be under the new covenant.
2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 will remain according to Zechariah 13:9. This will be the remnant. The remnant are seen in Revelation 12 being scattered from the woman which is the bulk of the nation that will be preserved in the wilderness.

8. The lost jewish nation are not under any covenant even though most believe they are under Moses law. 2 Corinthians 3:15; have the veil over their heart by the reading of the old testament.
The new covenant was made at Calvary for all men who he is willing that none should perish John 3:16. Jerry kelso ......................

 

[BABerean2]

The new covenant was made at Calvary for all men who he is willing that none should perish John 3:16. Jerry kelso ...................... googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1445020441508-1'); });

Jerry,

You just plainly stated the truth, in your own words above.

and then you turn around in other places and start hedging on what you said above.

"I am telling the truth.

1. Romans 11:1 says nothing about the Jews given the new covenant first. For the most part they were jews but the nation of Israel had already rejected Jesus Matthew 23:37-39."

If the Apostle Paul was not an Israelite who was a part of the New Covenant, then what was he?

If Romans chapter 11 is not about Israelites remaining in or broken off of the Olive Tree of the New Covenant, then what is it?

God never, ever, said that every Jew would come to faith in Christ. Only a remnant will be saved.
.

 

[ScottA]

The irony is that no where in that scripture did Christ say it was finished.

I rest my case.