Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[jerry kelso]

The promise to Abraham concerning the land had been fulfilled long before Jesus gave His sermon on the mount. You continue to ignore Joshua 21:43-45.

43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hands. 45 Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.

Jesus was not saying the meek would literally inherit the earth (also translated land). Keep in mind that the land of Canaan was and is regarded as a type of heaven (Hebrews 3:16-4:10). Jesus is saying the meek would be received into the heavenly kingdom and receive blessings there.


Jesus, King of Kings, Lord of Lords is reigning now and forever. His kingdom is here. Christians are His subjects. Jesus rules and reigns in the hearts of men.


Jesus has been seated on the throne of David, the throne of God, in heaven since the resurrection where he was given all rule and authority on heaven and earth. Mt 28:18-29


Twice above, you used the phrase "Israel's earthly calling."

For the sake of clarification, could you explain in two or three sentences what you believe "Israel's earthly calling" is. I am not asking you to give supporting Scripture or lengthy details. I only want to understand what your position is.

Thanks, and may your day be blessed.

Katie

katiemygirl,

1. I don't doubt Joshua because I agree for back then. The whole book of Joshua is a type of Christ and of how they will be in covenant in the future. This was in the day of Joshua and Caleb.

2. The meek inheriting the earth had all to do with the earthly kingdom and not heaven itself. You need to read the old testament again and understand the earthly kingdom rule. The literal heaven will have no earthly people to rule and reign over as such as the kingdoms of the world which will become Christ in Revelation 11:15. Even, the church is being trained now for rulership positions in the earthly kingdom; 2 Timothy 2:12. You only have a small part of the picture and do not understand the big picture of how this reign is connected with restoration of all things.

3. Listen, the gospels was all about the literal earthly reign with Israel as the head of the nations and they had to be obedient by repenting. Matthew 4:17; Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The meek inheriting the earth had to do with Israel's calling because they were backslidden and out of covenant with God under the covenant of the Mosaic law and only for Israel and not the church Matthew 10:6-7. It was not a message to the church for there was no church. If the salt of the earth has lost its savor is no good if it is trodden down under the foot of men. Israel has been trodden down under the foot of men since 70 A.D. The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church and that is why the church has never been trodden down under the foot of men.

4. Isaiah 9:6-7 was a prophecy of the messiah where the government would be upon his shoulders and this didn't happen physically of the promise of the throne of David.
Jesus was given all authority and to be honest God has always been in control overall over Satan even though he in control of the sinful men and world governments.

5. Matthew 28:29 has nothing to do with fulfillment of David's throne. Jesus was speaking after the resurrection and to the early church disciples. Act 1:6-7 the jews were still looking for the kingdom and he said it was not for them to know the times and seasons. He never said that the kingdom would not come to fruition for he said it would happen but only when God says it will. You cannot disprove that.
The earthly calling of Israel is when Israel will be at the head of the nations to rule and reign with Christ, David, Abraham. The 12 disciples will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Read Matthew 19:28.

6. Israel will be purged to reach their destination and fulfill their covenants. The church is being trained now according to 2 Timothy 2:12 and do not have to be purged in the tribulation for they will be in heaven. Revelation 4 and 5 represented by the 24 elders and they will be in heaven being judged for their works in the middle of the tribulation in Revelation 11:18 and coming out of Heaven with Christ in Revelation 19:11-15. This is why the rapture is before the tribulation. We are being trained before the tribulation for rulership training. Israel will be purged; Daniel 9:24-27 and made a nation born in one day Isaiah 66:6-7 and Christ will bring for her children out of travail which is the tribulation.
I have to go but this will be good enough for now. Get the big picture. God bless Jerry Kelso

 

[ScottA]

katiemygirl,

1. I don't doubt Joshua because I agree for back then. The whole book of Joshua is a type of Christ and of how they will be in covenant in the future. This was in the day of Joshua and Caleb.

2. The meek inheriting the earth had all to do with the earthly kingdom and not heaven itself. You need to read the old testament again and understand the earthly kingdom rule. The literal heaven will have no earthly people to rule and reign over as such as the kingdoms of the world which will become Christ in Revelation 11:15. Even, the church is being trained now for rulership positions in the earthly kingdom; 2 Timothy 2:12. You only have a small part of the picture and do not understand the big picture of how this reign is connected with restoration of all things.

3. Listen, the gospels was all about the literal earthly reign with Israel as the head of the nations and they had to be obedient by repenting. Matthew 4:17; Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The meek inheriting the earth had to do with Israel's calling because they were backslidden and out of covenant with God under the covenant of the Mosaic law and only for Israel and not the church Matthew 10:6-7. It was not a message to the church for there was no church. If the salt of the earth has lost its savor is no good if it is trodden down under the foot of men. Israel has been trodden down under the foot of men since 70 A.D. The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church and that is why the church has never been trodden down under the foot of men.

4. Isaiah 9:6-7 was a prophecy of the messiah where the government would be upon his shoulders and this didn't happen physically of the promise of the throne of David.
Jesus was given all authority and to be honest God has always been in control overall over Satan even though he in control of the sinful men and world governments.

5. Matthew 28:29 has nothing to do with fulfillment of David's throne. Jesus was speaking after the resurrection and to the early church disciples. Act 1:6-7 the jews were still looking for the kingdom and he said it was not for them to know the times and seasons. He never said that the kingdom would not come to fruition for he said it would happen but only when God says it will. You cannot disprove that.
The earthly calling of Israel is when Israel will be at the head of the nations to rule and reign with Christ, David, Abraham. The 12 disciples will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Read Matthew 19:28.

6. Israel will be purged to reach their destination and fulfill their covenants. The church is being trained now according to 2 Timothy 2:12 and do not have to be purged in the tribulation for they will be in heaven. Revelation 4 and 5 represented by the 24 elders and they will be in heaven being judged for their works in the middle of the tribulation in Revelation 11:18 and coming out of Heaven with Christ in Revelation 19:11-15. This is why the rapture is before the tribulation. We are being trained before the tribulation for rulership training. Israel will be purged; Daniel 9:24-27 and made a nation born in one day Isaiah 66:6-7 and Christ will bring for her children out of travail which is the tribulation.
I have to go but this will be good enough for now. Get the big picture. God bless Jerry Kelso

Jerry, you are not alone in your beliefs. But just as God held Israel in blindness until the fullness of the gentiles, He has also held most of Christendom in a similar blindness for the same reason. Many of whom go so far as to contradict Christ, saying that it is not "finished", or that "soon" can be explained away for millennia.

But, no, God has done a marvelous work whose witnesses were before and after His hour of visitation among the flesh. The first witness witnessed "by faith" of His coming in the future, while the second witness witnesses "by faith" that He has already come. This is the "spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10

The details that you speak of are like grains of sand slipping through the hands of time, mere parables manifest in the lives of as many generations. But it all means nothing if not for the message they convey: Christ came for Israel, it is finished. These are now the times of the gentiles.

 

[GregoryTheNonTheologian]

Revelation 20:4 says,

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This passage says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem. Those that teach this are duty-bound to prove their doctrine with scripture.

Did you know that the phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, the doctrine is prevalent among so many denominations.

Where does this passage mention Christ's second coming?

Where does it mention a reign on earth?

Where does it mention Christ on earth?

Those who believe in a future earthly reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual Kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical Kingdom.

The truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity. We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives, for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now, whether we choose to recognize it or not.

 

[GregoryTheNonTheologian]

Revelation 20:4 says,

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This passage says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem. Those that teach this are duty-bound to prove their doctrine with scripture.

Did you know that the phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, the doctrine is prevalent among so many denominations.

I think you are exactly right here. Millennialism - also called Chiliasm - is a heresy that has arisen from time-to-time as early as the 2nd century. It was condemned by the 150 Church Fathers who gathered at the Second Ecumenical Council at Constantinople in 381. In response to the heresy, the Council added the phrase "And His Kingdom will have no end" to the original Nicene Creed.

[The Christian Forums Statement of Faith, although titled "Nicene Creed", is actually this later Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed defined at the Second Ecumenical Council.]

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry, you are not alone in your beliefs. But just as God held Israel in blindness until the fullness of the gentiles, He has also held most of Christendom in a similar blindness for the same reason. Many of whom go so far as to contradict Christ, saying that it is not "finished", or that "soon" can be explained away for millennia.

But, no, God has done a marvelous work whose witnesses were before and after His hour of visitation among the flesh. The first witness witnessed "by faith" of His coming in the future, while the second witness witnesses "by faith" that He has already come. This is the "spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10

The details that you speak of are like grains of sand slipping through the hands of time, mere parables manifest in the lives of as many generations. But it all means nothing if not for the message they convey: Christ came for Israel, it is finished. These are now the times of the gentiles.

scotta,
It is the time of the gentiles and in Romans 11:25 says that Israel is blind and will be till the time of the gentiles is finished. This will not happen till the end of the tribulation when the kingdoms of the world become Christ (Revelation 11:15).
Romans 9:27-28 says Israel will have a remnant that will be saved and that he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. Zechariah 13:9 says that 2/3 of Israel will be cut off and 1/3 will be saved which is the remnant. Romans 11:29 says that Israel's gifts and callings are without repentance.
It is very plain that Israel has not fulfilled the new covenant as a nation and they have not taken their rightful place as head of the nations yet, but they will in the future kingdom. Read Hebrews 8:7-13 about the jews fulfilling the new covenant which was first prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-32 and rejected in Christ day (Matthew 23:37-39). Christ is not finished with Israel and the bible says that plainly enough, one just has to believe what it says. Jerry kelso

 

[GregoryTheNonTheologian]

Revelation 20:4 says,

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This passage says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem. Those that teach this are duty-bound to prove their doctrine with scripture.

Did you know that the phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, the doctrine is prevalent among so many denominations.

Where does this passage mention Christ's second coming?

Where does it mention a reign on earth?

Where does it mention Christ on earth?

Those who believe in a future earthly reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual Kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical Kingdom.

The truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity. We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives, for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now, whether we choose to recognize it or not.

You might also be interested in these articles by Orthodox Christian writers:

http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2015/10/stump-priest-millennialism.html
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_thousandyearreign.aspx
http://www.passaicrussianchurch.com/books/english/dogmatics_pomazansky.htm#_Toc514547880

 

[ScottA]

scotta,
It is the time of the gentiles and in Romans 11:25 says that Israel is blind and will be till the time of the gentiles is finished. This will not happen till the end of the tribulation when the kingdoms of the world become Christ (Revelation 11:15).
Romans 9:27-28 says Israel will have a remnant that will be saved and that he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. Zechariah 13:9 says that 2/3 of Israel will be cut off and 1/3 will be saved which is the remnant. Romans 11:29 says that Israel's gifts and callings are without repentance.
It is very plain that Israel has not fulfilled the new covenant as a nation and they have not taken their rightful place as head of the nations yet, but they will in the future kingdom. Read Hebrews 8:7-13 about the jews fulfilling the new covenant which was first prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-32 and rejected in Christ day (Matthew 23:37-39). Christ is not finished with Israel and the bible says that plainly enough, one just has to believe what it says. Jerry kelso

All of that is good...except you have effectively called Christ a liar, saying it is [NOT] finished. How do you explain, believing your own quotes of scripture, but not believing what He said?

 

[katiemygirl]

You might also be interested in these articles by Orthodox Christian writers:

http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2015/10/stump-priest-millennialism.html
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_thousandyearreign.aspx
http://www.passaicrussianchurch.com/books/english/dogmatics_pomazansky.htm#_Toc514547880

Thank you for the articles. I've read the first one and part of the second. Very good!
Blessings,
Katie

 

[jerry kelso]

All of that is good...except you have effectively called Christ a liar, saying it is [NOT] finished. How do you explain, believing your own quotes of scripture, but not believing what He said?

scotta,

1. Obviously, you don't understand context. You have taken a plain statement and taken it out of context because of what you think the statement appears to say to what your reference means within itself.

2. You talked about the first witnesses when he came which would have been the jews witnessed his coming by faith which was future before then and the second that he has already come. These are true statements but have nothing to do with whether or not that Israel still has to still be the head of the nations. You are misusing the word finished.

3. Paul said Christ would finish the work and this was more than a decade after Israel had rejected Jesus and their covenant callings Romans (9:27-29). He also said the time factor for their blindness to be up is when the time of the gentiles is finished Romans (11:25-27). The time of the gentiles will not be up till Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world Revelation (11:15).

4. Israel rejected Christ in his day (Matthew 23:37-39). and in 70 A.D. was destroyed as a result of Jesus prophecy in (Matthew 24:1-3).
The time of the gentiles and the kingdoms of this world has not happened yet. Why? The time of the gentiles has to do with the gentile nations still in control of the world's governments which is no theocracy of Christ ruling physically on earth and this has to happen to lead to the restitution of all things; the restitution of all things, physically and spiritually across the board.

5. There is no scripture that says or implies that Christ work was finished for Israel's fulfillment of covenant blessings and promises. Isaiah 2:2-4 says they will be at the head of the nations and the law will go out of Zion and that has never happen.

6. When Christ said it was finished on the cross he was speaking of his mission as Messiah of dying for the world's sin and the sanctioning of the new testament in his blood and fulfilling the law of Moses for its time had expired and was finished Romans 10:4.

7. You are welcome to try and show scripture that says Christ finished his work with Israel but you will fail. Paul would have never mentioned about the remnant or about Israel's covenant blessing if he knew that Christ had finished the work for he was given the Dispensation of Grace and the ministry to the gentiles specifically after the jews would not listen (Acts 28:26-28). Salvation was sent to the gentiles for they would hear and hear they did and still do until the time for the purging of the jews (Daniel 9:24-27) to lead to their nation being born in one day and Zion brings forth their children (Isaiah 66:7-8).

8. Context is so important and is a part of proper hermeneutics that needs to be learned in rightly dividing the word and you have not shown it. You are welcome to rebut but I have shown that I have not called Christ a liar. Jerry Kelso

 

[katiemygirl]

scotta,

1. Obviously, you don't understand context. You have taken a plain statement and taken it out of context because of what you think the statement appears to say to what your reference means within itself.

2. You talked about the first witnesses when he came which would have been the jews witnessed his coming by faith which was future before then and the second that he has already come. These are true statements but have nothing to do with whether or not that Israel still has to still be the head of the nations. You are misusing the word finished.

3. Paul said Christ would finish the work and this was more than a decade after Israel had rejected Jesus and their covenant callings Romans (9:27-29). He also said the time factor for their blindness to be up is when the time of the gentiles is finished Romans (11:25-27). The time of the gentiles will not be up till Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world Revelation (11:15).

4. Israel rejected Christ in his day (Matthew 23:37-39). and in 70 A.D. was destroyed as a result of Jesus prophecy in (Matthew 24:1-3).
The time of the gentiles and the kingdoms of this world has not happened yet. Why? The time of the gentiles has to do with the gentile nations still in control of the world's governments which is no theocracy of Christ ruling physically on earth and this has to happen to lead to the restitution of all things; the restitution of all things, physically and spiritually across the board.

5. There is no scripture that says or implies that Christ work was finished for Israel's fulfillment of covenant blessings and promises. Isaiah 2:2-4 says they will be at the head of the nations and the law will go out of Zion and that has never happen.

6. When Christ said it was finished on the cross he was speaking of his mission as Messiah of dying for the world's sin and the sanctioning of the new testament in his blood and fulfilling the law of Moses for its time had expired and was finished Romans 10:4.

7. You are welcome to try and show scripture that says Christ finished his work with Israel but you will fail. Paul would have never mentioned about the remnant or about Israel's covenant blessing if he knew that Christ had finished the work for he was given the Dispensation of Grace and the ministry to the gentiles specifically after the jews would not listen (Acts 28:26-28). Salvation was sent to the gentiles for they would hear and hear they did and still do until the time for the purging of the jews (Daniel 9:24-27) to lead to their nation being born in one day and Zion brings forth their children (Isaiah 66:7-8).

8. Context is so important and is a part of proper hermeneutics that needs to be learned in rightly dividing the word and you have not shown it. You are welcome to rebut. Jerry Kelso

You are full of yourself Jerry. You have this idea that you alone have understanding, and anyone who opposes your view has no understanding.

First you accused me, and now you say scotta has no understanding of context.

Get over yourself!

 

[jerry kelso]

You are full of yourself Jerry. You have this idea that you alone have understanding, and anyone who opposes your view has no understanding.

First you accused me, and now you say scotta has no understanding of context.

Get over yourself!

katiemygirl,
I have seen no scriptural proof just faulty hermeneutics of his own understanding and not biblical hermeneutics.
I am not an island unto myself for there are plenty of christians that know how to rightly divide the word and believe the same thing.
I don't believe in being full of myself but being full of God and his word.
I am sorry you don't understand and don't want to understand and this is your problem. No matter what viewpoint I have received whether I understood it or not or agreed with it I still have gone back to see what the scripture said and if what they said and meant agreed with the word.
You would be better served if you went back and learned proper hermeneutics so you can understand what and why I say what I say instead of closing your mind off automatically. It takes studying not just mere reading or listening and believing what one says because it seems to make sense. The bible says to be like the bereans to see if those if what one says is really true. Good luck and God help you. Jerry kelso

 

[ScottA]

scotta,

1. Obviously, you don't understand context. You have taken a plain statement and taken it out of context because of what you think the statement appears to say to what your reference means within itself.

2. You talked about the first witnesses when he came which would have been the jews witnessed his coming by faith which was future before then and the second that he has already come. These are true statements but have nothing to do with whether or not that Israel still has to still be the head of the nations. You are misusing the word finished.

3. Paul said Christ would finish the work and this was more than a decade after Israel had rejected Jesus and their covenant callings Romans (9:27-29). He also said the time factor for their blindness to be up is when the time of the gentiles is finished Romans (11:25-27). The time of the gentiles will not be up till Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world Revelation (11:15).

4. Israel rejected Christ in his day (Matthew 23:37-39). and in 70 A.D. was destroyed as a result of Jesus prophecy in (Matthew 24:1-3).
The time of the gentiles and the kingdoms of this world has not happened yet. Why? The time of the gentiles has to do with the gentile nations still in control of the world's governments which is no theocracy of Christ ruling physically on earth and this has to happen to lead to the restitution of all things; the restitution of all things, physically and spiritually across the board.

5. There is no scripture that says or implies that Christ work was finished for Israel's fulfillment of covenant blessings and promises. Isaiah 2:2-4 says they will be at the head of the nations and the law will go out of Zion and that has never happen.

6. When Christ said it was finished on the cross he was speaking of his mission as Messiah of dying for the world's sin and the sanctioning of the new testament in his blood and fulfilling the law of Moses for its time had expired and was finished Romans 10:4.

7. You are welcome to try and show scripture that says Christ finished his work with Israel but you will fail. Paul would have never mentioned about the remnant or about Israel's covenant blessing if he knew that Christ had finished the work for he was given the Dispensation of Grace and the ministry to the gentiles specifically after the jews would not listen (Acts 28:26-28). Salvation was sent to the gentiles for they would hear and hear they did and still do until the time for the purging of the jews (Daniel 9:24-27) to lead to their nation being born in one day and Zion brings forth their children (Isaiah 66:7-8).

8. Context is so important and is a part of proper hermeneutics that needs to be learned in rightly dividing the word and you have not shown it. You are welcome to rebut. Jerry Kelso

1. One of us has context wrong, for sure. But as I said, it is not only you, but most of Christendom, and for all of this time and for the purpose of a similar blindness upon the gentiles until their own time is finished.

2. The first of two witnesses, was ALL of Israel, all who had faith in the coming of Christ before His coming: These are the sons of the first Adam. The second witness, are those born again of the spirit of God, the sons of the second Adam. Two witnesses.

3. In Romans 9:27-29, Paul is quoting Isaiah who spoke of what Christ would do [future]...Christ then did the [short] work...and "It is finished." The correct context is of Paul telling of the context of Isaiah, telling of the context of Christ. You have it incorrect, as if Paul is not quoting Isaiah and referring to times passed, but projecting his own prophecy of a future time...which he is not. Your context is incorrect.

4. During these times (of the gentiles) Christ is indeed ruling. He is in us and with us, and it is not we who speak, but He whom Christ sent to help us in this battle among the nations, which is not ours but His. He reigns.

5. The scriptures that indicate that it is finished for Israel, are Christ's own words: He came "for the house of Israel", and "It is finished." As such, that makes Israel Head, the forerunner. They are the dead in Christ (the Head). Nevertheless, the first will be last, and last first. Your chronology contradicts this key statement.

6. You assume that Christ did not finish what he came for (the house of Israel), even after he said He did. His actions and words need no defense. You have not given him credit for all that he has done, and claimed. Why do you not take Him at his word?

7. The riddle of Daniel's 70 weeks eludes you: Christ [was] cut off, already.

8. Your understanding of the context (as I have explained), is incorrect.

 

[jerry kelso]

1. One of us has context wrong, for sure. But as I said, it is not only you, but most of Christendom, and for all of this time and for the purpose of a similar blindness upon the gentiles until their own time is finished.

2. The first of two witnesses, was ALL of Israel, all who had faith in the coming of Christ before His coming: These are the sons of the first Adam. The second witness, are those born again of the spirit of God, the sons of the second Adam. Two witnesses.

3. In Romans 9:27-29, Paul is quoting Isaiah who spoke of what Christ would do [future]...Christ then did the [short] work...and "It is finished." The correct context is of Paul telling of the context of Isaiah, telling of the context of Christ. You have it incorrect, as if Paul is not quoting Isaiah and referring to times passed, but projecting his own prophecy of a future time...which he is not. Your context is incorrect.

4. During these times (of the gentiles) Christ is indeed ruling. He is in us and with us, and it is not we who speak, but He whom Christ sent to help us in this battle among the nations, which is not ours but His. He reigns.

5. The scriptures that indicate that it is finished for Israel, are Christ's own words: He came "for the house of Israel", and "It is finished." As such, that makes Israel Head, the forerunner. They are the dead in Christ (the Head). Nevertheless, the first will be last, and last first. Your chronology contradicts this key statement.

6. You assume that Christ did not finish what he came for (the house of Israel), even after he said He did. His actions and words need no defense. You have not given him credit for all that he has done, and claimed. Why do you not take Him at his word?

7. The riddle of Daniel's 70 weeks eludes you: Christ [was] cut off, already.

8. Your understanding of the context (as I have explained), is incorrect.

scotta,

1. I am sorry but you are in man's assumption context being the term christendom and not the biblical context.

2. The two witnesses example is a true statement of who witnessed before and after. This has nothing to do with the context of Israel's calling.

3. Romans 9:27-29 doesn't say that Christ was finishing the work of Israel's callings and covenant promises. You have given no scripture that says or implies that Christ finished the work in his day or Paul's.
What you believe was finished permanently is the propagating of the gospel by Israel because Paul went to the gentiles and the church is who God is using today.
God is only using the church spiritually not the physical kingdom and this is what the problem is when one believes that Christ finished his work with Israel concerning the physical kingdom. Paul would have never been so heavy burdened for his fellow kinfolks if the work was already finished. This is because today in the church era all are in the same body of Christ whether jew or gentile and Paul taught this but at the same time he knew the covenants of Israel and that God had not forgotten them. This is the whole emphasis in the context of Romans 9-11 and is made in plain statements as well.

4. We are not battling the nations. That is a ridiculous statement. Our fight is with the enemy called Satan and that is why Paul fought the good fight of faith. Read his epistles and Ephesians 6 which deals with warring against principalities and powers of the air, etc. Read your bible and understand proper biblical hermeneutics.

5. Coming for the house of Israel to take their rightful place at the head of the nations (Isaiah 2:2-4) and this has never happened yet, but it will. It is finished was said at the cross and had nothing to do with Israel's callings. If you think that you are right give the specific scripture about for the house of Israel and Christ saying it was finished.

6. As I said before give the specific scripture that says Christ finished the work permanently with Israel concerning their covenant which had rulership at the head of the nations. (Isaiah 2:2-4).

7. Christ was cut off and not for himself at the cross. Daniel 9:24-27 talks about to finish the transgressions, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness happened at Calvary but was not appropriated to the nation of Israel because they rejected Christ (Matthew 23:37-39).
To anoint the most holy refers to the cleansing of the holy of holies and will be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom. This didn't happen in Christ time or 70 A.D. The "most Holy" is never used of a person nor would the jews ever associate this term with their Messiah. This is why the spiritual application is not a right application for this.
There were 483 years from the third decree to the crucifixion of the Messiah, or 69 of the seventy sevens of years, leaving the last period of seven years concerning Israel and Jerusalem to be fulfilled after the crucifixion.
Verse 27 speaks of the confirmation of the covenant with many for 1 week which is 7 years. The Abomination of Desolation is found in Revelation 11:1-3. There has been the oblation ceasing and being abominated before but they were type and is not the same as Revelation 11. However this abomination was not an issue in Jesus prophecy of the temple being destroyed. He just said not one stone would be left on another.

8. Your understanding of the context is what is wrong and you have no scripture to prove Christ finished his work permanently with Israel's calling concerning the Kingdom of Heaven reign on earth. You can try again. Jerry kelso

 

[katiemygirl]

katiemygirl,
I have seen no scriptural proof just faulty hermeneutics of his own understanding and not biblical hermeneutics.
I am not an island unto myself for there are plenty of christians that know how to rightly divide the word and believe the same thing.
I don't believe in being full of myself but being full of God and his word.
I am sorry you don't understand and don't want to understand and this is your problem. No matter what viewpoint I have received whether I understood it or not or agreed with it I still have gone back to see what the scripture said and if what they said and meant agreed with the word.
You would be better served if you went back and learned proper hermeneutics so you can understand what and why I say what I say instead of closing your mind off automatically. It takes studying not just mere reading or listening and believing what one says because it seems to make sense. The bible says to be like the bereans to see if those if what one says is really true. Good luck and God help you. Jerry kelso

Jerry,

I have no problem with people who think different than I do. What I object to is your constant insinuations that those who disagree with you don't understand context, have faulty hermeneutics, or don't study the Bible. Those kinds of accusations are condescending and have no place in an honest debate.

I personally don't believe either of our views about this topic have a thing to do with our salvation. It's good to debate whether the Bible teaches a future earthly kingdom, but it must be done with language that doesn't put other christians down.

I work hard at not insulting other people's intelligence or understanding. I try to stick to the topic and not get personal. I pray you will do the same.

Katie

 

[ScottA]

scotta,

1. I am sorry but you are in man's assumption context being the term christendom and not the biblical context.

2. The two witnesses example is a true statement of who witnessed before and after. This has nothing to do with the context of Israel's calling.

3. Romans 9:27-29 doesn't say that Christ was finishing the work of Israel's callings and covenant promises. You have given no scripture that says or implies that Christ finished the work in his day or Paul's.
What you believe was finished permanently is the propagating of the gospel by Israel because Paul went to the gentiles and the church is who God is using today.
God is only using the church spiritually not the physical kingdom and this is what the problem is when one believes that Christ finished his work with Israel concerning the physical kingdom. Paul would have never been so heavy burdened for his fellow kinfolks if the work was already finished. This is because today in the church era all are in the same body of Christ whether jew or gentile and Paul taught this but at the same time he knew the covenants of Israel and that God had not forgotten them. This is the whole emphasis in the context of Romans 9-11 and is made in plain statements as well.

4. We are not battling the nations. That is a ridiculous statement. Our fight is with the enemy called Satan and that is why Paul fought the good fight of faith. Read his epistles and Ephesians 6 which deals with warring against principalities and powers of the air, etc. Read your bible and understand proper biblical hermeneutics.

5. Coming for the house of Israel to take their rightful place at the head of the nations (Isaiah 2:2-4) and this has never happened yet, but it will. It is finished was said at the cross and had nothing to do with Israel's callings. If you think that you are right give the specific scripture about for the house of Israel and Christ saying it was finished.

6. As I said before give the specific scripture that says Christ finished the work permanently with Israel concerning their covenant which had rulership at the head of the nations. (Isaiah 2:2-4).

7. Christ was cut off and not for himself at the cross. Daniel 9:24-27 talks about to finish the transgressions, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness happened at Calvary but was not appropriated to the nation of Israel because they rejected Christ (Matthew 23:37-39).
To anoint the most holy refers to the cleansing of the holy of holies and will be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom. This didn't happen in Christ time or 70 A.D. The "most Holy" is never used of a person nor would the jews ever associate this term with their Messiah. This is why the spiritual application is not a right application for this.
There were 483 years from the third decree to the crucifixion of the Messiah, or 69 of the seventy sevens of years, leaving the last period of seven years concerning Israel and Jerusalem to be fulfilled after the crucifixion.
Verse 27 speaks of the confirmation of the covenant with many for 1 week which is 7 years. The Abomination of Desolation is found in Revelation 11:1-3. There has been the oblation ceasing and being abominated before but they were type and is not the same as Revelation 11. However this abomination was not an issue in Jesus prophecy of the temple being destroyed. He just said not one stone would be left on another.

8. Your understanding of the context is what is wrong and you have no scripture to prove Christ finished his work permanently with Israel's calling concerning the Kingdom of Heaven reign on earth. You can try again. Jerry kelso

I gave you the scriptures...but you deny, not what I say, but what Christ has said. Back to your slumber then.

PS, There is no "physical kingdom" (as you say) except for Satan's kingdom.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

I have no problem with people who think different than I do. What I object to is your constant insinuations that those who disagree with you don't understand context, have faulty hermeneutics, or don't study the Bible. Those kinds of accusations are condescending and have no place in an honest debate.

I personally don't believe either of our views about this topic have a thing to do with our salvation. It's good to debate whether the Bible teaches a future earthly kingdom, but it must be done with language that doesn't put other christians down.

I work hard at not insulting other people's intelligence or understanding. I try to stick to the topic and not get personal. I pray you will do the same.

Katie

katiemygirl,
It is not a personal thing with me. I am not insulting your intelligence and you are the one into making personal insulting remarks like you are full of yourself. I don't recall saying anything like that. I showed the biblical context and you have to rebut anything I said scripturally.
If it is just about each other giving their views then there is no debate and rebuttal, but only sharing how each other sees it from their point of view.
I have agreed with you on certain points like Joshua which is when the children of Israel first went into the promised land. However, you have to look at all the scriptures according to what transpired after that and understand their eternal promises of the Abrahamic and Davidic covenant. These were eternal covenants and they have not been fulfilled for Israel. One has to understand the full and big picture and not just part.
This topic is big and obviously you do not understand the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God message otherwise you wouldn't say that I got off of topic.
I am sorry you think I am condescending so I will try to do better next time because I am not to trying to do that but I believe in challenging according to the scripture and its context and reconciling all the scriptures together to harmonize.
Do you agree that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God had to do with restoring the physical kingdom and giving the kingdom reign to the jews at the head of the nations to rule and reign and that this message was conditioned on obedience to the spiritual Kingdom of God for God will not rule with man without a holy heart.
Adam and Eve lost both of these kingdoms and restoring them was about Jesus offer of the Kingdom. Even on the Day of Pentecost the disciples were still looking the kingdom and Jesus said it wasn't for them to know the time for only God knew. Later on in Peter's message he talked about the restitution of all things because of the like signs that happened on the Day of Pentecost that was things Joel spoke of. This was not a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy but it had similar signs of the end times. This restitution of all things shows that the land is connected to the restitution of all things and the millennial kingdom. Do you understand this? I would like to know for it is the scripture that is pointing to the millennial reign of Christ and Israel's part concerning the land and the kingdom. Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. Jerry Kelso

 

[katiemygirl]

I gave you the scriptures...but you deny, not what I say, but what Christ has said. Back to your slumber then.

PS, There is no "physical kingdom" (as you say) except for Satan's kingdom.

Amen!

 

[jerry kelso]

I gave you the scriptures...but you deny, not what I say, but what Christ has said. Back to your slumber then.

PS, There is no "physical kingdom" (as you say) except for Satan's kingdom.

scotta,
That is funny because Paul said the saints will judge the world and the angels as well in 1 Corinthians 6. In Revelation 20:4-6 John says the tribulations saints who got victory over the beast and the mark, etc. ruled and reigned for 1000 Years. Timothy 2:12 says to the church; if ye suffer ye shall reign.
You give no scripture so how do you think that you can even get to first base in proving your theory? Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Amen!

No scripture, no convincing. Jerry kelso

 

[civilwarbuff]

The new heaven and new earth are here, now, in all it's glory for all who are born of the spirit to come and go and move and have our being and existence in.. Those who are of the flesh cannot see, therefore they await a fleshly kingdom

If this is the NHNE, I want to talk to the manager...I got complaints....