Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[katiemygirl]

Revelation 20:4 says,

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This passage says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem. Those that teach this are duty-bound to prove their doctrine with scripture.

Did you know that the phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, the doctrine is prevalent among so many denominations.

Where does this passage mention Christ's second coming?

Where does it mention a reign on earth?

Where does it mention Christ on earth?

Those who believe in a future earthly reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual Kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical Kingdom.

The truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity. We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives, for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now, whether we choose to recognize it or not.

 

[Blade]

There are things many things written about Christ in the OT alone about this. There are things that YOU personally believe that are not written in the bible..did you know that? To say "trinity" is not written in the word is true but.. Father son holy Ghost.. trinity.

It is written how long and "WITH" Christ we will be..... We know there are no dead in heaven yet SOME will not be raised until? We know just before Jesus left He said "I will come back and get you/take you so where I am you will be". So ask your self will you be WITH Christ? When we that love Christ die do we go to be WITH Him? With mean something.

Again its not talking about in Heaven.. like I said.. no dead there. Plus you HAVE to take ALL the word not just a verse here and there and run with it. His feet will touch the ground it will be split! (Zac OT) He will not return until they call on Him.. to remember the one they have? Satan is alive and well.. no mark yet..not beast come to life and told to worship it.... Gods wrath has not been poured out yet. There are things written that HAVE to happen before this 1000y..with Christ.

The truth in which you speak is we need to live for Christ today. This is what matters. Know this.. we are free. The Father will never force anyone to believe. I am watching I am ready now for my friend my brother my savior my GOD. There is ..He will come tomorrow. It will always be NOW when He comes. Be ready watching and praying for HIM NOW! And you will never miss Him. Not sure the need you have to say "no thousand year".. its clearly written.

I always am at a loss in things like this. Well if its me that wonders about something ..I ask Him. Well its HIS word He is the word so no one knows it better then Him. We open our mouth and say JESUS IS LORD .. He is real.. yet so real that He lives where? Where is GOD right now? Wheres the sweet sweet Holy Spirit? ALL in you. God is in us to work and to do? So GOD the great I AM is IN US..yet you cant just pray and ask Him?

Sorry but for me I have never had a problem with this. Just someone comes along saying..no what He was really saying..what it really means. I say to that.. praise GOD! As in debating.. its clearly written about that ..yet look where we are..look what people do. I come to share....reason together.

 

[katiemygirl]

There are things many things written about Christ in the OT alone about this. There are things that YOU personally believe that are not written in the bible..did you know that? To say "trinity" is not written in the word is true but.. Father son holy Ghost.. trinity.

It is written how long and "WITH" Christ we will be..... We know there are no dead in heaven yet SOME will not be raised until? We know just before Jesus left He said "I will come back and get you/take you so where I am you will be". So ask your self will you be WITH Christ? When we that love Christ die do we go to be WITH Him? With mean something.

Again its not talking about in Heaven.. like I said.. no dead there. Plus you HAVE to take ALL the word not just a verse here and there and run with it. His feet will touch the ground it will be split! (Zac OT) He will not return until they call on Him.. to remember the one they have? Satan is alive and well.. no mark yet..not beast come to life and told to worship it.... Gods wrath has not been poured out yet. There are things written that HAVE to happen before this 1000y..with Christ.

The truth in which you speak is we need to live for Christ today. This is what matters. Know this.. we are free. The Father will never force anyone to believe. I am watching I am ready now for my friend my brother my savior my GOD. There is ..He will come tomorrow. It will always be NOW when He comes. Be ready watching and praying for HIM NOW! And you will never miss Him. Not sure the need you have to say "no thousand year".. its clearly written.

I always am at a loss in things like this. Well if its me that wonders about something ..I ask Him. Well its HIS word He is the word so no one knows it better then Him. We open our mouth and say JESUS IS LORD .. He is real.. yet so real that He lives where? Where is GOD right now? Wheres the sweet sweet Holy Spirit? ALL in you. God is in us to work and to do? So GOD the great I AM is IN US..yet you cant just pray and ask Him?

Sorry but for me I have never had a problem with this. Just someone comes along saying..no what He was really saying..what it really means. I say to that.. praise GOD! As in debating.. its clearly written about that ..yet look where we are..look what people do. I come to share....reason together.

Thank you for your response!

Rev. 20:4 is the verse used by premillennialists to support their teaching of a future physical earthly and political reign of a militant Christ, hence that is the reason I used it.

I promise you that I have taken the entire Bible under consideration to draw my conclusion.

Neither Jesus or any of His apostles taught about a future physical, earthly, political reign with a militant Christ.

As a matter of fact, the kingdom Jesus spoke of was spiritual by nature, not physical.

One must rely on his own private interpretation of OT prophesy and John's Revelation in order to draw the conclusion of a future physical, earthly, political kingdom.

All one needs to do is recognize the number and variety of these interpretations so-called Bible teachers promote. Turn on any one of the religious channels, and you will hear a plethora of what these prophecies supposedly mean.

Yet, we know that God is not the author of confusion!

In the NT alone, the word kingdom appears 63 times. Not once do any of the 63 occurrences say there will be a physical, earthly political kingdom with a militant Jesus.

With all due respect, I suggest that you or anyone reading this post read, in context, all 63 occurences of "kingdom" in the NT. When you finish with that, do the same with the OT. If memory serves me correctly, there are two Hebrew words for kingdom in the OT. I believe one occurs 117 times. The other can be found 57 times. It's a very interesting study, especially if you go into it without preconceived ideas. It was a real eye opener for me.

Blessings,

Katie

 

[jerry kelso]

Thank you for your response!

Rev. 20:4 is the verse used by premillennialists to support their teaching of a future physical earthly and political reign of a militant Christ, hence that is the reason I used it.

I promise you that I have taken the entire Bible under consideration to draw my conclusion.

Neither Jesus or any of His apostles taught about a future physical, earthly, political reign with a militant Christ.

As a matter of fact, the kingdom Jesus spoke of was spiritual by nature, not physical.

One must rely on his own private interpretation of OT prophesy and John's Revelation in order to draw the conclusion of a future physical, earthly, political kingdom.

All one needs to do is recognize the number and variety of these interpretations so-called Bible teachers promote. Turn on any one of the religious channels, and you will hear a plethora of what these prophecies supposedly mean.

Yet, we know that God is not the author of confusion!

In the NT alone, the word kingdom appears 63 times. Not once do any of the 63 occurrences say there will be a physical, earthly political kingdom with a militant Jesus.

With all due respect, I suggest that you or anyone reading this post read, in context, all 63 occurences of "kingdom" in the NT. When you finish with that, do the same with the OT. If memory serves me correctly, there are two Hebrew words for kingdom in the OT. I believe one occurs 117 times. The other can be found 57 times. It's a very interesting study, especially if you go into it without preconceived ideas. It was a real eye opener for me.

Blessings,

Katie

katie,

1. I am sorry but you are way off base about the physical kingdom and do not understand the redemptive plan of God concerning the restoration of all things physical and spiritual.

2. I am not sure of what your motive is for not believing in a physical kingdom but I can say with full assurance of the historical record in the word that Christ will come back in reality to set up an earthly kingdom known as the millennial kingdom.

3. The Abrahamic and the Davidic covenants are forever and involve spiritual promises and physical promises concerning land and earth as a whole. It concerns Israel as a nation and the church as an entity as well.
Israel will be at the head of the nations in the millennial kingdom Isaiah 2:2-4. They rejected Jesus message the first time (Matthew 23:37-39) and this is the reason for his coming back again Acts 1:11. The church will rule with a rod of iron in the coming kingdom Revelation 2:26-27. This is what we are being trained for now for Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:12 if we suffer, we shall reign. Psalm 2:9 Christ will rule with a rod of iron. Daniel 7:13 shows the son of man coming with the Ancient of Days who would be God the Father and he is given the kingdom and dominion over all people, nations, and languages, and they will serve him and it is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away. Verse 27 of the same chapter says the kingdom is under the whole heaven which means the physical earth. The disciples will rule the 12 tribes of Israel in the Kingdom.

4. Jesus message of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God was about the physical Kingdom of Heaven reign on earth and the Kingdom of God spiritual aspect was the way to enter the kingdom. Matthew 4:17 Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand was the physical kingdom. Luke 17:20 the kingdom of God comes without observation and Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you was the spiritual aspect for the jew was never told to seek the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved.

5. The jews did miss the suffering savior because of the physical kingdom being more prominent in their minds and thus no reason to repent. Isaiah 53 talks about the suffering savior from his growing up as a tender plant and as a root out of a dry ground to no beauty in him as despised and rejected of men and a man of sorrows and through his crucifixion wounded and bruised etc. The kingdom offer was valid but there is no scripture that says they would accept the Messiah. Also, Christ had the program of saving the world. Zechariah says 2/3 will be cutoff and 1/3 will come through the fire during the tribulation and they will repent and Isaiah 66:6-7 says Israel will become a nation born in one day when Zion travails and brings forth her children. They didn't become a nation in Jesus day for they were under the rulership of Rome and Jesus predicted their fall which was in A.D. 70 and they were never a nation after that until 1948 and they are still backslidden and out of covenant with God. They will return for their gifts and callings are without repentance according to Paul in Romans 11:29. He is talking about Israel coming back to God when the fulness of the gentiles is up and that has not happened yet but it will eventually. Verse 27 is the covenant when God shall take away their sins. This agrees with Hebrews 8:7-13 of the new covenant of the laws written in their hearts as a nation. The new covenant was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-32 and they rejected his ministry and call and they could not enter in the physical kingdom because of it and that is when he started telling his disciples more about his death and resurrection. So the new covenant happened at Calvary but the jewish nation rejected it and will not accept the new covenant until the end of the tribulation when their national light will almost be snuffed out and Christ has to come back to save them and they will look on the one whom they pierced Revelation 1:9 and they will believe Hebrews 8:10-12.

6. Christ is coming back to earth to rule the nations with his saints and angels and restore the physical earth and rid sin of all rebellion and death.
7. All creation is groaning because the land was said to be sinning in conjunction with Israel sinning when they are out of covenant. The physical earthly curse must be lifted and the kingdoms of this world must become Christ. Read Isaiah that talks about the lamb laying down with the lion and Joel with the early and latter rain of the agriculture flourishing because the curse has been lifted.

8. The Abrahamic covenant for Israel is specifically for the land God promised them and for the generations of people being blessed over all the earth. Read Genesis 15.

9. The Davidic Kingdom found in Isaiah 9:6-7 is an everlasting kingdom which Messiah will have the government upon his shoulders. So you have no ground to stay on about there being no political kingdom in the future that Christ will reside over. Christ will rule with a rod of iron and those who disobey will be punished accordingly. However, not all in the millennial kingdom will be saved but as long as they or they offspring obey the civil law they can live in the kingdom and they will be the ones who will be deceived by Satan in Revelation 20 in the four quarters of the earth; Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle; but God will destroy them with fire from Heaven. This millennial kingdom which is for a 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-7) is about the political kingdom of Peace because Satan will bound for a thousand years and verse 4 talks about thrones and judgement given to the saints and how they will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. When the 1000 years is up then the sinners will be resurrected and judged and Satan will be loosed to deceive right before that to deceive the nations in one final attempt to overthrow God. He will lose.

10 There is no valid logic or reason to believe that the 1000 years is symbolic for a day. The context does not call for and the wording does not allow for it.

11. Jesus saying his kingdom was not of this world was true in that context. John 18:35 Pilate ask Jesus what he had done that the chief priest and his own nation had delivered him up for judgement. Jesus answered in verse 36: My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the the jews: BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE. Jesus didn't deny he was born to be a king in the next verse when Pilate asked him if he was a king. However, it was not time for him to be King in the physical sense on earth. But if you will read Revelation 19:11-15 he will come out of Heaven with his saints; as King of Kings and Lord of Lords Revelation 19:16.

12. It takes understanding proper hermeneutics and reconciling the scriptures together properly so they harmonize instead of contradict each other. Jerry Kelso

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

Thank you for your response!

Rev. 20:4 is the verse used by premillennialists to support their teaching of a future physical earthly and political reign of a militant Christ, hence that is the reason I used it.

I promise you that I have taken the entire Bible under consideration to draw my conclusion.

Neither Jesus or any of His apostles taught about a future physical, earthly, political reign with a militant Christ.

As a matter of fact, the kingdom Jesus spoke of was spiritual by nature, not physical.

One must rely on his own private interpretation of OT prophesy and John's Revelation in order to draw the conclusion of a future physical, earthly, political kingdom.

All one needs to do is recognize the number and variety of these interpretations so-called Bible teachers promote. Turn on any one of the religious channels, and you will hear a plethora of what these prophecies supposedly mean.

Yet, we know that God is not the author of confusion!

In the NT alone, the word kingdom appears 63 times. Not once do any of the 63 occurrences say there will be a physical, earthly political kingdom with a militant Jesus.

With all due respect, I suggest that you or anyone reading this post read, in context, all 63 occurences of "kingdom" in the NT. When you finish with that, do the same with the OT. If memory serves me correctly, there are two Hebrew words for kingdom in the OT. I believe one occurs 117 times. The other can be found 57 times. It's a very interesting study, especially if you go into it without preconceived ideas. It was a real eye opener for me.

Blessings,

Katie

Good points! Yes is it a spiritual kingdom.

The Coming of the Kingdom Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20-21)

 

[jerry kelso]

Good points! Yes is it a spiritual kingdom.

The Coming of the Kingdom Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20-21)

reformed lutheran,

1. You need to read my post above and you will find that there is a coming millennial kingdom that will be political in the kingdom of peace forever with the 1st 1000 years having Christ rule with a rod of iron with his saints and its purpose is to rid sin and rebellion and bring the physical earth and spiritual earth back into complete harmony with the universal kingdom of God physical and spiritual.

2. The kingdom now for the most part is spiritual and Christ kingdom now is in heaven and it goes throughout the universe and to the earth. The expression Kingdom of Heaven that John and Jesus preached in about the spiritual rule from the heavens and the physical rule on this earth. The spiritual aspect was given at calvary but the physical rule of the kingdoms on earth will not be until the tribulation ends when the kingdoms of the world become Christ. The reason for the physical rule of Christ is restoration of all things, both creation and the governments of this world being under the theocracy of Christ for the government will be upon his shoulders. Isaiah 9:6-7.

3. One has to understand the Abrahamic Covenant and the Davidic Covenant and the Nation of Israel and the churches role in the kingdom and the plan of redemption which includes the restoration of all things starting with the millennial kingdom and the Kingdom of God All in All. Jerry kelso

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

reformed lutheran,

1. You need to read my post above and you will find that there is a coming millennial kingdom that will be political in the kingdom of peace forever with the 1st 1000 years having Christ rule with a rod of iron with his saints and its purpose is to rid sin and rebellion and bring the physical earth and spiritual earth back into complete harmony with the universal kingdom of God physical and spiritual.

2. The kingdom now for the most part is spiritual and Christ kingdom now is in heaven and it goes throughout the universe and to the earth. The expression Kingdom of Heaven that John and Jesus preached in about the spiritual rule from the heavens and the physical rule on this earth. The spiritual aspect was given at calvary but the physical rule of the kingdoms on earth will not be until the tribulation ends when the kingdoms of the world become Christ. The reason for the physical rule of Christ is restoration of all things, both creation and the governments of this world being under the theocracy of Christ for the government will be upon his shoulders. Isaiah 9:6-7.

3. One has to understand the Abrahamic Covenant and the Davidic Covenant and the Nation of Israel and the churches role in the kingdom and the plan of redemption which includes the restoration of all things starting with the millennial kingdom and the Kingdom of God All in All. Jerry kelso

Nah, I've read it all before, back when I was a dispensational some 15 years ago, then that dispensational ism lead me into the messianic movement.. I know all the arguments,, thankfully I was set free from such carnal and worldly ideas and religion and my eyes were open to the spirt.

 

[ScottA]

Revelation 20:4 says,

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This passage says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem. Those that teach this are duty-bound to prove their doctrine with scripture.

Did you know that the phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, the doctrine is prevalent among so many denominations.

Where does this passage mention Christ's second coming?

Where does it mention a reign on earth?

Where does it mention Christ on earth?

Those who believe in a future earthly reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual Kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical Kingdom.

The truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity. We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives, for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now, whether we choose to recognize it or not.

THANK YOU!

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

The man of sin will say otherwise, but you have spoken the truth.

 

[ScottA]

katie,

1. I am sorry but you are way off base about the physical kingdom and do not understand the redemptive plan of God concerning the restoration of all things physical and spiritual.

2. I am not sure of what your motive is for not believing in a physical kingdom but I can say with full assurance of the historical record in the word that Christ will come back in reality to set up an earthly kingdom known as the millennial kingdom.

3. The Abrahamic and the Davidic covenants are forever and involve spiritual promises and physical promises concerning land and earth as a whole. It concerns Israel as a nation and the church as an entity as well.
Israel will be at the head of the nations in the millennial kingdom Isaiah 2:2-4. They rejected Jesus message the first time (Matthew 23:37-39) and this is the reason for his coming back again Acts 1:11. The church will rule with a rod of iron in the coming kingdom Revelation 2:26-27. This is what we are being trained for now for Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:12 if we suffer, we shall reign. Psalm 2:9 Christ will rule with a rod of iron. Daniel 7:13 shows the son of man coming with the Ancient of Days who would be God the Father and he is given the kingdom and dominion over all people, nations, and languages, and they will serve him and it is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away. Verse 27 of the same chapter says the kingdom is under the whole heaven which means the physical earth. The disciples will rule the 12 tribes of Israel in the Kingdom.

4. Jesus message of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God was about the physical Kingdom of Heaven reign on earth and the Kingdom of God spiritual aspect was the way to enter the kingdom. Matthew 4:17 Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand was the physical kingdom. Luke 17:20 the kingdom of God comes without observation and Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you was the spiritual aspect for the jew was never told to seek the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved.

5. The jews did miss the suffering savior because of the physical kingdom being more prominent in their minds and thus no reason to repent. Isaiah 53 talks about the suffering savior from his growing up as a tender plant and as a root out of a dry ground to no beauty in him as despised and rejected of men and a man of sorrows and through his crucifixion wounded and bruised etc. The kingdom offer was valid but there is no scripture that says they would accept the Messiah. Also, Christ had the program of saving the world. Zechariah says 2/3 will be cutoff and 1/3 will come through the fire during the tribulation and they will repent and Isaiah 66:6-7 says Israel will become a nation born in one day when Zion travails and brings forth her children. They didn't become a nation in Jesus day for they were under the rulership of Rome and Jesus predicted their fall which was in A.D. 70 and they were never a nation after that until 1948 and they are still backslidden and out of covenant with God. They will return for their gifts and callings are without repentance according to Paul in Romans 11:29. He is talking about Israel coming back to God when the fulness of the gentiles is up and that has not happened yet but it will eventually. Verse 27 is the covenant when God shall take away their sins. This agrees with Hebrews 8:7-13 of the new covenant of the laws written in their hearts as a nation. The new covenant was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-32 and they rejected his ministry and call and they could not enter in the physical kingdom because of it and that is when he started telling his disciples more about his death and resurrection. So the new covenant happened at Calvary but the jewish nation rejected it and will not accept the new covenant until the end of the tribulation when their national light will almost be snuffed out and Christ has to come back to save them and they will look on the one whom they pierced Revelation 1:9 and they will believe Hebrews 8:10-12.

6. Christ is coming back to earth to rule the nations with his saints and angels and restore the physical earth and rid sin of all rebellion and death.
7. All creation is groaning because the land was said to be sinning in conjunction with Israel sinning when they are out of covenant. The physical earthly curse must be lifted and the kingdoms of this world must become Christ. Read Isaiah that talks about the lamb laying down with the lion and Joel with the early and latter rain of the agriculture flourishing because the curse has been lifted.

8. The Abrahamic covenant for Israel is specifically for the land God promised them and for the generations of people being blessed over all the earth. Read Genesis 15.

9. The Davidic Kingdom found in Isaiah 9:6-7 is an everlasting kingdom which Messiah will have the government upon his shoulders. So you have no ground to stay on about there being no political kingdom in the future that Christ will reside over. Christ will rule with a rod of iron and those who disobey will be punished accordingly. However, not all in the millennial kingdom will be saved but as long as they or they offspring obey the civil law they can live in the kingdom and they will be the ones who will be deceived by Satan in Revelation 20 in the four quarters of the earth; Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle; but God will destroy them with fire from Heaven. This millennial kingdom which is for a 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-7) is about the political kingdom of Peace because Satan will bound for a thousand years and verse 4 talks about thrones and judgement given to the saints and how they will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. When the 1000 years is up then the sinners will be resurrected and judged and Satan will be loosed to deceive right before that to deceive the nations in one final attempt to overthrow God. He will lose.

10 There is no valid logic or reason to believe that the 1000 years is symbolic for a day. The context does not call for and the wording does not allow for it.

11. Jesus saying his kingdom was not of this world was true in that context. John 18:35 Pilate ask Jesus what he had done that the chief priest and his own nation had delivered him up for judgement. Jesus answered in verse 36: My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the the jews: BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE. Jesus didn't deny he was born to be a king in the next verse when Pilate asked him if he was a king. However, it was not time for him to be King in the physical sense on earth. But if you will read Revelation 19:11-15 he will come out of Heaven with his saints; as King of Kings and Lord of Lords Revelation 19:16.

12. It takes understanding proper hermeneutics and reconciling the scriptures together properly so they harmonize instead of contradict each other. Jerry Kelso

The world is passing away. The new heaven and earth are not fixed or healed or even glorified, but are new, and are of the kingdom of God, whom is spirit. Flesh and blood inherit nothing.

As for the scriptures that seem to say different: God has made it clear He would not speak except in parables. It is all parables, every word.

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

The world is passing away. The new heaven and earth are not fixed or healed or even glorified, but are new, and are of the kingdom of God, whom is spirit. Flesh and blood inherit nothing.

As for the scriptures that seem to say different: God has made it clear He would not speak except in parables. It is all parables, every word.

The new heaven and new earth are here, now, in all it's glory for all who are born of the spirit to come and go and move and have our being and existence in.. Those who are of the flesh cannot see, therefore they await a fleshly kingdom

 

[ScottA]

The new heaven and new earth are here, now, in all it's glory for all who are born of the spirit to come and go and move and have our being and existence in.. Those who are of the flesh cannot see, therefore they await a fleshly kingdom

Amen! It is finished.

 

[katiemygirl]

katie,

1. I am sorry but you are way off base about the physical kingdom and do not understand the redemptive plan of God concerning the restoration of all things physical and spiritual.

2. I am not sure of what your motive is for not believing in a physical kingdom but I can say with full assurance of the historical record in the word that Christ will come back in reality to set up an earthly kingdom known as the millennial kingdom.

3. The Abrahamic and the Davidic covenants are forever and involve spiritual promises and physical promises concerning land and earth as a whole. It concerns Israel as a nation and the church as an entity as well.
Israel will be at the head of the nations in the millennial kingdom Isaiah 2:2-4. They rejected Jesus message the first time (Matthew 23:37-39) and this is the reason for his coming back again Acts 1:11. The church will rule with a rod of iron in the coming kingdom Revelation 2:26-27. This is what we are being trained for now for Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:12 if we suffer, we shall reign. Psalm 2:9 Christ will rule with a rod of iron. Daniel 7:13 shows the son of man coming with the Ancient of Days who would be God the Father and he is given the kingdom and dominion over all people, nations, and languages, and they will serve him and it is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away. Verse 27 of the same chapter says the kingdom is under the whole heaven which means the physical earth. The disciples will rule the 12 tribes of Israel in the Kingdom.

4. Jesus message of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God was about the physical Kingdom of Heaven reign on earth and the Kingdom of God spiritual aspect was the way to enter the kingdom. Matthew 4:17 Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand was the physical kingdom. Luke 17:20 the kingdom of God comes without observation and Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you was the spiritual aspect for the jew was never told to seek the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved.

5. The jews did miss the suffering savior because of the physical kingdom being more prominent in their minds and thus no reason to repent. Isaiah 53 talks about the suffering savior from his growing up as a tender plant and as a root out of a dry ground to no beauty in him as despised and rejected of men and a man of sorrows and through his crucifixion wounded and bruised etc. The kingdom offer was valid but there is no scripture that says they would accept the Messiah. Also, Christ had the program of saving the world. Zechariah says 2/3 will be cutoff and 1/3 will come through the fire during the tribulation and they will repent and Isaiah 66:6-7 says Israel will become a nation born in one day when Zion travails and brings forth her children. They didn't become a nation in Jesus day for they were under the rulership of Rome and Jesus predicted their fall which was in A.D. 70 and they were never a nation after that until 1948 and they are still backslidden and out of covenant with God. They will return for their gifts and callings are without repentance according to Paul in Romans 11:29. He is talking about Israel coming back to God when the fulness of the gentiles is up and that has not happened yet but it will eventually. Verse 27 is the covenant when God shall take away their sins. This agrees with Hebrews 8:7-13 of the new covenant of the laws written in their hearts as a nation. The new covenant was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-32 and they rejected his ministry and call and they could not enter in the physical kingdom because of it and that is when he started telling his disciples more about his death and resurrection. So the new covenant happened at Calvary but the jewish nation rejected it and will not accept the new covenant until the end of the tribulation when their national light will almost be snuffed out and Christ has to come back to save them and they will look on the one whom they pierced Revelation 1:9 and they will believe Hebrews 8:10-12.

6. Christ is coming back to earth to rule the nations with his saints and angels and restore the physical earth and rid sin of all rebellion and death.
7. All creation is groaning because the land was said to be sinning in conjunction with Israel sinning when they are out of covenant. The physical earthly curse must be lifted and the kingdoms of this world must become Christ. Read Isaiah that talks about the lamb laying down with the lion and Joel with the early and latter rain of the agriculture flourishing because the curse has been lifted.

8. The Abrahamic covenant for Israel is specifically for the land God promised them and for the generations of people being blessed over all the earth. Read Genesis 15.

9. The Davidic Kingdom found in Isaiah 9:6-7 is an everlasting kingdom which Messiah will have the government upon his shoulders. So you have no ground to stay on about there being no political kingdom in the future that Christ will reside over. Christ will rule with a rod of iron and those who disobey will be punished accordingly. However, not all in the millennial kingdom will be saved but as long as they or they offspring obey the civil law they can live in the kingdom and they will be the ones who will be deceived by Satan in Revelation 20 in the four quarters of the earth; Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle; but God will destroy them with fire from Heaven. This millennial kingdom which is for a 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-7) is about the political kingdom of Peace because Satan will bound for a thousand years and verse 4 talks about thrones and judgement given to the saints and how they will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. When the 1000 years is up then the sinners will be resurrected and judged and Satan will be loosed to deceive right before that to deceive the nations in one final attempt to overthrow God. He will lose.

10 There is no valid logic or reason to believe that the 1000 years is symbolic for a day. The context does not call for and the wording does not allow for it.

11. Jesus saying his kingdom was not of this world was true in that context. John 18:35 Pilate ask Jesus what he had done that the chief priest and his own nation had delivered him up for judgement. Jesus answered in verse 36: My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the the jews: BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE. Jesus didn't deny he was born to be a king in the next verse when Pilate asked him if he was a king. However, it was not time for him to be King in the physical sense on earth. But if you will read Revelation 19:11-15 he will come out of Heaven with his saints; as King of Kings and Lord of Lords Revelation 19:16.

12. It takes understanding proper hermeneutics and reconciling the scriptures together properly so they harmonize instead of contradict each other. Jerry Kelso

Hi Jerry,

Thank you for your response. You have raised many points, far too many for me to address in one post.

I'd like to deal here with your point # 8. I assure you that I have read Genesis 15 many times.

What does the Bible say? The promise made to Abraham was basically threefold.

1. God would make His descendants into a great nation.

2. He would give them the land of Canaan in which to dwell.

3. He would bless all nations with the birth of the Savior through Abraham’s seed.

I'm sure we can agree on the above.

The promise is first found in Genesis 12:2-4. It is found again in 17:7-8.

In chapter 15, God told Abraham that they would not occupy the land until after a period of four hundred years of servitude in a strange land. In the fourth generation, they would be brought into Canaan.

Joseph and his family were in bondage for 430 years (Ex. 12:40), and under Moses, they were led out of slavery just as God promised.

Moses died, and under the leadership of Joshua, they crossed the Jordan and possessed the land. Joshua, in 21:43-45 declared his mission accomplished. God fulfilled His land promise to Abraham. Pay special attention to verse 45.

43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hands. 45 Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.

Later, Jeremiah prophesied that God would send Nebuchadnezzar to destroy them, and the whole land would be desolate for 70 years. Then God would return them to the land (Jeremiah 25:4-14).

In II Chronicles 36:22-23, Israel was returned to the land. The city and temple were rebuilt. God’s promises and prophesies had been fulfilled. God fulfilled every Old Testament promise and prophesy regarding possession of the land.

The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah and crucified Him. They paid for it with the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus, in Matthew 21:33-46, said the kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to others.

God’s Israel is no longer a fleshly nation but a spiritual one. In the OT, the Jews were His chosen people, but in the NT, the church (kingdom) is the chosen people of God, purchased with the blood of Jesus (Acts 20:28). The Israel of today is not of Abraham’s seed. It is of Abraham’s faith (Acts 26:6-7).

Blessings,
Katie

 

[katiemygirl]

Nah, I've read it all before, back when I was a dispensational some 15 years ago, then that dispensational ism lead me into the messianic movement.. I know all the arguments,, thankfully I was set free from such carnal and worldly ideas and religion and my eyes were open to the spirt.

Hi RL,
Could you share what it was that caused you to see that dispensationalism was incorrect doctrine? Thank you.
Blessings,
Katie

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

Hi RL,
Could you share what it was that caused you to see that dispensationalism was incorrect doctrine? Thank you.
Blessings,
Katie

vigorously studying the writings of Paul,, He was a devout jew/pharisee and if there was anyone who would have believed in a carnal fleshly new covenant kingdom of Israel , then it would have been him. But on the contrary he teaches over and over again the hope of Israel is all found in the spiritual blessing that came in Christ and that came with the new covenant.

How the fleshly promises to Israel of old were a 'type' but the heavenly and spiritual truths that came in christ was the 'anti-type'.. the shadow was for a time, the substance is eternal and remains forever.

 

[katiemygirl]

vigorously studying the writings of Paul,, He was a devout jew/pharisee and if there was anyone who would have believed in a carnal fleshly new covenant kingdom of Israel , then it would have been him. But on the contrary he teaches over and over again the hope of Israel is all found in the spiritual blessing that came in Christ and that came with the new covenant.

How the fleshly promises to Israel of old were a 'type' but the heavenly and spiritual truths that came in christ was the 'anti-type'.. the shadow was for a time, the substance is eternal and remains forever.

Very well stated. Thank you for sharing!

 

[jerry kelso]

Hi Jerry,

Thank you for your response. You have raised many points, far too many for me to address in one post.

I'd like to deal here with your point # 8. I assure you that I have read Genesis 15 many times.

What does the Bible say? The promise made to Abraham was basically threefold.

1. God would make His descendants into a great nation.

2. He would give them the land of Canaan in which to dwell.

3. He would bless all nations with the birth of the Savior through Abraham’s seed.

I'm sure we can agree on the above.

The promise is first found in Genesis 12:2-4. It is found again in 17:7-8.

In chapter 15, God told Abraham that they would not occupy the land until after a period of four hundred years of servitude in a strange land. In the fourth generation, they would be brought into Canaan.

Joseph and his family were in bondage for 430 years (Ex. 12:40), and under Moses, they were led out of slavery just as God promised.

Moses died, and under the leadership of Joshua, they crossed the Jordan and possessed the land. Joshua, in 21:43-45 declared his mission accomplished. God fulfilled His land promise to Abraham. Pay special attention to verse 45.

43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hands. 45 Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.

Later, Jeremiah prophesied that God would send Nebuchadnezzar to destroy them, and the whole land would be desolate for 70 years. Then God would return them to the land (Jeremiah 25:4-14).

In II Chronicles 36:22-23, Israel was returned to the land. The city and temple were rebuilt. God’s promises and prophesies had been fulfilled. God fulfilled every Old Testament promise and prophesy regarding possession of the land.

The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah and crucified Him. They paid for it with the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus, in Matthew 21:33-46, said the kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to others.

God’s Israel is no longer a fleshly nation but a spiritual one. In the OT, the Jews were His chosen people, but in the NT, the church (kingdom) is the chosen people of God, purchased with the blood of Jesus (Acts 20:28). The Israel of today is not of Abraham’s seed. It is of Abraham’s faith (Acts 26:6-7).

Blessings,
Katie

katie,

1. Matthew 21:33-46; The parables were basically about the rejection of Christ by Israel, even the prodigal son etc.
What was taken away was not the earthly kingdom position of ruling over the nations in the millennial kingdom. It was the spiritual aspect of the Kingdom of God in verse 43. It would be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

2. The Kingdom of God in this verse is as such as that came without observation in Luke 17:20 and Matthew 6:33; seek ye first the Kingdom of God. The jews were never to seek the physical KoH to receive salvation but the KoG.

3. The Kingdom of Heaven was never a message by Paul to the gentiles only the Kingdom of God translated in God's dear son. The early church which was Jewish and before Peter's vision of the clean and the unclean and Paul going to the gentiles had the earthly kingdom in mindset even though Christ said it was not for them to know the times and seasons for only God the father knew that. The signs of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost was a sign of Joel's for the coming of the kingdom but not in totality.
Paul in Romans 9-11 shows that Christ had not forgotten the nation of Israel's calling and the church would be the one to make them jealous in order to come back to God for they can be grafted in again and they will be when the time of the gentiles is up for their gifts and callings are without repentance and sure and they will happen eventually.

4. In Acts 1:11 the angels says that Christ will come back as he left that day and this is in connection with the second coming when all will see him including those who had pierced him which were the jews.
Israel has an earthly calling and to say Israel not is only spiritual to do away with the calling of the nation is not the whole picture.

5. Most use the account in Romans 2 about a jew is not really a jew except inwardly. Paul was not doing away with the calling of Israel otherwise he wouldn't have written Romans 9-11. A true jew was one who was obedient to God and saved through the blood of Christ because that was the initiative to gain entrance to the physical KoH (Matthews 4:17) Repent for the KoH is at hand. The physical KoH was offered and the only way to gain entrance was through the KoG spiritual aspect. (Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20).

6. Using the term spiritual Israel to the church is not really scriptural for Paul was talking to jews of what qualified a true jew to God for the spiritual aspect is most important.
The only reason to use that term for the church is to show the spiritual aspect is what is most important. Other than that it is used by those who believe in replacement theology; whether they want to admit it or not or understand what that is, to prove that the Church is the one to be at the head of the nations and fulfill the earthly calling of Israel.

7. When people misunderstand Israel's earthly calling and try to put the church into that context across the board they rob Israel's covenant blessing in the future. Because Jesus taught the Mosaic law the church mixing law and grace without realizing it stays defeated and it causes the struggle in their daily relationship and they do not rise to fulfilling the better promises of the New covenant and what the church purpose is on earth.

8. All these contexts have to be understood in the proper stewardships God gave that dealt with the covenant that they were under at the time and how it effects the big picture. The gospels are much misunderstood because they are rendered as new covenant theology and misunderstand the prophecies and the role of the Messiah and gradual revelation. They also are not understood as being under the Mosaic law and their earthly calling and how they were backslidden in their covenant and had to come back to God in their covenant of law in order to be blessed. Replacement theology is dangerous and it is not rightly dividing the word and causes the plan of God to be thwarted in the overall picture etc. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Nah, I've read it all before, back when I was a dispensational some 15 years ago, then that dispensational ism lead me into the messianic movement.. I know all the arguments,, thankfully I was set free from such carnal and worldly ideas and religion and my eyes were open to the spirt.

reformed lutheran,
Why don't we discuss what a dispensation is and the purpose of it. You need to tell me why you think it dispensational thought is carnal and worldly and mere religion and what you believe or gravitate to. Is it reformed theology and the covenants or something else? Let me know because you can make accusations and not prove anything. From all that I have seen in your posts you are not correct in your rendering on such things as Israel's callings in the millennial kingdom which is separate from the church. I'll be waiting. Jerry Kelso

 

[katiemygirl]

katie,

1. Matthew 21:33-46; The parables were basically about the rejection of Christ by Israel, even the prodigal son etc.
What was taken away was not the earthly kingdom position of ruling over the nations in the millennial kingdom. It was the spiritual aspect of the Kingdom of God in verse 43. It would be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

2. The Kingdom of God in this verse is as such as that came without observation in Luke 17:20 and Matthew 6:33; seek ye first the Kingdom of God. The jews were never to seek the physical KoH to receive salvation but the KoG.

3. The Kingdom of Heaven was never a message by Paul to the gentiles only the Kingdom of God translated in God's dear son. The early church which was Jewish and before Peter's vision of the clean and the unclean and Paul going to the gentiles had the earthly kingdom in mindset even though Christ said it was not for them to know the times and seasons for only God the father knew that. The signs of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost was a sign of Joel's for the coming of the kingdom but not in totality.
Paul in Romans 9-11 shows that Christ had not forgotten the nation of Israel's calling and the church would be the one to make them jealous in order to come back to God for they can be grafted in again and they will be when the time of the gentiles is up for their gifts and callings are without repentance and sure and they will happen eventually.

4. In Acts 1:11 the angels says that Christ will come back as he left that day and this is in connection with the second coming when all will see him including those who had pierced him which were the jews.
Israel has an earthly calling and to say Israel not is only spiritual to do away with the calling of the nation is not the whole picture.

5. Most use the account in Romans 2 about a jew is not really a jew except inwardly. Paul was not doing away with the calling of Israel otherwise he wouldn't have written Romans 9-11. A true jew was one who was obedient to God and saved through the blood of Christ because that was the initiative to gain entrance to the physical KoH (Matthews 4:17) Repent for the KoH is at hand. The physical KoH was offered and the only way to gain entrance was through the KoG spiritual aspect. (Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20).

6. Using the term spiritual Israel to the church is not really scriptural for Paul was talking to jews of what qualified a true jew to God for the spiritual aspect is most important.
The only reason to use that term for the church is to show the spiritual aspect is what is most important. Other than that it is used by those who believe in replacement theology; whether they want to admit it or not or understand what that is, to prove that the Church is the one to be at the head of the nations and fulfill the earthly calling of Israel.

7. When people misunderstand Israel's earthly calling and try to put the church into that context across the board they rob Israel's covenant blessing in the future. Because Jesus taught the Mosaic law the church mixing law and grace without realizing it stays defeated and it causes the struggle in their daily relationship and they do not rise to fulfilling the better promises of the New covenant and what the church purpose is on earth.

8. All these contexts have to be understood in the proper stewardships God gave that dealt with the covenant that they were under at the time and how it effects the big picture. The gospels are much misunderstood because they are rendered as new covenant theology and misunderstand the prophecies and the role of the Messiah and gradual revelation. They also are not understood as being under the Mosaic law and their earthly calling and how they were backslidden in their covenant and had to come back to God in their covenant of law in order to be blessed. Replacement theology is dangerous and it is not rightly dividing the word and causes the plan of God to be thwarted in the overall picture etc. Jerry Kelso

Jerry,

It is impossible for me to discuss/debate all of the points you try to make. I don't have time. Please limit your responses to one point at a time..

In my last post to you, I focused on one point only, and that was to show that God has already fulfilled His land promise to Israel. You ignored my point. You didn't refute it, so I will take that to mean you agree with me. That is great!

You said it is not Biblical to call the church "spiritual Israel" It's true that the actual term is not found in the Bible, but then, as my OP states, "Nowhere in Revelation 20:4 does it say that Jesus is coming to this earth to establish a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem." The phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture. Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, you use these terms. How is my use of the term "spiritual Israel" different than your use of the terms I mentioned above?

I believe the Bible when it says Christians are the true Jews today.

Romans 2:28-29
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

"for we [Christians] are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,... " (Phil. 3:3)

"For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:15-16)

Surely you don't think the "Israel of God," in the above passage, is physical Israel? So then, who is the Israel of God if it is not christians, the church of the living God?

The peace in Phil. 3:3 is for those who walk according to Christ so it CANNOT refer to fleshly/physical Israel that rejects Christ.


The church is true Israel and Christians are God's true "Jews" today.

Blessings,

Katie

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

It is impossible for me to discuss/debate all of the points you try to make. I don't have time. Please limit your responses to one point at a time..

In my last post to you, I focused on one point only, and that was to show that God has already fulfilled His land promise to Israel. You ignored my point. You didn't refute it, so I will take that to mean you agree with me. That is great!

You said it is not Biblical to call the church "spiritual Israel" It's true that the actual term is not found in the Bible, but then, as my OP states, "Nowhere in Revelation 20:4 does it say that Jesus is coming to this earth to establish a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem." The phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture. Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, you use these terms. How is my use of the term "spiritual Israel" different than your use of the terms I mentioned above?

I believe the Bible when it says Christians are the true Jews today.

Romans 2:28-29
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

"for we [Christians] are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,... " (Phil. 3:3)

"For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel church of God." (Galatians 6:15-16)

Surely you don't think the "Israel of God," in the above passage, is physical Israel? So then, who is the Israel of God if it is not christians, the church of the living God?

The peace in Phil. 3:3 is for those who walk according to Christ so it CANNOT refer to fleshly/physical Israel that rejects Christ.


The church is true Israel and Christians are God's true "Jews" today.

Blessings,

katiemygirl,
1. Abraham was the beginning of the jewish nation and the Abrahamic covenant deals with the land. Genesis 15:5-7. Verses 13-14 talks about the affliction of 400 years in a strange land were the jewish nation under Egypt.
2. After Moses died, Joshua and Caleb led them into the promised land of Canaan. Then it goes on about making Abraham a great nation in Isaac his son instead of Ishmael and throughout the generations.
The promise to Abraham continues through the patriarchs and even today.
In Jesus day in the "Sermon on the Mount" Jesus said, Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. This inheriting the earth concerns the land in the Abrahamic Covenant. In Matthew 1 the geneologies of Abraham and David are given. This is to show how Jesus is a part of these lineages and to fulfill their covenant blessings.
David's throne started with Solomon and Solomon would build the house and 1 Kings 2 says there will always be a man on the throne if they obeyed. 1 Chronicles 17:11-13 talks about the Davidic throne forever. This is a literal rule that is based on spiritual obedience literally.
Luke 1:67, Zacharias prophesied about the horn of salvation spiritually and physically from their enemies who were the Romans at that time.
Israel was backslidden and had to repent in as a whole nation in order to gain entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven Reign.
The promise of the land has not been fully inherited and the kingdom throne has not been fulfilled yet.

2. Your second point about spiritual Israel is speaking of jews under the law and how they will be judged. The latter part of Romans 2:12,13. Verse 24 Paul was talking about the name of God being blasphemed among the Gentiles. This is because the judaizers in the early church were trying to get the gentiles to circumcise.
Physical circumcision gentiles were never under to begin with. Inwardly, spiritual is what marks a true christian whether jew or gentile either one. Spiritual circumcision is of the heart in verse 29.
I don't deny the spiritual circumcision but Paul wasn't trying to do away with the earthly calling of Israel because he explained this in Romans 9-11 and their gifts and callings are without repentance.
Galatians 6:16 has reference to Romans 2:29 and 9:6-8. He had christians of jews and gentiles and was talking about the spiritual aspect in verse 15. The wording can be distinguished by the word and is implied and considered literal jews that were Christians. Many also believe that the book of Galatians was originally a part of the book of Hebrews which was written specifically to the jews about the old and new covenant differences. The book of Galatians talks about the law and the new covenant as well.
Israel of God phrase would be an implication of a true jew and the spiritual aspect of the Romans 2.
I have no problem a christian being called spiritual Israel or a spiritual jew in the light of spiritual circumcision. However, this doesn't do away with Israel's calling and this is what is misunderstood and many believe this and teach this and this is not scriptural.
Also, you used the Kingdom of God taken away which I addressed as the spiritual aspect of the KoH and the Kingdom of God.
There are many other things to prove that Israel still has an earthly calling and it will be fulfilled and these need to be understood in the proper contexts and the reason why.
The land and the throne are the two most important promises in the covenants of Abraham and David. Jesus offered these two kingdoms and they were conditioned by obedience spiritually and instead they rejected him. Remember that this goes in line with 1 Kings 2.
Philippians 3:3 uses the word circumcision in the spiritual sense. In verse 5 Paul uses the physical circumcision as the stock of Israel. Spiritual circumcision doesn't change physical circumcision or vice versa.
Spiritual circumcision was before the church came along and it still doesn't have anything to do with proving Israel not being able to fulfill their covenants of Abraham and David. Israel's callings are eternal physically and spiritual.
Catholics and others try to take the grace component of Abraham and David and say that is all that is there will be and believe that the millennial kingdom is now which is not scriptural. This is why it is important to understand the difference between the millennial kingdom and the Kingdom of God all in all.
I have explained and answered your objection on the land and the spiritual Israel issue. I added about the throne because it is a part of the covenant with Israel and the land, Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. This was not a general statement and was not passed on to the church for we have an heavenly calling and we will also rule in the earthly reign in rulership positions but not as the head of nations as Israel will. I will stop here and suffice to say one has to reconcile all the scriptures together properly to harmonize the big picture. If one doesn't understand the big picture and try to prove in the details they will always get tunnel vision and come up with the wrong answer. Jerry kelso

 

[katiemygirl]

In Jesus day in the "Sermon on the Mount" Jesus said, Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. This inheriting the earth concerns the land in the Abrahamic Covenant.

The promise to Abraham concerning the land had been fulfilled long before Jesus gave His sermon on the mount. You continue to ignore Joshua 21:43-45.

43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hands. 45 Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.

Jesus was not saying the meek would literally inherit the earth (also translated land). Keep in mind that the land of Canaan was and is regarded as a type of heaven (Hebrews 3:16-4:10). Jesus is saying the meek would be received into the heavenly kingdom and receive blessings there.

1 Chronicles 17:11-13 talks about the Davidic throne forever. This is a literal rule that is based on spiritual obedience literally.

Jesus, King of Kings, Lord of Lords is reigning now and forever. His kingdom is here. Christians are His subjects. Jesus rules and reigns in the hearts of men.

The promise of the land has not been fully inherited and the kingdom throne has not been fulfilled yet.

Jesus has been seated on the throne of David, the throne of God, in heaven since the resurrection where he was given all rule and authority on heaven and earth. Mt 28:18-29

However, this doesn't do away with Israel's calling and this is what is misunderstood and many believe this and teach this and this is not scriptural.

There are many other things to prove that Israel still has an earthly calling and it will be fulfilled and these need to be understood in the proper contexts and the reason why.

Twice above, you used the phrase "Israel's earthly calling."

For the sake of clarification, could you explain in two or three sentences what you believe "Israel's earthly calling" is. I am not asking you to give supporting Scripture or lengthy details. I only want to understand what your position is.

Thanks, and may your day be blessed.

Katie