Rev 14:12, what does it mean?

[listed]

Until you notice 'the details' in the texts just quoted above --

let's see those details "again"


John 14You still don't show
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.

You still don't show anything from John supporting your thesis.

Jesus is giving a fool his required answer in Matthew 19. To say what you imply requires the ignoring of other passages. It also pits Jesus (God) against Himself.

 

[listed]

Indeed. I would suggest not doing that.

Doing what?

 

[bugkiller]

Indeed. I would suggest not doing that.

???

bugkiller

 

[klutedavid]

Whether spoken - such that Cain "commits sin" when he killed his brother - regardless of the fact there was "no stone with words on it" -- or written. Under the Old Covenant it is external.



Yes - both have the command to not take God's name in vain - but in one case the Word of God - the Commands of God are known yet merely external - and opposed to the nature of the sinner, while in the second case - the word of God is internal not merely external and so Paul shows us the contrast clearly in Romans 8:4-10 with the lost being at war with God's Law and the saints complying with it - having the Holy Spirit within them. The Holy Spirit is the author of Scripture - as it turns out.

New Covenant Jer 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:6-10 the same in OT and NT.

So then we may have some opportunity to read the Ten Commandments to an atheist - but as we saw in the news recently he is likely to just try and run over them with his car.



Truly a sharp "turn" in your question about the "New Covenant"

What happened???



Women in my church women not only sing during congregational singing, they also LEARN while in church as they hear the sermon.

Are you challenging this practice with 1 Cor 14?

If so -- then "read the details" in the chapter to find your mistake.

1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Do you agree this is inspired by God?

BTW nothing in the OT says that women cannot sing or speak in church. Rather Deborah a prophetess of God speaks not only the Word of God in the assembly - but judges all Israel. And the prophetess Anna speaks in the sanctuary - even before Christ has commissioned the disciples - while He is an infant.

"The context" is that they were not to be asking questions in the middle of the service and disrupting it - all over the congregation.

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Hello Bob.

If we are talking about church authority and church teaching, then a woman must be in submission. A woman is not permitted to exercise authority over any man, nor to be found teaching a man.

1 Timothy 2
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

Women can worship freely, as worship does not involve any aspect of authority or teaching in the church.

1 Corinthians 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

You need to pay closer attention to the scripture!

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

If we are talking about church authority and church teaching, then a woman must be in submission.

Paul reminds us that this is as stated in the LAW in the OT -- for example we find it in Genesis 3. I assume you are now embracing the LAW of the OT at this point.

Interesting.

So then we both agree that Deborah in the book of Judges - both a prophetess and also a judge of Israel - also fully complied with the Genesis 3 command... True or false?

BTW - very glad to see this effort on your part to affirm the LAW that Paul claims we find in the OT.

Did you ever answer this question?? Or are we still waiting??

1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Do you agree this is inspired by God?

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

 

[BobRyan]

It is very unreasonable to believe the Scripture is inspired by God and have conflict.

Indeed. I would suggest not doing that.

Doing what?

?? --

 

[1John2:4]

Indeed. I would suggest not doing that.

Happy Sabbath Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Happy Sabbath John !

 

[klutedavid]

Paul reminds us that this is as stated in the LAW in the OT -- for example we find it in Genesis 3. I assume you are now embracing the LAW of the OT at this point.

Interesting.

So then we both agree that Deborah in the book of Judges - both a prophetess and also a judge of Israel - also fully complied with the Genesis 3 command... True or false?

BTW - very glad to see this effort on your part to affirm the LAW that Paul claims we find in the OT.

Did you ever answer this question?? Or are we still waiting??

1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Do you agree this is inspired by God?

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Hello Bob.

Thanks for your reply.

Paul reminds us that this is as stated in the LAW in the OT -- for example we find it in Genesis 3. I assume you are now embracing the LAW of the OT at this point.

I never at any point let go of the law, though I am not under the law for I am a gentile.

Interesting.

Not really.

So then we both agree that Deborah in the book of Judges - both a prophetess and also a judge of Israel - also fully complied with the Genesis 3 command... True or false?

Of course it is true, but Deborah did not sit in the town gate as the other judges.

BTW - very glad to see this effort on your part to affirm the LAW that Paul claims we find in the OT.

Yes Paul often uses the shadow of the law, to highlight the teaching of the Lord.

In your previous post you did not comment on the following passage.

1 Timothy 2
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Do you agree this is inspired by God?

Yes but this is not what we are talking about.

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Once again, women must be submissive in the church, they have no authority over men in the church. This is not just concerned with the learning process, rather the church hierarchy does permit women in leadership roles, according to Paul.

1 Timothy 3
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife

1 Timothy 3
8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity...

 

[BobRyan]

Paul reminds us that this is as stated in the LAW in the OT -- for example we find it in Genesis 3. I assume you are now embracing the LAW of the OT at this point.

Interesting.

So then we both agree that Deborah in the book of Judges - both a prophetess and also a judge of Israel - also fully complied with the Genesis 3 command... True or false?

BTW - very glad to see this effort on your part to affirm the LAW that Paul claims we find in the OT.

Did you ever answer this question?? Or are we still waiting??

1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Do you agree this is inspired by God?

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Hello Bob.

Thanks for your reply.

I never at any point let go of the law, though I am not under the law for I am a gentile.

So then you "reject" this because it appeals to what the "LAW" says as being binding on the church??

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Then do you also reject - Ephesians 6:2? because it ALSO appeals to that OT unit of LAW?

2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

Notice in both cases the authority of the LAW is appealed to as enforcement for the text.

Or were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Yes but this is not what we are talking about.

You brought it up - as it turns out.

Women can worship freely, as worship does not involve any aspect of authority or teaching in the church.

1 Corinthians 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

You need to pay closer attention to the scripture!

Is this "you" bringing up 1 Cor 14?

Women in my church not only sing during congregational singing, they also LEARN while in church as they hear the sermon.

Are you challenging this practice with 1 Cor 14?

If so -- then "read the details" in the chapter to find your mistake.

1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Do you agree this is inspired by God?

So then we both agree that Deborah in the book of Judges - both a prophetess and also a judge of Israel - also fully complied with the Genesis 3 command... True or false?

in the NT we have this --

BTW nothing in the OT says that women cannot sing or speak in church. Rather Deborah a prophetess of God speaks not only the Word of God in the assembly - but judges all Israel. And the prophetess Anna speaks in the sanctuary - even before Christ has commissioned the disciples - while He is an infant.

Once again, women must be submissive in the church, they have no authority over men in the church. This is not just concerned with the learning process, rather the church hierarchy does permit women in leadership roles, according to Paul.

So then you suppose that the Bible condemns Anna and Deborah no matter that the Bible affirms them - or you suppose that they "lose liberty under the Gospel" and claim that they should be glad they are not living in the NT after the cross??

I think we are all aware of the fact that in many Christian churches the women in attendance outnumber the men.

You bring up the 1 Cor 14 that the LAW says this --

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Is this because you affirm the Law as Paul does in 1 Cor 14??

===========================

This thread is about Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"

 

[BobRyan]

This thread is about Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"

John 14
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Jesus is the one speaking the TEN Commandments - AND - the New Covenant

Hebrews 8:6-10
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Jesus said "God's Commandment" and "Moses said" and "Word of God" are terms that all apply to the Ten Commandments.

Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

 

[bugkiller]

John 14
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Jesus is the one speaking the TEN Commandments - AND - the New Covenant

Hebrews 8:6-10
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Jesus said "God's Commandment" and "Moses said" and "Word of God" are terms that all apply to the Ten Commandments.

Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Jesus affirms He kept the law. Jesus did not affirm we are to keep the law. See Jn 15:10 where Jesus conflicts and compares commandments.

Now what is really going on in Mat 19? Is Jesus going against known Scripture?

Since you are not able to condemn others into performance of the law, you must be preaching to the chior and condemning your self and other pro law folks.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Jesus said "God's Commandment" and "Moses said" and "Word of God" are terms that all apply to the Ten Commandments.

Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Jesus affirms He kept the law. Jesus did not affirm we are to keep the law.

I find your logic "illusive" given that it is a response to those texts.

 

[bugkiller]

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Jesus said "God's Commandment" and "Moses said" and "Word of God" are terms that all apply to the Ten Commandments.

Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”




I find your logic "illusive" given that it is a response to those texts.

Of course you do simply as a matter of course.

You still failed to discuss what is happening in Mat 19.

You can not ever condemn me with Mk 7 as you keep trying to do by wrongly applying the law which no Christian is obligated to.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Jesus said "God's Commandment" and "Moses said" and "Word of God" are terms that all apply to the Ten Commandments.

Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Jesus affirms He kept the law. Jesus did not affirm we are to keep the law.

I find your logic "illusive" given that it is a response to those texts.

Of course you do

Now see? Agreement on that point! (no matter other points of difference)

That was not so hard!

 

[bugkiller]

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Jesus said "God's Commandment" and "Moses said" and "Word of God" are terms that all apply to the Ten Commandments.

OK those are words found in the text. Now what about context?

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

Then there was a little break before the next person approached Him with his question. I do not believe this man was a sincere questioner given the exchange with the Pharisees just moment prior. Yeah I know you might question the amount of expired time. John presents it as one continuous engagement.

I can do without your condemnation attempts.

I find your logic "illusive" given that it is a response to those texts.

Sure as we do not have the same motive.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

God's Commandments include God's TEN Commandments (Obviously)

1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"

This thread is about Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"

John 14
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

The TEN Commandments -

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Jesus is the one speaking the TEN Commandments - AND - the New Covenant

Hebrews 8:6-10
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Jesus said "God's Commandment" and "Moses said" and "Word of God" are terms that all apply to the Ten Commandments.

Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Those who attempt to blame these texts on "SDAs" forget that in fact the majority of pro-sunday scholars affirm that the "Commandments of God" include God's TEN Commandments.

A Bible detail so incredibly obvious - BOTH sides admit to it. "It just does not GET any easier than this!"

(It took me about 75 seconds to see the light on this detail)

OK those are words found in the text. Now what about context?

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

I don't see how this is helping your argument.

 

[listed]

God's Commandments include God's TEN Commandments (Obviously)

I don't see how this is helping your argument.

Certainly, context has nothing to do with meaning.

 

[klutedavid]

Paul reminds us that this is as stated in the LAW in the OT -- for example we find it in Genesis 3. I assume you are now embracing the LAW of the OT at this point.

Interesting.

So then we both agree that Deborah in the book of Judges - both a prophetess and also a judge of Israel - also fully complied with the Genesis 3 command... True or false?

BTW - very glad to see this effort on your part to affirm the LAW that Paul claims we find in the OT.

Did you ever answer this question?? Or are we still waiting??

1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Do you agree this is inspired by God?

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.




So then you "reject" this because it appeals to what the "LAW" says as being binding on the church??

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Then do you also reject - Ephesians 6:2? because it ALSO appeals to that OT unit of LAW?

2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

Notice in both cases the authority of the LAW is appealed to as enforcement for the text.

Or were we simply "not supposed to notice"???



You brought it up - as it turns out.



Is this "you" bringing up 1 Cor 14?

Women in my church not only sing during congregational singing, they also LEARN while in church as they hear the sermon.

Are you challenging this practice with 1 Cor 14?

If so -- then "read the details" in the chapter to find your mistake.

1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Do you agree this is inspired by God?

So then we both agree that Deborah in the book of Judges - both a prophetess and also a judge of Israel - also fully complied with the Genesis 3 command... True or false?

in the NT we have this --

BTW nothing in the OT says that women cannot sing or speak in church. Rather Deborah a prophetess of God speaks not only the Word of God in the assembly - but judges all Israel. And the prophetess Anna speaks in the sanctuary - even before Christ has commissioned the disciples - while He is an infant.



So then you suppose that the Bible condemns Anna and Deborah no matter that the Bible affirms them - or you suppose that they "lose liberty under the Gospel" and claim that they should be glad they are not living in the NT after the cross??

I think we are all aware of the fact that in many Christian churches the women in attendance outnumber the men.

You bring up the 1 Cor 14 that the LAW says this --

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Is this because you affirm the Law as Paul does in 1 Cor 14??

===========================

This thread is about Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"

Hello Bob.

You may need to explain the following so that I can understand your point.

Paul reminds us that this is as stated in the LAW in the OT -- for example we find it in Genesis 3. I assume you are now embracing the LAW of the OT at this point.

So then we both agree that Deborah in the book of Judges - both a prophetess and also a judge of Israel - also fully complied with the Genesis 3 command... True or false?

I see the command to not eat the fruit as a one off command, one that only Adam and Eve could disobey. So I do not understand your fixation with Genesis 3.

1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
Do you agree this is inspired by God?

Of course and I accept all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and more. I do not follow the teaching, precepts, nor the traditions of men or churches.

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

This is a commandment, women are not permitted to exercise authority over men. They are not permitted to ask questions about what they are taught in church. The whole of creation places women in a subordinate position in church, this is how Paul sees this.

Though outside church women are equal in all things.

I never at any point let go of the law, though I am not under the law for I am a gentile. So then you "reject" this because it appeals to what the "LAW" says as being binding on the church??

You misunderstand the text, because your interpretation is confused. Paul can support a commandment by using the law in some instances. Though many commandments in the N.T. have no shadow legal law.

Then do you also reject - Ephesians 6:2? because it ALSO appeals to that OT unit of LAW?

We have discussed this before, you see the old covenant commandment, I use the context and use both of the verses, one and two. You cherry pick verses and I do not cherry pick.

2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise)

Ephesians 6
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

Paul gave the instruction and then Paul backs up the instruction by reference to the law. If you cherry pick verse two, then you make a mistake and misunderstand the apostle's teaching.

Notice in both cases the authority of the LAW is appealed to as enforcement for the text.

I certainly agree with your comment.

Or were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

We noticed, Paul is giving the commandments, the sayings of Jesus. Paul does not say that you should obey the ten commandments. What could be easier than Paul just saying, obey the ten commandments. We notice that Paul never mentions the phrase, 'the ten commandments', by this we know that you are wrong Bob.

Bob, you must deal with the verse below, must women be silent in church?

1 Timothy 2
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

A woman cannot exercise authority over a man in church. This is the commandment of God, will you obey this commandment of God or not?

This chapter two of Timothy designates the authority in the church, women are excluded. You can run but you cannot hide.

 

[bugkiller]

Hello Bob.

You may need to explain the following so that I can understand your point.

I see the command to not eat the fruit as a one off command, one that only Adam and Eve could disobey. So I do not understand your fixation with Genesis 3.

Of course and I accept all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and more. I do not follow the teaching, precepts, nor the traditions of men or churches.

This is a commandment, women are not permitted to exercise authority over men. They are not permitted to ask questions about what they are taught in church. The whole of creation places women in a subordinate position in church, this is how Paul sees this.

Though outside church women are equal in all things.

You misunderstand the text, because your interpretation is confused. Paul can support a commandment by using the law in some instances. Though many commandments in the N.T. have no shadow legal law.

We have discussed this before, you see the old covenant commandment, I use the context and use both of the verses, one and two. You cherry pick verses and I do not cherry pick.

Ephesians 6
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

Paul gave the instruction and then Paul backs up the instruction by reference to the law. If you cherry pick verse two, then you make a mistake and misunderstand the apostle's teaching.

I certainly agree with your comment.

We noticed, Paul is giving the commandments, the sayings of Jesus. Paul does not say that you should obey the ten commandments. What could be easier than Paul just saying, obey the ten commandments. We notice that Paul never mentions the phrase, 'the ten commandments', by this we know that you are wrong Bob.

Bob, you must deal with the verse below, must women be silent in church?

1 Timothy 2
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

A woman cannot exercise authority over a man in church. This is the commandment of God, will you obey this commandment of God or not?

This chapter two of Timothy designates the authority in the church, women are excluded. You can run but you cannot hide.

The way I see the verse is a woman is not to cause a disturbance in the worship service. I would also agree that a woman is not to teach a class generally to men or mixed company. I also mildly object to women worship leaders as they are called these days. Women teaching women and children is fine. I do not accept women pastors.

bugkiller