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Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

ScottA

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scotta,

1. We are in the church age and you can't show a scripture that shows we are in the KoH earthly reign with Christ on the throne on earth and Israel at the head of the nations and the law going out of Zion and where the wolf is laying down with the lamb and where the apostles are ruling over the tribes of Israel and where there is peace and we live in a theocracy today.

2. Christ reigning spiritually is in christian's hearts. Most christians live defeated and don't understand spiritual warfare to even think they are reigning anything because they are into struggling.

3. The physical earthly rule in the kingdom is a fact of scripture and it is spiritual in nature and it is not here yet.

4. You are trying to put everything in your one definition and context and that is not being fair to the scripture or proper hermeneutics. Jerry kelso
By that logic one would conclude that the cross was a failure rather than a victory. What I have described is the victory version of each of the scriptures that tell you that those things are not yet finished...but we know that "It is finished" because we worship in spirit and in truth John 4:23.

I indeed can show you the scriptures...but you have already denied them categorically. It is finished, and this you deny. So, unless you are willing to look again, to stay awake (Matthew 26:45) during these times...you remain, as many do, in slummer. These times are NOT the "church age", for there no such thing, and you believe the teachings of men who invented their own terms to explain what they did not understand....but rather these are the times of the gentiles. But this I say, not only for your benefit, but for those who came upon the original post and are worshiping in spirit, that they may know the truth.
 
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jerry kelso

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By that logic one would conclude that the cross was a failure rather than a victory. What I have described is the victory version of each of the scriptures that tell you that those things are not yet finished...but we know that "It is finished" because we worship in spirit and in truth John 4:23.

I indeed can show you the scriptures...but you have already denied them categorically. It is finished, and this you deny. So, unless you are willing to look again, to stay awake (Matthew 26:45) during these times...you remain, as many do, in slummer. These times are NOT the "church age", for there no such thing, and you believe the teachings of men who invented their own terms to explain what they did not understand....but rather these are the times of the gentiles. But this I say, not only for your benefit, but for those who came upon the original post and are worshiping in spirit, that they may know the truth.

scotta,
Nothing farther from the truth. There is no logic in what you say. Do you believe that the Lord is coming back to have an earth in total peace called the restitution of all things to bring the earth back into perfection as in the Adam and Eve and no sin and satan to tempt men. If you don't you don't believe the bible.
If you don't think this is the church age you are in denial of what began at the Day of Pentecost and the ministry of Paul and the book of Revelation of which shows the church age is still here.
You have not rebutted anything I said about the wolf laying down with the lamb and etc. being now because you can't and that is why the kingdom is not here as far as the millennial kingdom and the restitution of all things.
You may think you are in the spirit but you miss the truth of the word badly. You can show no scripture to prove your point or debunk what I have said. Now if you think you have scripture to prove the earthly kingdom of the restitution of the earth spiritually and physically in perfection and freedom from sin is now go ahead and try. You are denying this physical kingdom on earth. You are not reigning over anything because you are not through with your rulership training. 2 Timothy 2:12. Jerry kelso
 
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parousia70

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scotta,
Nothing farther from the truth. There is no logic in what you say. Do you believe that the Lord is coming back to have an earth in total peace called the restitution of all things to bring the earth back into perfection as in the Adam and Eve and no sin and satan to tempt men. If you don't you don't believe the bible.

Yet Adam and Eve DID have Satan in the "perfect garden" to tempt them to sin didn't they?

If you don't think this is the church age you are in denial of what began at the Day of Pentecost and the ministry of Paul and the book of Revelation of which shows the church age is still here.

If the Church age didn't begin until Pentecost, What age did the disciples ask Jesus about it's end in Matthew 24?

3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?"
 
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ScottA

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Nothing farther from the truth. There is no logic in what you say. Do you believe that the Lord is coming back to have an earth in total peace called the restitution of all things to bring the earth back into perfection as in the Adam and Eve and no sin and satan to tempt men. If you don't you don't believe the bible.
He already has: Matthew 17:11-12

If you don't think this is the church age you are in denial of what began at the Day of Pentecost and the ministry of Paul and the book of Revelation of which shows the church age is still here.
I do not deny what began at Pentecost.

You have not rebutted anything I said about the wolf laying down with the lamb and etc. being now because you can't and that is why the kingdom is not here as far as the millennial kingdom and the restitution of all things.
The wolf is laying down with the lamb [now]...in the kingdom...but NOT in this world, for this world is passing away. The restoration and restitution of all things is not of this world, but of the new heaven and new earth.
You may think you are in the spirit but you miss the truth of the word badly. You can show no scripture to prove your point or debunk what I have said. Now if you think you have scripture to prove the earthly kingdom of the restitution of the earth spiritually and physically in perfection and freedom from sin is now go ahead and try. You are denying this physical kingdom on earth. You are not reigning over anything because you are not through with your rulership training.
Looking for the restoration of this world that is passing away, is foolishness. You lay up treasures where your heart is. :(

I AM reigning NOW with Christ, who is CURRENTLY on the throne. Why you would deny His current reign, is statement enough. :(
 
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ScottA

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If you look at the current and future tense of Jesus' answer to this question...it would appear that the disciples of that time would live close to the end of the age and "then" the end would come. He goes on to say "then" you will be delivered up...meaning "then"...not at some distant future end time event as many believe...but "then." That is what He said.

In other words, "then" was "soon" just as Christ said of His return. Then. But the end of the age...is the ONLY THING that would be in the distant future...until the times [these times] of the gentiles are fulfilled. Chronologically, that means "It [was] finished" "then" and all that remains is the "times" of each person in the times of the gentiles: each in his own order 1 Corinthians 15:23.
 
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jerry kelso

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Yet Adam and Eve DID have Satan in the "perfect garden" to tempt them to sin didn't they?



If the Church age didn't begin until Pentecost, What age did the disciples ask Jesus about it's end in Matthew 24?

3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?"

parousia70,

1. The perfect garden was because God made it good and perfect and the curse was not upon the creation including man because they were sinless.

2. Satan is the prince of the power of the air but he ruled the earth before Adam and Eve and defiled the sanctuaries then and forfeited his rule. Satan was a creative being with an indestructible body that was created eternal. Being creative he could sin and it was because of pride he fell.
God wanted a family of freewill people to serve him and he created man. The great confrontation is between God and Satan and righteousness and evil.

3. God created man to live forever and though he gave them a body that was perfect they could die from sin and at the same time be able to attain reconciliation to redemption.
Satan is the accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:10) before God day and night Does that mean that it taints or destroys God's perfection? Of course not.

4. The church age was full of people from Jesus day of jews under the law and technically the church age began at the time of the resurrection. The Day of Pentecost brought the Holy Spirit to be able to perform the mission of making disciples (Matthew 28:19) under the new covenant and not the law of Moses.
Matthew 24; Jesus was answering the disciple's question of the sign of his coming and the end of this world.

5. This was separate from verse 1 which Jesus prophesied the overthrow of the temple and the nation which happened in 70 A.D. At the same time the disciples understood the kingdom message and their place in the earthly kingdom and so they asked about the end of the world. This context is about the generation that will be alive at the time of Jacob's trouble which is in Jeremiah 31; Daniel 12 and Revelation 11. This is when the tares and wheat will be separated (Matthew 13).

6. Jesus wrote in a way that sounded he was talking to the present generation when he was pertaining to a future context. Matthew 24:4 says; Jesus answered and said to them, Take heed that no man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and deceive many.

7. The first part take heed that no man deceive sounds like its talking about the disciples age but doesn't harmonize with the time factor of the context. Even in verse 9 Jesus said; then shall they deliver you up and shall kill you etc. This happened to the disciples in 70 A.D. but the context is nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom and hated of all nations and the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come. This did not happen in 70 A.D. for it was just about the Roman kingdom and many parts of the world didn't know and were not in that kingdom. Today, the whole world is populated and the world has global relations with each other. Jerry Kelso
 
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ScottA

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7. The first part take heed that no man deceive sounds like its talking about the disciples age but doesn't harmonize with the time factor of the context.
Jesus' words don't harmonize?

They do, if you receive them as truth...if you take Him at His word.

Is your interpretation of the context greater than His ability to convey the truth?

He has spoken for Himself...why do you insist on telling it differently? :( You do Him no service.
 
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jerry kelso

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Jesus' words don't harmonize?

They do, if you receive them as truth...if you take Him at His word.

Is your interpretation of the context greater than His ability to convey the truth?

He has spoken for Himself...why do you insist on telling it differently? :( You do Him no service.

scotta,

1. I didn't say Jesus word was at odds with anything. I said the way that the scripture is written sounds like it is talking about the disciples and 70 A.D. This is why those who believe Christ came in 70 A.D. believe this context to be only historical about the disciples. Even Einstein would understand this.

2. The truth is that Jesus was talking in the context of the end of time which was not 70 A.D. So my interpretation harmonizes with the truth because it is the proper context.
Christ spoke in the proper context of the end of this world and not 70 A.D. or whatever you believe that may be contrary to the context.

3. I don't know you but either you cannot comprehend simple statements or else you are purposely trying to cast doubt of the true context because you can't prove your belief that may not harmonize with the context and the truth.

4. You are definitely not walking like Einstein in understanding a plain context and Einstein didn't believe in God except for creation because he didn't understand suffering etc. You would be better serve if you showed the proper context than just disagreeing, because anybody can disagree and cast doubt. Jerry kelso
 
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Dave Watchman

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But...it is obvious that you are intent on explaining all things, even heavenly things, in earthly terms and earthly fulfillment. It is that impasse that makes you off topic...not that there isn't an earthly component, but that there is more importantly a heavenly [spiritual] component. The original post pits the earthly and heavenly [spiritual] understanding of the fulfillment of Christ's kingdom against one another...but you have only explained earthly things, pushing any spiritual [heavenly] fulfillment off into the future.

He reigns [even now].

Sorry man, He may have been given the authority in Matthew 28 but Jesus does not begin to reign until the days of the trumpet call sounded by the seventh angel, the 24 elders call it in Revelation 11:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”​

Jesus is going to destroy the destroyers of the earth. That's what it means to rule them with a rod of iron. He's not going to govern the wicked in a post tribulation kingdom on earth, He's going to kill the wicked or destroy the destroyers of the earth. This doesn't sound to me like a "spiritual" destruction.

"From his mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod."

Which is the equivalent of "destroying the destroyers of the earth."

"You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

This will be hard to miss because the wicked will all be dead and the rest of us will be transformed into whatever we become next.

That means no more human beings right? The mystery of God would be fulfilled. His servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear His name, both small and great will be rewarded with the crown of life and reign with Him for a thousand years. So if the reign is not on a destroyed earth then it's to the Father's House with many rooms that we go. After all, He spent so much time preparing a place for us, if it were not so would He have told us?

It's too easy to "spiritualize" everything away. We're going to be in a very large physical structure built by the Hand of God and we're going to eat food and drink beverages just like Jesus did with the disciples after He was resurrected.

"I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Jesus' words are very clear to me. We are not going to just be wispy spirit vapors floating around in a strange void. Even the cast out demons from Matthew 8 would rather go into a heard of pigs than to float around in the abyss:

"And the demons begged him, saying, “If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of pigs.”

It didn't work out too well for them though. The pigs ran down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the waters. They should have asked Jesus to put them into a flock of seagulls or something.

Maybe not all demons are that smart?
 
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ScottA

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scotta,

1. I didn't say Jesus word was at odds with anything. I said the way that the scripture is written sounds like it is talking about the disciples and 70 A.D. This is why those who believe Christ came in 70 A.D. believe this context to be only historical about the disciples. Even Einstein would understand this.

2. The truth is that Jesus was talking in the context of the end of time which was not 70 A.D. So my interpretation harmonizes with the truth because it is the proper context.
Christ spoke in the proper context of the end of this world and not 70 A.D. or whatever you believe that may be contrary to the context.

3. I don't know you but either you cannot comprehend simple statements or else you are purposely trying to cast doubt of the true context because you can't prove your belief that may not harmonize with the context and the truth.

4. You are definitely not walking like Einstein in understanding a plain context and Einstein didn't believe in God except for creation because he didn't understand suffering etc. You would be better serve if you showed the proper context than just disagreeing, because anybody can disagree and cast doubt. Jerry kelso
I quoted your comment that Christ's words do not harmonize with your interpretation. It is you who do not agree with Christ and His word, context or no...it doesn't harmonize for you. That is what you said. The rest can only be conjecture. :(

Jesus' word harmonizes perfectly for me.
 
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ScottA

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Sorry man, He may have been given the authority in Matthew 28 but Jesus does not begin to reign until the days of the trumpet call sounded by the seventh angel, the 24 elders call it in Revelation 11:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”​

Jesus is going to destroy the destroyers of the earth. That's what it means to rule them with a rod of iron. He's not going to govern the wicked in a post tribulation kingdom on earth, He's going to kill the wicked or destroy the destroyers of the earth. This doesn't sound to me like a "spiritual" destruction.

"From his mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod."

Which is the equivalent of "destroying the destroyers of the earth."

"You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

This will be hard to miss because the wicked will all be dead and the rest of us will be transformed into whatever we become next.

That means no more human beings right? The mystery of God would be fulfilled. His servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear His name, both small and great will be rewarded with the crown of life and reign with Him for a thousand years. So if the reign is not on a destroyed earth then it's to the Father's House with many rooms that we go. After all, He spent so much time preparing a place for us, if it were not so would He have told us?

It's too easy to "spiritualize" everything away. We're going to be in a very large physical structure built by the Hand of God and we're going to eat food and drink beverages just like Jesus did with the disciples after He was resurrected.

"I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Jesus' words are very clear to me. We are not going to just be wispy spirit vapors floating around in a strange void. Even the cast out demons from Matthew 8 would rather go into a heard of pigs than to float around in the abyss:

"And the demons begged him, saying, “If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of pigs.”

It didn't work out too well for them though. The pigs ran down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the waters. They should have asked Jesus to put them into a flock of seagulls or something.

Maybe not all demons are that smart?
That all assumes that "It is [not] finished." I say it is.
 
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parousia70

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Matthew 24; Jesus was answering the disciple's question of the sign of his coming and the end of this world.

The disciples did not ask about the end of the Planet. They asked about the end of the age.
 
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parousia70

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2. The truth is that Jesus was talking in the context of the end of time which was not 70 A.D.

1) Indeed the end of Time was not 70AD

2) Jesus NEVER speaks of an end of time. You have inserted that into the text.

Indeed, Scripture teaches that the material cosmos, including this earth, will last forever:
(Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21)
And that human generations are perpetual:
(Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)
 
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jerry kelso

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1) Indeed the end of Time was not 70AD

2) Jesus NEVER speaks of an end of time. You have inserted that into the text.

Indeed, Scripture teaches that the material cosmos, including this earth, will last forever:
(Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21)

parousia70,

Why do you keep bringing up false conclusions and ridiculous objections?

Matthew 24:3 was the disciples question about the END OF THE WORLD and Jesus was answering to this. Can you read english? What part of the END OF THE WORLD DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND!
The end of the world has nothing to do with the earth not lasting forever. It is about the kingdoms of this world becoming Christ (Revelation 11:15). Either you are not thinking because you have tunnel vision of whatever you believe or do you just like false concluding and ridiculous objections? Jerry kelso
 
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Dave Watchman

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That all assumes that "It is [not] finished." I say it is.

Sorry, your assumption is incorrect. "It is [once and for all] finished."

I'd say it is too.

What it seems that your eschatology is doing is to confuse "It is finished" with "It is done". There's probably more than 3050 years in between these two.

"It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.…
"It is [not yet] done".
 
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parousia70

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parousia70,

Why do you keep bringing up false conclusions and ridiculous objections?
Rather, I'm objecting to your false claims and ridiculous conclusions.
Matthew 24:3 was the disciples question about the END OF THE WORLD and Jesus was answering to this.
Again, for your Education, The Disciples asked Jesus about the end of the AGE. The end of the very AGE they were Born into and Living in. They were asking about the END of the OLD COVENANT AGE, signified by the Destruction of the Temple that Jesus just told them would happen. These events were synonymous in the Disciples eyes and with Good reason, for Christ taught it to them, and He answered them directly, telling them all the things that would happen before the temple came down and the age ended... giving them the signs to FLEE Jerusalem, which they Did..

Can you read english? What part of the END OF THE WORLD DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND!

I can read English, yes. Is it your contention that Jesus spoke English? LOL
Is it your contention that Matthew wrote the Gospel in ENGLISH? LOL

Can you use a Greek Lexicon? The Word you claim correctly translates to the English word WORLD is the Greek word AION which means AGE or PERIOD OF TIME.

It does not mean the material Cosmos or Planet, EVER.

What part of END OF THE AGE DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND??
 
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parousia70

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What it seems that your eschatology is doing is to confuse "It is finished" with "It is done".


Isn't that kind of like saying you are confusing a Black Cadillac with a Cadillac that's Back?
 
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jerry kelso

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Rather, I'm objecting to your false claims and ridiculous conclusions.
Again, for your Education, The Disciples asked Jesus about the end of the AGE. The end of the very AGE they were Born into and Living in. They were asking about the END of the OLD COVENANT AGE, signified by the Destruction of the Temple that Jesus just told them would happen. These events were synonymous in the Disciples eyes and with Good reason, for Christ taught it to them, and He answered them directly, telling them all the things that would happen before the temple came down and the age ended... giving them the signs to FLEE Jerusalem, which they Did..



I can read English, yes. Is it your contention that Jesus spoke English? LOL
Is it your contention that Matthew wrote the Gospel in ENGLISH? LOL

Can you use a Greek Lexicon? The Word you claim correctly translates to the English word WORLD is the Greek word AION which means AGE or PERIOD OF TIME.

It does not mean the material Cosmos or Planet, EVER.

What part of END OF THE AGE DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND??

ladodger,

I already covered the end of the age and why it wasn't the time of the disciples.
Jesus told them about the temple by showing them the buildings of the temple and said, there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Then he was sitting on the mount of olives and they asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world. This had nothing to do with the temple being plummeted in 70 A.D. Christ did not come back in their time or 70 A.D.
You have no scripture to prove your point. the end of the age and the end of the world is the same as the end of the world in Matthew 13 which deals with the tares and the wheat are separated and the children of the kingdom saved and the wicked done away with. The last time I looked God's elect was gone in 70 A.D. and the wicked were victorious which were the Romans and the kingdom was not set up. You are wrong again. Quit dodging the truth of the scripture that I presented. I have a hunch you are doing it on purpose because I can't believe that you can't understand what I have shown. Jerry kelso
 
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parousia70

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ladodger,

I already covered the end of the age and why it wasn't the time of the disciples.
Jesus told them about the temple by showing them the buildings of the temple and said, there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Then he was sitting on the mount of olives and they asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world. This had nothing to do with the temple being plummeted in 70 A.D.

So you insist that when the Disciples asked "when will THESE THINGS BE" that "THESE THINGS" does not include the temple coming down?

Really?

When Jesus said "The temple is coming down" and the disciples then asked him "WHEN LORD"? It should be clear to anyone with a modicum of understanding, and anyone without a previously held Bias to uphold, that their question, and His answer, was about WHEN the temple would be dismantled.

Luke 21 Clearly attests to that fact, warning them that "When you see Jerusalem encompassed by armies, know that it's desolation is near and FLEE!"

Only those with a previously held bias against this would try to twist the scriptures into something else.
 
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ScottA

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Sorry, your assumption is incorrect. "It is [once and for all] finished."

I'd say it is too.

What it seems that your eschatology is doing is to confuse "It is finished" with "It is done". There's probably more than 3050 years in between these two.

"It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.…
"It is [not yet] done".
I see that you believe the bowls of God's wrath only come at the end...or something like that. I do not. Such great wrath has been upon all men since Adam.... But that cannot be understood within the confines of the illusion of time: God is timeless, and this, being His story, has no such chronology. It is all a "created" illusion, biblically and scientifically. All of creation, all of what we attribute to time, actually occurred in the twinkling of an eye: His. ;)
 
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