Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[civilwarbuff]

God has made it clear He would not speak except in parables. It is all parables, every word.

And where exactly does He say that?

 

[ScottA]

scotta,
That is funny because Paul said the saints will judge the world and the angels as well in 1 Corinthians 6. In Revelation 20:4-6 John says the tribulations saints who got victory over the beast and the mark, etc. ruled and reigned for 1000 Years. Timothy 2:12 says to the church; if ye suffer ye shall reign.
You give no scripture so how do you think that you can even get to first base in proving your theory? Jerry kelso

Truth requires not proof, no quoting of scriptures. If one quotes who knows the truth, and one quotes who does not, the spirit has accomplished nothing. Better, as you have said, if we read. But better still, if we seek God for the truth. Study alone, also accomplishes nothing.

But, just so I do not leave you without an answer. All of what you describe/quote above, can be understood in Christ's words:

"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’" Matthew 25:34-40

 

[ScottA]

And where exactly does He say that?

And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

"31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, 32 which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”

33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.” Matthew 13

 

[jerry kelso]

Truth requires not proof, no quoting of scriptures. If one quotes who knows the truth, and one quotes who does not, the spirit has accomplished nothing. Better, as you have said, if we read. But better still, if we seek God for the truth. Study alone, also accomplishes nothing.

But, just so I do not leave you without an answer. All of what you describe/quote above, can be understood in Christ's words:

"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’" Matthew 25:34-40

scotta,

1. God's word is truth and he gave it to us for a reason and this is why he says study to show yourself approved, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed. At the same time I never said that study alone will divulge the truth. Those who have tunnel vision and do not understand proper hermeneutics can miss the truth no matter how much they study.

2. One can believe they know the truth and not quote any scriptures and not reveal truth. What one believes has to agree with the word.

3. You want to dismiss the plain multiple statements of truth and spiritualize them.

4. The passage you quoted is about the earthly kingdom. The king is Jesus Christ and the context is about the judgement of the nations where the sheep and the goats are separated. This is not talking about the church or the nation of Israel not judging the earth. The sheep will enter the kingdom and the goats will go away into everlasting punishment. Because you didn't understand the context is why you are wrong in your opinion of this summarizing 1 Corinthians 6 about the saints judging the world.

5. You are not using logic except of your own to try and prove your point and it don't work. Jerry kelso

 

[ScottA]

scotta,

1. God's word is truth and he gave it to us for a reason and this is why he says study to show yourself approved, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed. At the same time I never said that study alone will divulge the truth. Those who have tunnel vision and do not understand proper hermeneutics can miss the truth no matter how much they study.

2. One can believe they know the truth and not quote any scriptures and not reveal truth. What one believes has to agree with the word.

3. You want to dismiss the plain multiple statements of truth and spiritualize them.

4. The passage you quoted is about the earthly kingdom. The king is Jesus Christ and the context is about the judgement of the nations where the sheep and the goats are separated. This is not talking about the church or the nation of Israel not judging the earth. The sheep will enter the kingdom and the goats will go away into everlasting punishment. Because you didn't understand the context is why you are wrong in your opinion of this summarizing 1 Corinthians 6 about the saints judging the world.

5. You are not using logic except of your own to try and prove your point and it don't work. Jerry kelso

You are not so far off, but completely off on the timing. The sheep "will" was true then, but now they "have" and they "do", is correct.

And although I did not say to "spiritualize" (of which you wrongfully accuse me), I would spiritualize everything: God is spirit...and I follow Him.

But seeing you do not see, just as it is foretold. I leave you to it.

Please allow me to apologize and explain:

Many do come here for the loaves and fishes, and you do well to share your interpretation of the scriptures...it does serve a great purpose, for which I commend you. I apologize if I seem to suggest otherwise.

However, it should also be understood that [I believe] the original post was not directed to the real food of the gospel, but to the spiritual food...which makes your comments mostly off topic. For this very reason and for topics such as this, the phrase, "He who has an ear, let him hear." was born. Thus, the reference to parable language.

This all comes under what Jesus referred to as the many more things that many could not bear back then John 16:12. With your comments, this is obviously just as true now as it was then. Also, what Paul referred to when he wanted to "press on" even "leaving the elementary principles of Christ." Hebrews 6:1 Nevertheless, you have your work, and we have ours.

God bless you in a job well done.

 

[civilwarbuff]

As for the scriptures that seem to say different: God has made it clear He would not speak except in parables. It is all parables, every word.

Really?
Mat 4:17 From then on, Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, because the kingdom from heaven is near!"
Mat 5:1 When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on the hill. After taking his seat, his disciples came to him,
Mat 5:2 and he began to teach them, saying:
Mat 5:3 "How blessed are those who are destitute in spirit, because the kingdom from heaven belongs to them!
Mat 5:4 "How blessed are those who mourn, because it is they who will be comforted!
Mat 5:5 "How blessed are those who are humble, because it is they who will inherit the earth!
Mat 5:6 "How blessed are those who are hungry and thirsty for righteousness, because it is they who will be satisfied!
Mat 5:7 "How blessed are those who are merciful, because it is they who will receive mercy!
Mat 5:8 "How blessed are those who are pure in heart, because it is they who will see God!
Mat 5:9 "How blessed are those who make peace, because it is they who will be called God's children!
Mat 5:10 "How blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, because the kingdom from heaven belongs to them!
Mat 5:11 "How blessed are you whenever people insult you, persecute you, and say all sorts of evil things against you falsely because of me!
Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be extremely glad, because your reward in heaven is great! That's how they persecuted the prophets who came before you."
Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the world. But if the salt should lose its taste, how can it be made salty again? It's good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled on by people.
Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden.
Mat 5:15 People don't light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lamp stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
Mat 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before people in such a way that they will see your good actions and glorify your Father in heaven."
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,
Mat 5:18 because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.
Mat 5:19 So whoever sets aside one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom from heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom from heaven
Mat 5:20 because I tell you, unless your righteousness greatly exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom from heaven!"
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was told those who lived long ago, 'You must not murder,' and 'Whoever murders will be subject to punishment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you, anyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be subject to punishment. And whoever says to his brother 'Raka!' will be subject to the Council. And whoever says 'You fool!' will be subject to hell fire.
Mat 5:23 "So if you are presenting your gift at the altar and remember there that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and first go and be reconciled to your brother. Then come and offer your gift.
Mat 5:25 Come to terms quickly with your opponent while you are on the way to court, or your opponent may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
Mat 5:26 I tell you with certainty, you will not get out of there until you pay back the last dollar!"
Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You must not commit adultery.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you, anyone who stares at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29 So if your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your body parts than to have your whole body thrown into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you. It is better for you to lose one of your body parts than to have your whole body go into hell."
Mat 5:31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a written notice of divorce.'
Mat 5:32 But I say to you, any man who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
Mat 5:33 "Again, you have heard that it was told those who lived long ago, 'You must not swear an oath falsely,' but 'You must fulfill your oaths to the Lord.'
Mat 5:34 But I tell you not to swear at all, neither by heaven, because it is God's throne,
Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, because it is his footstool, nor by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the Great King.
Mat 5:36 Nor should you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 Instead, let your message be 'Yes' for 'Yes' and 'No' for 'No.' Anything more than that comes from the evil one."
Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.
Mat 5:40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat as well.
Mat 5:41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go two with him.
Mat 5:42 Give to the person who asks you for something, and do not turn away from the person who wants to borrow something from you."
Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor' and hate your enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 5:45 so that you will become children of your Father in heaven, because he makes his sun rise on both evil and good people, and he lets rain fall on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Mat 5:46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don't they?
Mat 5:47 And if you greet only your relatives, that's no great thing you're doing, is it? Even the gentiles do the same, don't they?
Mat 5:48 So be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Should I go on?

 

[ScottA]

Really?
Mat 4:17 From then on, Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, because the kingdom from heaven is near!"
Mat 5:1 When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on the hill. After taking his seat, his disciples came to him,
Mat 5:2 and he began to teach them, saying:
Mat 5:3 "How blessed are those who are destitute in spirit, because the kingdom from heaven belongs to them!
Mat 5:4 "How blessed are those who mourn, because it is they who will be comforted!
Mat 5:5 "How blessed are those who are humble, because it is they who will inherit the earth!
Mat 5:6 "How blessed are those who are hungry and thirsty for righteousness, because it is they who will be satisfied!
Mat 5:7 "How blessed are those who are merciful, because it is they who will receive mercy!
Mat 5:8 "How blessed are those who are pure in heart, because it is they who will see God!
Mat 5:9 "How blessed are those who make peace, because it is they who will be called God's children!
Mat 5:10 "How blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, because the kingdom from heaven belongs to them!
Mat 5:11 "How blessed are you whenever people insult you, persecute you, and say all sorts of evil things against you falsely because of me!
Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be extremely glad, because your reward in heaven is great! That's how they persecuted the prophets who came before you."
Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the world. But if the salt should lose its taste, how can it be made salty again? It's good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled on by people.
Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden.
Mat 5:15 People don't light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lamp stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
Mat 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before people in such a way that they will see your good actions and glorify your Father in heaven."
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,
Mat 5:18 because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.
Mat 5:19 So whoever sets aside one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom from heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom from heaven
Mat 5:20 because I tell you, unless your righteousness greatly exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom from heaven!"
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was told those who lived long ago, 'You must not murder,' and 'Whoever murders will be subject to punishment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you, anyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be subject to punishment. And whoever says to his brother 'Raka!' will be subject to the Council. And whoever says 'You fool!' will be subject to hell fire.
Mat 5:23 "So if you are presenting your gift at the altar and remember there that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and first go and be reconciled to your brother. Then come and offer your gift.
Mat 5:25 Come to terms quickly with your opponent while you are on the way to court, or your opponent may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
Mat 5:26 I tell you with certainty, you will not get out of there until you pay back the last dollar!"
Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You must not commit adultery.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you, anyone who stares at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29 So if your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your body parts than to have your whole body thrown into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you. It is better for you to lose one of your body parts than to have your whole body go into hell."
Mat 5:31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a written notice of divorce.'
Mat 5:32 But I say to you, any man who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
Mat 5:33 "Again, you have heard that it was told those who lived long ago, 'You must not swear an oath falsely,' but 'You must fulfill your oaths to the Lord.'
Mat 5:34 But I tell you not to swear at all, neither by heaven, because it is God's throne,
Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, because it is his footstool, nor by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the Great King.
Mat 5:36 Nor should you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 Instead, let your message be 'Yes' for 'Yes' and 'No' for 'No.' Anything more than that comes from the evil one."
Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.
Mat 5:40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat as well.
Mat 5:41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go two with him.
Mat 5:42 Give to the person who asks you for something, and do not turn away from the person who wants to borrow something from you."
Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor' and hate your enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 5:45 so that you will become children of your Father in heaven, because he makes his sun rise on both evil and good people, and he lets rain fall on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Mat 5:46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don't they?
Mat 5:47 And if you greet only your relatives, that's no great thing you're doing, is it? Even the gentiles do the same, don't they?
Mat 5:48 So be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Should I go on?

God said he would only speak in parables, confirmed by Christ. What's your point?

 

[civilwarbuff]

No, you said:

As for the scriptures that seem to say different: God has made it clear He would not speak except in parables. It is all parables, every word.

Then I quoted a portion on the Sermon on the Mount. No parables... (not the entire sermon, too long)
Then you said:

God said he would only speak in parables, confirmed by Christ. What's your point?

which is different from what you 1st posted. But still, no parables.

 

[ScottA]

No, you said:

Then I quoted a portion on the Sermon on the Mount. No parables... (not the entire sermon, too long)
Then you said:
which is different from what you 1st posted. But still, no parables.

No, no...those, the sermon on the mount, is all parables. Every word of God is a parable for the manifestation of things above. For, example: "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." The Son of God is God in the flesh...a manifest parable of God (who is spirit). Every physical thing has a spiritual counterpart, not just every word, but every thing as well. "The" Parables, are simply a token of the greater truth.

 

[civilwarbuff]

No, no...those are all parables. Every word of God is a parable for the manifestation of things above. For, example: "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." The Son of God is God in the flesh...a manifest parable of God (who is spirit). Every physical thing has a spiritual counterpart, not just every word, but every thing as well. "The" Parables, are simply a token of the greater truth.

So this:

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor' and hate your enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 5:45 so that you will become children of your Father in heaven, because he makes his sun rise on both evil and good people, and he lets rain fall on the righteous and the unrighteous.

really does not mean we should love our enemy? What, then does it mean?....just so I don't misunderstand where you are coming from....

 

[ScottA]

So this:
really does not mean we should love our enemy? What, then does it mean?....just so I don't misunderstand where you are coming from....

It means that all scripture has roots in the spiritual kingdom of God that are manifest here, some for a purpose here, and some not, some both.

As for loving our neighbor, Yes, it means exactly that. The spiritual implication (meaning) would be, that as we "be" and "do", our course of action in the world hopefully does not violate the love of God, but is in accordance with His greater plan of justice within the kingdom of heaven. Being of a fallen nature, we could not perceive the complete consequence of our actions (there), and are thus instructed accordingly.

 

[jerry kelso]

You are not so far off, but completely off on the timing. The sheep "will" was true then, but now they "have" and they "do", is correct.

And although I did not say to "spiritualize" (of which you wrongfully accuse me), I would spiritualize everything: God is spirit...and I follow Him.

But seeing you do not see, just as it is foretold. I leave you to it.

Please allow me to apologize and explain:

Many do come here for the loaves and fishes, and you do well to share your interpretation of the scriptures...it does serve a great purpose, for which I commend you. I apologize if I seem to suggest otherwise.

However, it should also be understood that [I believe] the original post was not directed to the real food of the gospel, but to the spiritual food...which makes your comments mostly off topic. For this very reason and for topics such as this, the phrase, "He who has an ear, let him hear." was born. Thus, the reference to parable language.

This all comes under what Jesus referred to as the many more things that many could not bear back then John 16:12. With your comments, this is obviously just as true now as it was then. Also, what Paul referred to when he wanted to "press on" even "leaving the elementary principles of Christ." Hebrews 6:1 Nevertheless, you have your work, and we have ours.

God bless you in a job well done.

scotta,

1. The original post was no mention of an earthly physical reign.
I have been talking about that which is in context and on topic.

2. This post is not about a spiritual context alone for an earthly reign such as the theory of Christ reigning now spiritually in the kingdom today and calling it the millennial kingdom.
It is plain that she called the post "no mention of a physical reign. The physical reign is based on spiritual authority of God.

3. Paul's context about Hebrews 6:1 deals with leaving things of the old covenant and going on to the new covenant. So I am sorry, but I am not off topic. We all have the same responsibility to rightly divide the word and understand how to reconcile them together to understand the plan of God. God bless! Jerry Kelso

 

[FollowerOfJesus]

I promise you that I have taken the entire Bible under consideration to draw my conclusion.

Really? Get a AV and try again

God bless you and keep you,
Ken

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thread moved from Formal Debate Proposals.

 

[Psalm3704]

Revelation 20:4 says,

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This passage says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem. Those that teach this are duty-bound to prove their doctrine with scripture.

Did you know that the phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, the doctrine is prevalent among so many denominations.

Where does this passage mention Christ's second coming?

Where does it mention a reign on earth?

Where does it mention Christ on earth?

Those who believe in a future earthly reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual Kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical Kingdom.

The truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity. We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives, for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now, whether we choose to recognize it or not.

All your answers are given in the old testament prophecies. The millennial temple (Ezekiel's Temple) is there. Christ reigns from the temple high above Jerusalem too. I'm too lazy to dig up some of those prophecies right now but if one wants to learn about prophecy, the place to go is the old testament. 1/4 of the entire bible is dedicated to prophecy, mostly about the second coming, found in the old testament. Compare that to the new testament, the book of Revelation contains only about 7 pages of prophecy on the tribulation and the millennial reign.







.

 

[ScottA]

3. Paul's context about Hebrews 6:1 deals with leaving things of the old covenant and going on to the new covenant.

Not so. Jesus had already given the New Covenant, and Paul clearly stated his intent on pressing on past those "elementary principals."

But...it is obvious that you are intent on explaining all things, even heavenly things, in earthly terms and earthly fulfillment. It is that impasse that makes you off topic...not that there isn't an earthly component, but that there is more importantly a heavenly [spiritual] component. The original post pits the earthly and heavenly [spiritual] understanding of the fulfillment of Christ's kingdom against one another...but you have only explained earthly things, pushing any spiritual [heavenly] fulfillment off into the future. He reigns [even now].

 

[redleghunter]

Revelation 20:4 says,

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This passage says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem. Those that teach this are duty-bound to prove their doctrine with scripture.

Did you know that the phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, the doctrine is prevalent among so many denominations.

Where does this passage mention Christ's second coming?

Where does it mention a reign on earth?

Where does it mention Christ on earth?

Those who believe in a future earthly reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual Kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical Kingdom.

The truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity. We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives, for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now, whether we choose to recognize it or not.

Well yes 1,000 years is mentioned several times in Revelation 20.

 

[jerry kelso]

Not so. Jesus had already given the New Covenant, and Paul clearly stated his intent on pressing on past those "elementary principals."

But...it is obvious that you are intent on explaining all things, even heavenly things, in earthly terms and earthly fulfillment. It is that impasse that makes you off topic...not that there isn't an earthly component, but that there is more importantly a heavenly [spiritual] component. The original post pits the earthly and heavenly [spiritual] understanding of the fulfillment of Christ's kingdom against one another...but you have only explained earthly things, pushing any spiritual [heavenly] fulfillment off into the future. He reigns [even now].

scotta,
Jesus had given the new covenant before the book of Hebrews was written and I didn't say any different.
He was writing to the jews and the elementary principals of what Jesus taught was the Mosaic law. This is a historical fact for he had to fulfill the law.
Christ does reign now in the hearts of men spiritually and I have never said otherwise.
The physical KoH is prophesied throughout the old testament and is tied into the restoration of all things. After Jesus told them that the kingdom being set up was only in the Father's knowledge Peter couldn't help but recognize the out pouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost which was a sign of Joel's prophecy. However, Joel's prophecy was not fulfilled because the creation still had the curse on it. Read the book of Joel.
The physical kingdom is what the jews were looking because they knew the prophecies but they missed the suffering savior (Isaiah 53) and did not repent. This was the condition for Jesus and John both said it; Repent for the KOH is at hand.
Jesus rules from heaven in our hearts now.
Kingdom of Heaven is baselia in Greek which means reign or rule from heaven. Jesus has all authority and power in heaven and earth and when the appointed time he will take back the physical kingdom and rule and reign with all the saints and Israel at the head of the nations where the law will go out of Zion (Isaiah 2:2-4) In the kingdom age Christ will rule with men on earth; in the hearts of the saved and on the earth.
You have no scripture proof for your position and that is why you give none except your opinion. Jerry Kelso

 

[ScottA]

scotta,
Jesus had given the new covenant before the book of Hebrews was written and I didn't say any different.
He was writing to the jews and the elementary principals of what Jesus taught was the Mosaic law. This is a historical fact for he had to fulfill the law.
Christ does reign now in the hearts of men spiritually and I have never said otherwise.
The physical KoH is prophesied throughout the old testament and is tied into the restoration of all things. After Jesus told them that the kingdom being set up was only in the Father's knowledge Peter couldn't help but recognize the out pouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost which was a sign of Joel's prophecy. However, Joel's prophecy was not fulfilled because the creation still had the curse on it. Read the book of Joel.
The physical kingdom is what the jews were looking because they knew the prophecies but they missed the suffering savior (Isaiah 53) and did not repent. This was the condition for Jesus and John both said it; Repent for the KOH is at hand.
Jesus rules from heaven in our hearts now.
Kingdom of Heaven is baselia in Greek which means reign or rule from heaven. Jesus has all authority and power in heaven and earth and when the appointed time he will take back the physical kingdom and rule and reign with all the saints and Israel at the head of the nations where the law will go out of Zion (Isaiah 2:2-4) In the kingdom age Christ will rule with men on earth; in the hearts of the saved and on the earth.
You have no scripture proof for your position and that is why you give none except your opinion. Jerry Kelso

Any scripture you choose for siting the "kingdom age" (of which I too could quote) refers to the reign of Christ here and now (ever since He entered into men, until the end). But these truths are discerned spiritually...leaving the carnal mind in blindness. Your interpretation is true in word, but not in spirit (not in spirit and in truth). And your argument is the same for all who do not see as it has been since Christ declared the timing would be "soon"...which you apparently disagree with, showing your interpretation to be a failure.

 

[jerry kelso]

Any scripture you choose for siting the "kingdom age" (of which I too could quote) refers to the reign of Christ here and now (ever since He entered into men, until the end). But these truths are discerned spiritually...leaving the carnal mind in blindness. Your interpretation is true in word, but not in spirit (not in spirit and in truth). And your argument is the same for all who do not see as it has been since Christ declared the timing would be "soon"...which you apparently disagree with, showing your interpretation to be a failure.

scotta,

1. We are in the church age and you can't show a scripture that shows we are in the KoH earthly reign with Christ on the throne on earth and Israel at the head of the nations and the law going out of Zion and where the wolf is laying down with the lamb and where the apostles are ruling over the tribes of Israel and where there is peace and we live in a theocracy today.

2. Christ reigning spiritually is in christian's hearts. Most christians live defeated and don't understand spiritual warfare to even think they are reigning anything because they are into struggling.

3. The physical earthly rule in the kingdom is a fact of scripture and it is spiritual in nature and it is not here yet.

4. You are trying to put everything in your one definition and context and that is not being fair to the scripture or proper hermeneutics. Jerry kelso