Return of Jesus and alien invasions!

[Postvieww]

Yup, I agree there is a chronological order, but understanding that order in real-time requires jumping back and forth within the text.



I think this is one of those tricky perspective issues. In this chapter Jesus rides down from Heaven to defeat the armies of man gathered against him. But the "bride of Christ" is there with him, celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb. Then, they go back down to Earth to fight the battle of Armageddon, for which the Kings of the Earth have been gathered together.

So, if Revelation 19 is describing the return of Jesus, then how is it that the saints are already there with him when he rides down on his white horse? No, I think the Revelation is describing the battle of Armageddon here. Revelation 16 shows the 6th angel pouring his vial, which somehow allows the kings of the earth to gather together against God. Gather against what? To fight against an invisible spirit? No. By this time New Jerusalem must have descended from Heaven, thus giving the leaders of the world both a physical target and the impetus to gather together to fight against it. Otherwise you've got the armies of the earth gathering on a field for no apparent reason which doesn't make any sense. There must be something physical and tangible which they can see to cause them to gather because that's just how humans are. Armies won't gather without a target. How will they know where to point their guns and rockets?

The 7th vial is "poured into the air", which is the battle of Armageddon itself, where Jesus destroys his enemies, though even then there is indication that there will mortals who survive the battle.



I think there is a misunderstanding here. My understanding of the time line is that Jesus returns at the last trumpet. His return is accompanied by New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven. The saints go up to celebrate the marriage supper of the lamb while the vials of wrath are being poured out on a disobedient world below. The last vial is the battle of Armageddon, which shows Jesus and his saints riding down to fight the battle, but "down" from where? I suggest they are in the New Jerusalem at this time, for the marriage supper of the Lamb, as it hovers over the surface of the Earth while the vials are being poured out. Daniel 12:11-12 describes a 45 day period beyond the length of the final 7 year period, which I suggest is the time at which the vials are being poured out

The armies are defeated and the false prophet/Beast are locked away, thus starting the 1000 year reign. Revelation 21 gives a lengthy description of New Jerusalem and near the end describes the "kings of the Earth" bringing their glory into it. New Jerusalem is there, on the Earth, for the 1000 year reign.



I don't understand the leap which you see in my reasoning, but I'll try to re-clarify my position. The issue was one of timing regardless of the chapter and verse numbers next to the information, meaning that something which happens in chapter 21 does not necessarily describe an event which comes after chapter 11. The chapter numbers and verses are helpful for organizing the information into a system for easy reference but they are superfluous to the content of the information.

Both Revelation 11 and Revelation 21 describe God establishing authority over the world.

REV 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

REV 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

These are references to the same event, but from different perspectives. Otherwise, IF you say that, in real time, the events of chapter 21 (the coming down of New Jerusalem) comes AFTER Revelation 11 (the sounding of the 7th trumpet and the return of Jesus) then you must conclude that there are two separate instances where God establishes his final authority over the earth, which makes no sense.

No, New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven along with the Return of Jesus, both of which unequivocally show the establishment of God's kingdom and authority on the earth for the next 1000 years. The armies of the Earth will almost certainly percieve this gigantic "starship" as an alien invasion and will almost certainly associate all the previous disasters of the 7 trumpets as a precursor to their arrival.

This theme was recently illustrated in the movie "The 5th wave" where an alien invasion force first initiated a series of cataclysmic events (like an array of natural disasters and sickness) on the earth before their ground troops invaded. It will be extremely easy for the average person to associate all the various disasters of the 7 trumpets, and then the 7 bowls of wrath with an alien invasion as opposed to the return of the Lord. For the past several decades we've been trained to recognize what an alien invasion will look like, and especially in the past 2 decades. Alien invasion themes are super popular.

Anyway, I look forward to your reply.

ES said:
Yup, I agree there is a chronological order, but understanding that order in real-time requires jumping back and forth within the text.

Within common sense and reason. For example chapter 13 will not fit before chapter 5. Neither do I believe chapter 21 can fit with 11 or 16.

I am totally convinced Revelation is not in complete chronological order and there is much overlap and retelling of the same events, just not in this case.

I think this is one of those tricky perspective issues. In this chapter Jesus rides down from Heaven to defeat the armies of man gathered against him. But the "bride of Christ" is there with him, celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb. Then, they go back down to Earth to fight the battle of Armageddon, for which the Kings of the Earthhave been gathered together.

So, if Revelation 19 is describing the return of Jesus, then how is it that the saints are already there with him when he rides down on his white horse?

The only saints in heaven before the return of Christ in Rev. 19 are the souls of them that sleep in Jesus, 1 Thessalonians 4:14. They will return with Him.

No, I think the Revelation is describing the battle of Armageddon here.

Jesus's return and the battle of Armageddon are both in Revelation 19.

Revelation 16 shows the 6th angel pouring his vial, which somehow allows the kings of the earth to gather together against God. Gather against what?

Zech.14:2 against Jerusalem. Revelation 19:19 “Against him that sat on the horse, and against his army”. No mention of the New Jerusalem yet.

To fight against an invisible spirit? No. By this time New Jerusalem must have descended from Heaven, thus giving the leaders of the world both a physical target and the impetus to gather together to fight against it. Otherwise you've got the armies of the earth gathering on a field for no apparent reason which doesn't make any sense.

Disagree, nothing in the text of Revelation 19 or Zechariah 14 to suggest the New Jerusalen is involved here.

There must be something physical and tangible which they can see to cause them to gather because that's just how humans are. Armies won't gather without a target. How will they know where to point their guns and rockets?

At Him that sits on the horse and Jerusalem they will be very visable. Jerusalem, Christ and His armies is the target not the New Jerusalem.

Disagree with your above statement, that is opinion and theory not based on any clear text.

The 7th vial is "poured into the air", which is the battle of Armageddon itself, where Jesus destroys his enemies, though even then there is indication that there will mortals who survive the battle.

Actually the 6th vial is in preparation for Armageddon.

Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

I believe the 7th trumpet is the return of Christ and I also believe the 7th vial overlaps the 7th trumpet in some way. One evidence is :

Rev. 11: 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Rev. 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

I believe these passages describe the same event. I am very aware many disagree, so be it.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. My understanding of the time line is that Jesus returns at the last trumpet.

I am in agreement with you on the last trumpet (7th), but many on this forum are not.

His return is accompanied by New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven.

This is where I believe you have a problem making your case. I understand your reasoning; I just disagree that is what the text says.

The saints go up to celebrate the marriage supper of the lamb while the vials of wrath are being poured out on a disobedient world below.

I don’t want to make this a discussion about where or what the “marriage supper of the Lamb “ is but what I will say is, in scripture we are given very little information on this topic and it has been my experience most people mix a lot of speculation and assumption into their view of this event.

The last vial is the battle of Armageddon, which shows Jesus and his saints riding down to fight the battle, but "down" from where?

That is not stated in the text of Revelation 16:17-21. While I believe there is overlap with some of these events I believe Armageddon starts with the 6th vial and it probably ends in the 7th vial.

I suggest they are in the New Jerusalem at this time, for the marriage supper of the Lamb, as it hovers over the surface of the Earth while the vials are being poured out.

Pure speculation, I believe not supported by any text.

Daniel 12:11-12describes a 45 day period beyond the length of the final 7 year period, which I suggest is the time at which the vials are being poured out

I believe all vials, trumpets and seals are completed at the end of the tribulation with the return of Christ, Matthew 24:29-31.

The armies are defeated and the false prophet/Beast are locked away, thus starting the 1000 year reign. Revelation 21 gives a lengthy description of New Jerusalem and near the end describes the "kings of the Earth" bringing their glory into it. New Jerusalem is there, on the Earth, for the 1000 year reign.

This is the heart of our disagreement. For me the key here is:

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

John saw the New Jerusalem descend after the new heaven and earth which is after the 1000 year reign. I don’t believe you can show the new heaven and earth before the 1000 year reign because of Revelation 21:4.

I don't understand the leap which you see in my reasoning, but I'll try to re-clarify my position. The issue was one of timing regardless of the chapter and verse numbers next to the information, meaning that something which happens in chapter 21 does not necessarily describe an event which comes after chapter 11. The chapter numbers and verses are helpful for organizing the information into a system for easy reference but they are superfluous to the content of the information.

I agree with the principal you have outlined here but I disagree with how you have applied it in this case.

Both Revelation 11 and Revelation 21 describe God establishing authority over the world.

I disagree, I believe in Rev. 21 God has already established authority over the world at the beginning of the 1000 year reign.

REV 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

REV 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I disagree I believe Rev 11:15 is when it happens and Rev. 21:3 it has already happened. Can you show any evidence of a new heaven and earth prior to or during the 1000 year reign?

These are references to the same event, but from different perspectives. Otherwise, IF you say that, in real time, the events of chapter 21 (the coming down of New Jerusalem) comes AFTER Revelation 11 (the sounding of the 7th trumpet and the return of Jesus) then you must conclude that there are two separate instances where God establishes his final authority over the earth, which makes no sense.

Disagree ,as previously explained.

No, New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven along with the Return of Jesus, both of which unequivocally show the establishment of God's kingdom and authority on the earth for the next 1000 years. The armies of the Earth will almost certainly percieve this gigantic "starship" as an alien invasion and will almost certainly associate all the previous disasters of the 7 trumpets as a precursor to their arrival.

We will just have to disagree on this point I believe you are 1000 years off on the New Jerusalem coming down.

This theme was recently illustrated in the movie "The 5th wave" where an alien invasion force first initiated a series of cataclysmic events (like an array of natural disasters and sickness) on the earth before their ground troops invaded. It will be extremely easy for the average person to associate all the various disasters of the 7 trumpets, and then the 7 bowls of wrath with an alien invasion as opposed to the return of the Lord. For the past several decades we've been trained to recognize what an alien invasion will look like, and especially in the past 2 decades. Alien invasion themes are super popular.

I agree we have been set up for a delusion I just disagree with your conclusions.

God bless you and your work for Him!

 

[Riberra]

And yet the 7th seal launches into a description of the 7 trumpets of the tribulation.

The 7 TH seal is the proof text that the 7 seals must be opened before that the events written in the scroll begin.That is why when the 7 Th seal is broken (Revelation 8) it launches into a description of the 7 trumpets of the tribulation.It it logical to think that the 7Th seal will be opened as soon as the 144,000 will be sealed for protection (Revelation 7).Notice that the sealing is still part of the 6TH seal , it happen immediately after Revelation 6:12-21 .
-Based on the sequence described in Revelation we can conclude that The 6 TH Seal events (in particular the destruction caused by the great worldwide earthquake) will set the scene for the beginning of the Tribulation for the survivors ....thus the immediate urgency to seal the 144,000 for protection.

The final bowl of wrath is the battle of Armageddon, where in Revelation 19

The 7 TH Bowl of wrath will INCLUDE the battle of Armageddon as final act.

In fact the 7TH Bowl of wrath start with what is described in Revelation 16:17-21

It will include God's judgment upon Great Babylon who will be destroyed by fire , which Revelation 17 and Revelation 18 give us an overview and also explain why God is so angry against Great Babylon.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The only saints in heaven before the return of Christ in Rev. 19 are the souls of them that sleep in Jesus, 1 Thessalonians 4:14. They will return with Him.

REV 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

REV 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

REV 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

I don't understand how you can read this description and conclude that these are only some of the followers of Jesus. The text says this is the Bride. Not part of the bride or "the souls that sleep". It says this is the marriage supper of the lamb. Unless there is more than one marriage supper of the lamb for the bride of Christ, then this description must include all of Jesus' followers, which means, by this time, Jesus has returned and the bowls are being poured out on the earth below while the saints are celebrating the righteousness of God and their salvation, (just like the chapter starts) and culminates in the Battle of Armageddon.

Jesus's return and the battle of Armageddon are both in Revelation 19.

What is described in Revelation 19 isn't the return, even though it describes Jesus riding down to fight the battle of Armageddon. I understand how you could interpret this as "The return of Jesus", but it makes no sense to interpret it that way. How could Jesus return for the bride when the Bride is there, riding with him already? The purpose of this "riding down on a white horse" is made clear; it is to fight against the armies of the earth which had gathered together; not to return for his people.

Disagree, nothing in the text of Revelation 19 or Zechariah 14 to suggest the New Jerusalen is involved here.

When you say "there is nothing" in either of those chapters to even suggest New Jerusalem being involved, it comes across, to me, as overstating your case. In Revelation 11 an angel is talking to John about the two witnesses and says they will be killed and lay 3 days in the streets of the "great city" which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Here, the angel is having a shot at the city of Jerusalem which has become corrupt. This is an important reference back to the concept of the spiritual vs the physical. The city of Jerusalem will be no more special than Sodom or Egypt. New Jerusalem is the focus of God's plan now, and even then there is some overlap between a physical New Jerusalem and the people as God's temple (i.e. Revelation 11:2 talks about the Holy Temple being "trodden under foot" for 42 months, which is the same period of time the Beast fights against the saints).

And, of Course, both the Bride of Christ and Jesus on his white horse are riding down from somewhere. Where are they at this time? Where are they riding from? New Jerusalem "come down out of Heaven" at the return of Jesus, makes the most sense based on the surrounding context.

At Him that sits on the horse and Jerusalem they will be very visable. Jerusalem, Christ and His armies is the target not the New Jerusalem.

Disagree with your above statement, that is opinion and theory not based on any clear text.

This theory doesn't make sense based on the context. You say Revelation 19 describes the return of Jesus, but then you say the armies of the Earth are gathered against Jesus and Jerusalem, both of whom will be very visible. So, is Jesus visible before he returns? And, will the armies of the earth see him in the city of Jerusalem and gather against the city before he returns? How can he be in the city of Jerusalem before he "returns"? And, it's not just "christ and his armies". The text specifically mentions that the saints, the bride of Christ, clothed in white linen etc will be riding with him. How can the Bride of Christ be there in New Jerusalem with Jesus before he even returns for them?

This is pretty clear from the text of Revelation 19, but you stil say that this conclusion is not based on any clear text, which makes me wonder where our breakdown in communication is happening.

I don’t want to make this a discussion about where or what the “marriage supper of the Lamb “ is but what I will say is, in scripture we are given very little information on this topic and it has been my experience most people mix a lot of speculation and assumption into their view of this event.

I think maybe this is where the break down is coming. The marriage supper of the Lamb is an important feature of Revelation 19. It establishes that Jesus' riding down to fight the armies of the Earth cannot be the Return described in Matthew 24, because by this time the elect are already with him celebrating the marriage supper. For you to say you don't want to make this a discussion which accounts for that information is concerning.

 

[Postvieww]

REV 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

REV 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

REV 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

I don't understand how you can read this description and conclude that these are only some of the followers of Jesus. The text says this is the Bride. Not part of the bride or "the souls that sleep". It says this is the marriage supper of the lamb. Unless there is more than one marriage supper of the lamb for the bride of Christ, then this description must include all of Jesus' followers, which means, by this time, Jesus has returned and the bowls are being poured out on the earth below while the saints are celebrating the righteousness of God and their salvation, (just like the chapter starts) and culminates in the Battle of Armageddon.



What is described in Revelation 19 isn't the return, even though it describes Jesus riding down to fight the battle of Armageddon. I understand how you could interpret this as "The return of Jesus", but it makes no sense to interpret it that way. How could Jesus return for the bride when the Bride is there, riding with him already? The purpose of this "riding down on a white horse" is made clear; it is to fight against the armies of the earth which had gathered together; not to return for his people.



When you say "there is nothing" in either of those chapters to even suggest New Jerusalem being involved, it comes across, to me, as overstating your case. In Revelation 11 an angel is talking to John about the two witnesses and says they will be killed and lay 3 days in the streets of the "great city" which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Here, the angel is having a shot at the city of Jerusalem which has become corrupt. This is an important reference back to the concept of the spiritual vs the physical. The city of Jerusalem will be no more special than Sodom or Egypt. New Jerusalem is the focus of God's plan now, and even then there is some overlap between a physical New Jerusalem and the people as God's temple (i.e. Revelation 11:2 talks about the Holy Temple being "trodden under foot" for 42 months, which is the same period of time the Beast fights against the saints).

And, of Course, both the Bride of Christ and Jesus on his white horse are riding down from somewhere. Where are they at this time? Where are they riding from? New Jerusalem "come down out of Heaven" at the return of Jesus, makes the most sense based on the surrounding context.



This theory doesn't make sense based on the context. You say Revelation 19 describes the return of Jesus, but then you say the armies of the Earth are gathered against Jesus and Jerusalem, both of whom will be very visible. So, is Jesus visible before he returns? And, will the armies of the earth see him in the city of Jerusalem and gather against the city before he returns? How can he be in the city of Jerusalem before he "returns"? And, it's not just "christ and his armies". The text specifically mentions that the saints, the bride of Christ, clothed in white linen etc will be riding with him. How can the Bride of Christ be there in New Jerusalem with Jesus before he even returns for them?

This is pretty clear from the text of Revelation 19, but you stil say that this conclusion is not based on any clear text, which makes me wonder where our breakdown in communication is happening.



I think maybe this is where the break down is coming. The marriage supper of the Lamb is an important feature of Revelation 19. It establishes that Jesus' riding down to fight the armies of the Earth cannot be the Return described in Matthew 24, because by this time the elect are already with him celebrating the marriage supper. For you to say you don't want to make this a discussion which accounts for that information is concerning.

ES said:

REV 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

REV 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

REV 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

I believe the above passages are just an announcement that it is time for the marriage supper. There are no details listed of where it will take place or no details of what it will be like. That is what I meant when I said ” most people mix a lot of speculation and assumption into their view of this event” . I believe it take will place on this earth, not on a cloud or in heaven celebrating and feasting around a table while the vials are being poured out. There is no scripture for that. Just as I can’t prove it is on this earth I doubt you can prove anything about the location.

This is speculation on my part.

Matthew 26:29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

Since marriage supper implies eating and drinking, should we consider the above verse. Where is the “my Father’s kingdom” to which Jesus referred?

I don't understand how you can read this description and conclude that these are only some of the followers of Jesus. The text says this is the Bride. Not part of the bride or "the souls that sleep". It says this is the marriage supper of the lamb. Unless there is more than one marriage supper of the lamb for the bride of Christ, then this description must include all of Jesus' followers, which means, by this time, Jesus has returned and the bowls are being poured out on the earth below while the saints are celebrating the righteousness of God and their salvation, (just like the chapter starts) and culminates in the Battle of Armageddon.

Your above statement about celebrating is part of the speculation to which I referred. I believe all of those in Christ will be present, I just don’t believe we will be on a cloud celebrating while the vials are being poured out.

What is described in Revelation 19 isn't the return, even though it describes Jesus riding down to fight the battle of Armageddon. I understand how you could interpret this as "The return of Jesus", but it makes no sense to interpret it that way. How could Jesus return for the bride when the Bride is there, riding with him already?

Actually I believe it is the return. I have issued a challenge to many on these forums, which to date no one has accepted and produced. That challenge is show us any 2 coming of the Lord passages in all of scripture that are identical in wording. Because Rev 19 does not mention the resurrection does not mean it will not take place there. I believe we must harmonize all passages on the coming of the Lord to get the complete picture.

The purpose of this "riding down on a white horse" is made clear; it is to fight against the armies of the earth which had gathered together; not to return for his people.

So how many comings of the Lord do you believe there will be? Do you believe the coming in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a separate coming because it does not mention the battle of Armageddon? Would then the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 be separate from the coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 doesn’t even mention the coming of the Lord.

When you say "there is nothing" in either of those chapters to even suggest New Jerusalem being involved, it comes across, to me, as overstating your case.

I stand by that statement . Show me any reference to the New Jerusalem apart from Revelation 21.

In Revelation 11 an angel is talking to John about the two witnesses and says they will be killed and lay 3 days in the streets of the "great city" which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Here, the angel is having a shot at the city of Jerusalem which has become corrupt. This is an important reference back to the concept of the spiritual vs the physical. The city of Jerusalem will be no more special than Sodom or Egypt.

True it has become corrupt but it is the area where Jesus will return, that makes it special, Zechariah 14:4.

New Jerusalem is the focus of God's plan now,

Not until after the 1000 year reign.

and even then there is some overlap between a physical New Jerusalem and the people as God's temple (i.e. Revelation 11:2 talks about the Holy Temple being "trodden under foot" for 42 months, which is the same period of time the Beast fights against the saints).

This is another topic, whether or not a third temple will be rebuilt.

And, of Course, both the Bride of Christ and Jesus on his white horse are riding down from somewhere. Where are they at this time? Where are they riding from?

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

1 Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

I believe the above passages can be and should be harmonized and they refer to the same event. If Not we must start dividing them up and have multiple comings of the Lord.

They come from heaven; they are the souls of them that sleep in Jesus. If not how do you get resurrected saints into heaven to return with Him? How many comings of the Lord yet future do you see in scripture? To me harmonizing the text makes the most sense.

New Jerusalem "come down out of Heaven" at the return of Jesus, makes the most sense based on the surrounding context.

I still maintain you can’t provide scriptural support for that. NJ comes down 1000 years later.

This theory doesn't make sense based on the context. You say Revelation 19 describes the return of Jesus, but then you say the armies of the Earth are gathered against Jesus and Jerusalem, both of whom will be very visible. So, is Jesus visible before he returns? And, will the armies of the earth see him in the city of Jerusalem and gather against the city before he returns? How can he be in the city of Jerusalem before he "returns"? And, it's not just "christ and his armies".

You have just engaged in human reasoning arguments like those used by pretribbers. For example they say “in the rapture Jesus comes for his saints, at the second coming He comes with His saints”. I believe he can do both at one time, he comes with the souls of them that sleep in Jesus to be reunited with their new glorified , resurrected bodies and the living in Christ will be changed at that time.

You believe the gathered armies need a visible target or they cannot gather, I do not. By the time of Jesus’s second coming there will have been great tribulation on this earth and satan knows the scriptures as well as anyone and he knows he has but a short time, and he knows he has one last opportunity to defeat God which he has been trying to do since he fell.

Here is your answer:

Rev. 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

These armies are gathered by the spirits of devils that is supernatural and does not require a visible target as you have maintained.

The text specifically mentions that the saints, the bride of Christ, clothed in white linen etc will be riding with him.

The souls in Revelation 6:9-11 have white robes as well.

How can the Bride of Christ be there in New Jerusalem with Jesus before he even returns for them?

I don’t believe they are. The saints do not enter until Rev 21:27 1000 years after the return of Jesus.


This is pretty clear from the text of Revelation 19, but you stil say that this conclusion is not based on any clear text, which makes me wonder where our breakdown in communication is happening.

There may have been some communication breakdown but I believe we just have very different views on some of these topics.

I think maybe this is where the break down is coming. The marriage supper of the Lamb is an important feature of Revelation 19. It establishes that Jesus' riding down to fight the armies of the Earth cannot be the Return described in Matthew 24,

I disagree, I believe Rev. 19 and Mat. 24 are absolutely the same event.

because by this time the elect are already with him celebrating the marriage supper.

That is what is not clearly stated in scripture. I believe you have to speculate to state that as fact, as you have. As I said before I believe the marriage supper takes place on the earth.

For you to say you don't want to make this a discussion which accounts for that information is concerning.

I’ve explained my position in this post. My, mistake to not realize the relevance in the prior post.

I don’t believe you have yet answered the point that the New Jerusalem comes down after the new heaven and earth are made.


It appears we are not even close on some of these issues but I will be glad to answer any points you raise or questions you have. That is how we learn.

 

[Waterwerx]

( As far as I know ) The armies will be gathered around Jerusalem BEFORE Y'SHUA returns.
At the last moment , where a moment more and Jerusalem would be overrun, Y'SHUA returns,
and all of the enemy and all of the weapons they have
burst into flame - they are destroyed in an instant - there is no challenge to Y'SHUA.

When all of Israel cries out with one heart and soul "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME ADONAI!" just as during HIS entrance to Jerusalem on a donkey and foal,
YHWH sends Y'SHUA immediately - exactly at the time YHWH has known forever - and rescues HIS people for HIS PURPOSE and HIS PLAN.

BEFORE THEN (already planned and executed) , the enemy of Y'SHUA has perpetrated, planned, and started
all the nonsense about life from other planets or life from outer space -- even in the plans are published accounts of the proper way to "b*ptize" an alien !
This is complete and utter deception roy-ale on a humongous scale.
Many multitudes of people are already deceived, and will be deceived even more by antics and evil shenanigans of the enemy; including but not limited to holograms used to create a false apparition, and sounds - manmade sounds - produced around the world with "mysterious" circumstances....

Lets not forget how even so-called fact based media, such as the History Channel, have gone the way of stupid with their Ancient Aliens series, which has been debunked to the point that it's comical. Nevertheless, they continue to air this nonsense on their network. Just do a search on "Ancient Aliens Debunked".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Nevertheless, they continue to air this nonsense on their network.

And in (and by) many of the world's churches. The deception is millennia older, growing daily, no let up.

 

[Riberra]

Hi all. I realize the title may sound a little sensational, but I'd like to discuss this topic as a serious possibility. The basic idea is that the return of Jesus will likely to be viewed as an alien invasion

That is not the Coming of Jesus who will look like a massive arrival of 'aliens coming from outer space in luminous ships' but the coming of Satan and his fallen angels when they will be cast out of Heaven (Revelation 12:7-9)

Satan will arrive on the Earth not long after the second woe... Revelation 11:14

The first and second woe are described in Revelation 9 .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

but the coming of Satan and his fallen angels when they will be cast out of Heaven

which has been debunked to the point that it's comical. Nevertheless, they continue to air this nonsense on their network.

And in (and by) many of the world's churches. The deception is millennia older, growing daily, no let up.

 

[Riberra]

which has been debunked to the point that it's comical.

Do you deny that Satan and his fallen angels will be cast out of Heaven in the middle of the tribulation ?

Have you ever wondered how it will look like for us on the Earth when Satan and millions of his fallen angels will be cast out of Heaven and arrive in mass on the Earth ...knowing that Satan will use a massive deception ?

Satan and his fallen angels will arrive on the Earth not long after the second woe... Revelation 11:14

The first and second woe are described in Revelation 9 .


Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I believe the above passages are just an announcement that it is time for the marriage supper. There are no details listed of where it will take place or no details of what it will be like. That is what I meant when I said ” most people mix a lot of speculation and assumption into their view of this event” .

I see. I didn't realize this was your position. You say the passage is "just an announcement that it is time for the marriage supper", but then go on to say there are no details about when it will take place. You don't see the contradiction there? The announcement that it is time for the marriage supper IS the detail about when it will take place. "The marriage of the lamb is come" and "the wife is ready" and "the saints were given white robes". This is the marriage supper of the lamb taking place.

I believe it take will place on this earth, not on a cloud or in heaven celebrating and feasting around a table while the vials are being poured out. There is no scripture for that.

Sure there is. A little later in the chapter, the heavens open and Jesus appears on his white horse with the armies of Heaven following after him. This army is "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" which is exactly how the saints (i.e. the bride of Christ) were just described at the marriage supper of the Lamb. They ride down with Jesus and defeat the armies of the Earth which had been gathered together at the 6th bowl of wrath. The 7th bowl, for which they are coming down out of the "heavens" is the battle of Armageddon.

If these saints, the bride, dressed in clean white linen are riding out with Jesus to deal with the 7th bowl, then that means, of necessity, they were celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb with Jesus while the previous 6 bowls were being poured out. That's what the chapter actually describes. You can say that you think the marriage happens later, but the evidence does not show that.

It also makes sense that the saints are with Jesus up in New Jerusalem, celebrating the marriage of the lamb, while the bowls of wrath are being poured on a disobedient world below, because we are not appointed to wrath. We suffer persecution and tribulation, yes, but the wrath of God is different in nature and emphasis. It is directed specifically at the enemies of God, not at his people. It makes sense that Jesus returns at the last trumpet of the Tribulation, with New Jerusalem coming down with him, the saints go up to meet him in the air as New Jerusalem hovers over the land of Israel where the armies of the earth will gather against it, which is part of the series of the 7 bowls of wrath.

Matthew 26:29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

Since marriage supper implies eating and drinking, should we consider the above verse. Where is the “my Father’s kingdom” to which Jesus referred?

The kingdom exists at different levels. There is the kingdom represented by Jesus' teachings, the core values which make up this "kingdom". There is the Kingdom in the sense of God's authority. There is the kingdom in the sense of the followers of Jesus who are the "temple" of God now, (as opposed to the physical buildings of the Old Testament). There is the kingdom in the sense of New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven. It appears that this will be a literal, physical "building" of some kind, but that, again, the building itself only has significance inasmuch as God gives it significance. There is a strong overlap between all these aspects of the kingdom, so that it becomes impossible to get the spirit of "the kingdom" when talking about only one to the exclusion of the others. This is why, when Zechariah makes mention of "Jerusalem" in his prophecies it is a mistake to assume he is talking about the physical city of Jerusalem.

This means that the location of the "father's kingdom" will change depending on which aspect of the kingdom you're referring to. Jesus said the kingdom is within us. The Revelation talks about God establishing his Kingdom on the Earth. The Kingdom can be in Heaven, with God, and it can be on earth, inside of God's people at the same time. It can have physical principles and spiritual principles at the same time.

I believe the bigger picture, all the various prophetic references put together, does indeed indicate New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, along with Jesus, at the 7th trumpet, where the saints gather together for the marriage supper of the Lamb, which will probably be hovering over the land of Israel, thus making an appealing target for the armies of the earth to gather against below. After the battle of Armageddon, I think it is likely that the New Jerusalem will then settle on the earth and become the epicenter of God's visible Kingdom on the Earth for the next 1000 years.

Actually I believe it is the return. I have issued a challenge to many on these forums, which to date no one has accepted and produced. That challenge is show us any 2 coming of the Lord passages in all of scripture that are identical in wording. Because Rev 19 does not mention the resurrection does not mean it will not take place there. I believe we must harmonize all passages on the coming of the Lord to get the complete picture.

For me, I see "the return", "the 2nd coming" and "the rapture" as all being different ways to describe the same event. Jesus riding "down from Heaven" on his white horse, with the "armies of Heaven clothed in clean, white linen", just after the marriage supper of the lamb where the bride is given "clean white linen", is not THE return of Jesus. By that time Jesus has already returned. What Revelation 19 describes is different both in context and emphasis from what Matthew 24 describes. In Matthew 24, the elect are gathered to Jesus at the sound of a trump (i.e. the last trumpet of the tribulation). In Revelation 19 the elect are already with him (they are given their clean white linen) and they ride down from Heaven for the last bowl of the wrath. Revelation 19 describes the fulfillment of the 7th bowl of God's wrath.

I still maintain you can’t provide scriptural support for that. NJ comes down 1000 years later.

Sure I can. Compare Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 21: 2-3. They describe the same event; God establishing his kingdom on the earth but from different perspectives. From memory, your main reason for believing they are not the same event is because chapter 21 comes after chapter 11. Revelation 11: 18-19 (at the 7th trumpet) says God's wrath has come, the nations are angry and gather against the Lord, the dead are judged, the saints are rewarded, the temple of God (i.e. New Jerusalem?) is "opened in Heaven" with lightnings, thundering, and an earthquake, all of which sounds entirely plausible and most likely consistent with a "starship" the size of New Jerusalem entering the earths atmosphere and the resulting gravitational/atmospheric effects.

However, Revelation 21: 2 describes New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven "adorned as a bride for her husband". I believe this is a reference to those various meanings of "the kingdom" based on the context. There will be a literal city, sure, but the spirit of New Jerusalem is the people. New Jerusalem appears along with the return of Jesus, but it does not fully come to earth at that time. Instead, the saints go UP to New Jerusalem where it is waiting up in the atmosphere, not present on the surface of the earth, but still highly visible to the armies of the earth below (apparently it will be roughly the size of the moon). Then, after the simultaneous marriage supper of the lamb in heaven / bowls of wrath down below on the earth, the armies of Heaven "clothed in clean, white linen" (given to them at the marriage supper) will ride down to the Earth where they will fight the battle of armageddon. I believe this "riding down" is the aspect of New Jerusalem being described in chapter 21. The city is there, yes, but it is the saints, the "pride and joy" of God, his temple, riding down in obedience to the lamb which makes up the spirit of New Jerusalem coming to establish God's thousand years of reign on the physical earth.

 

[Dave Watchman]

I think the appearance of New Jerusalem will represent a pretty major shift in how God operates. It will be the end of this current phase of God's experiment with humanity as we move into the next phase of our education.

I think you're right. Both when it appears to the eye at the 7th trumpet and when it lands on earth after the thousand years are finished. I'm not sure if this has all been just an "experiment" or if this is how God has chosen to deal with the sin problem which began before our time here.

And how much time do you think it will take for the dead to be judged? This will be the first time in history that ALL of the saints will be alive at the same time. From Adam until the last day. But until the vials are finished being poured, all the dead are NOT dead yet. Paul said:

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

"Do you not know that we are to judge angels?​

My understanding, based on Daniel 8, is that Jesus must by now have finished the executive phase, the ultimate part of the judgement of the dead. This has taken approximately 175 literal years. I'm sure that He could have done it in a few seconds but there is likely a courtroom scene with 24 elders and an audience of angels observing every thought and action in an individuals life before the pronouncement is made.

Only after the seventh vial is completed can this Pauline phase of the judgement process begin. And this is going to involve all of the saints and not only all of the dead but will also include the judgement of billions of demonic angels. What are WE going to have to do with the judgement process? Because Jesus already made the Big decision regarding their ultimate fate, it could be that we'll be involved in recommending with how many "stripes" the individual endures before entering the lake of fire. This could mean that the victim of a crime would have the opportunity to make recommendations on their killer's punishment.

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. ​

This is going to take more than an hour, there's billions of dead to be judged from thousands of years of history. My idea for bringing this up here is that this is going to take some time to "judge the world" and is deserving of a proper time interval and a venue appropriate for the event. We won't do this whilst floating "in the air".

Agreed. I think there will still be plenty of interaction between the physical and the spiritual. I believe the NT account strongly suggests that the saints will be in charge of the world during the 1000 year reign. It will be our responsibility to teach the nations what it means to follow God and we'll finally have the power to effect real change, but it will still be a responsibility. We'll still need to think, make decisions, and interact with the mortals who survived the 7 bowls of wrath and who wil repopulate the earth during that 1000 year period. I believe the new Bodies we'll be given will very much be able to interact with the physical world (like eating and drinking).

I'm sorry ES, my view of the thousand years are different than yours, but when this thing gets going nobody will be disappointed. Except for the wicked. But it's not going to be like everyone thinks. I can't really say what I think here and it doesn't make a difference anyway at this point in time. I'll send you a link to a little thread here so you can see the negative reaction that it causes when I bring it up.

You guys are scientists over there so consider the specifications of the vials.

At the 7th trumpet there's only going to be two kinds of people on the Earth; Sheep and Goats. The Sheep are ALL translated at the last day resurrection. The Goats are ALL together and ready to be "ruled" with a rod of iron.

It's going to be earthen pots broken into pieces like in Psalm 2:9:

"You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

"You will break them with an iron rod and smash them like clay pots.'"

"You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Like Revelation 2:

"The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.​

The timing of these events doesn't make much sense to me. If they're hiding at the 6th seal (presumably because they are afraid of God), and the 7 trumpets of the tribulation happen at the 7th seal, at which time there is the AC setting himself up as the ultimate authority, causing people to worship him, causing craft to prosper, etc, then how is it that they've come out of hiding for all of this?

I Don't think that the 7 trumpets of the tribulation begin to happen at the 7th seal. The 7th seal is the final one that seals the Lambs Book of Life and that's not opened until waaaaaaay over in Revelation 20:12 after the thousand years are finished during the final judgement. The 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are the same deal, don't worry about it. I worry, but don't you worry. I worry that some of these wicked are like the snotty soccer mom who loved and practiced her lies and adulteries. But maybe she doesn't display the same shock value to us as a hillside strangler or war criminal.

Daniel says that some shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and some as the stars for ever and ever. And there are billions of us that are going to illuminate the stratosphere and there will be billions of sky diving angels falling to intercept us. With a LOUD trumpet call. Can you imagine the sight and sound of it? I can't because there's never been anything like it. And it's a global event occurring all around the stratosphere.

Then after this the wicked will experience:

• God’s temple in heaven opened,
• And the ark of his covenant seen within his temple.
  
• Flashes of lightning,
  
• Rumblings,
  
• Peals of thunder,
  
• An earthquake,
  
• And heavy hail.

It won't matter if you're a tough guy general, president of a nation or a little soccer mom, you're gonna be running for a cave to hide in. In the hours following this, during the vials, people will come out of hiding and be confronted with the reality of the situation. They will become convinced that the God of the Bible HAS come back to fulfill Revelation 19, roll this whole place up like a scroll and that their only chance at survival is to [kill God].

The "AC setting himself up as the ultimate authority, causing people to worship him" only worked up until the 7th trumpet. This is when his 42 months of authority ran out, because prior to this time the vials could never have hurt him or his "kingdom". This is another way to see that the vials can only begin AFTER the 7th trumpet is completed and also helps to refute an erroneous Amil dogma called "progressive parallelism".

"Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;

"harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image

"fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness​

Revelation 21 describes the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven. This suggests that it will be more than just visible waaaaaay up there in outer space where the moon used to be.

And you are 100% correct. But this doesn't happen at the start of the thousand years, it happens after the thousand years are finished.

You've jumped too far ahead with Revelation 21.

Also, as I suggested in a previous post, against what are these kings of the earth gathering? They'd hardly see any sense in gathering against the moon, even if it has cracked open to reveal a gigantic starship. What would be the point in gathering armies together to fight against something as far away as the moon? It makes no sense, unless these moon-sized object, as the description suggests, comes down "from" heaven.

But it does make sense. They are gathering against the Sign of the Son of Man. You seem to think that they won't have anything to shoot at. They are gathering to fight the Rider on the white horse and the armies of heaven. Billions of Heavenly beings amassed together in the sky should make for a fearsome target. After living through the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls, I'll never know where they get the strength. If I were them I'd just give up.

It also doesn't make much sense for this overwhelming display of God;s kingdom to remain aloof hundreds of thousands of miles away from humanity when the description from Revelation 11 and Revelation 21 describes how the "Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdom's of God" and "the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

It doesn't make much sense because you're mixing two events that are separated by a thousand years.

Revelation 11:

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, is referring to all of the resurrected saints becoming a part of God's family at the end of the tribulation prior to the start of the thousand years. His House is complete again after losing a third of it's occupants. This is not about earthly real estate but is talking about all the people, all the various tribes and tongues from Taipei to Paraguay and all points in between.

1000 YEARS LATTER:

Revelation 21:

“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

This is talking about New Jerusalem coming to rest on the Earth after the thousand years are finished. This isn't immediately after the vials. This is a thousand years after the vials when Jesus makes all things new again.

“Behold, I am making all things new.”

"Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,

"For he must remain in heaven
until the time for the final restoration of all things,​

Also, at the end of chapter 21, which gives the clearest description of New Jerusalem, it talks about the Kings of the Earth going in and out to bring their glory to God. It also talks about how to unclean person will be able to go in. I believe this is another reference to the saints ruling the earth. The saints become the kings of the earth in God's new set-up and we bring glory to him, just like Jesus' parable about the talents and how bearing fruit with the responsibilities they were given made God happy.

I think this is where life really begins for us. The meek inherit the Earth. We are all Kings of the Earth wearing our crowns of life.

"Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

"Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.​

It seems contrary to the spirit of teaching, leading, and caring for the remaining inhabitants of the earth that their leader's home would be hundreds of thousands of miles away from them, out where the old moon used to be. I'm willing to consider that possibility, but it is contrary to my understanding of good sense.

Don't think of it like 240,000 miles from earth, think of it like the "swift flight" of Gabriel. It only took him about 3 and a half minutes to make the trip. But that's not how it's gonna be. Jesus is coming HERE to take us THERE to where He is. We will all be together.

I think there may be some confusion here about the various metaphors related to being a thief. Jesus said that what belongs to God belongs to him, which is everything; there is nothing for him to steal. He also said that he had not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. Jesus compared his return (not himself) to a thief only in these sense that his return will take many by surprise. It's not that he really is a thief (i.e. one who steals and destroys), but rather that is how his return will come across to many. Jesus says he comes like a thief at the same time he says, "if the owner of the house had been watching he would not be surprised by the thief". The context was one of preparedness and awareness.

Jesus' reference to Satan as a thief was not about awareness or surprise, but rather the motivation behind satan's behavior. Satan really does want to steal and destroy humanity's relationship with God.

I may have bit off more than I can chew with this one but if you agree that the resurrection is at the 7th trumpet, consider the possibility that we are in the air with Jesus when He turns to us at the 6th bowl and says:

“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”​

He is not coming "like" a thief to us. He's coming like a thief to the folks that are about to experience the great wine press of God. He will "steal" their world away from them and "destroy" the destroyers of the earth.

"The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.​

Previously, during His first visitation He said:

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came (first century) that they may have life and have it abundantly.​

When you list out all the other unfortunate specifications that are about to befall the tribes of the earth at the seventh bowl, like strike down the nations, the great winepress, the great city split into thirds, destroy the destroyers, and the birds gorged with their flesh, I just wonder. If they, the tribes of the earth, aren't going to experience a new Revelation of Jesus.

(It's a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God)

As for spending time in the air, will we just be floating there for however long it takes to pour out the vials?

I'm not sure if "floating" is the right word to use here, but yes, until the vials are finished. I'm sure that we'll each have an angel hanging on to us so that we don't shoot off in the wrong direction. There's probably still more of them than there are of us, so having one for each of us is likely not a problem.

And I can't tell you exactly how long the vials will take. The smartest guy I know says an hour: "For in a single hour she has been laid waste. The other smartest guy I know says that the vials are 75 days in duration which is 1335 - 1260 = 75. I think 75 days is far too long for flesh to survive the first half of the vials alive. If there were any wicked still alive they probably wouldn't have the strength to pull the trigger on a squirt gun. Armageddon would only take a minute, just bind the Devil and then off to New Jerusalem.

It seems contrary to the spirit of the marriage supper of the lamb being described in Revelation 19. The description shows that this party had already been going on and then, for the last bowl of wrath they come down from their heavenly perspective to the battle of Armageddon.

Are you sure that's what it shows? What if it could be shown that Revelation 19:11 takes place BEFORE Revelation 19:1.

"And no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

Can this mean that no one could enter New Jerusalem until the vials are finished? Isn't the place of His sanctuary and the Beloved City the same thing.

It makes no sense that these people will be partiyng in empty air. The context suggests that this party will be happening in New Jerusalem.

I wasn't saying that. I said that we are going to be up in the air for longer than most people think, however long it takes to finish the seven vials. The party WILL take place in New Jerusalem, AFTER the vials are done. And I think we have a good chance to be in the front row with palm branches in our hands.

Why should it be awful that we celebrate while the world is being punished?

Punished is a nice word for it. We will be there. We will see it. But there's a time for every purpose under Heaven. We will celebrate when we get to the Beloved City.

The angels themselves, as they're pouring out their bowls, praise God for his righteousness and judgment against a disobedient world. Why should we not also praise God, not only for giving us eternal life, but for finally bringing his kingdom of justice and righteousness to the Earth?

We WILL praise God. But we won't laugh and sing and drink grape juice while the wicked are being killed here on earth.

'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked.​

Also, again, Revelation 19 starts with the marriage supper of the lamb, and then finished with the saints going down with Jesus for the final bowl (i.e. the battle of Armageddon). They MUST have been celebrating while the previous 6 bowls were being poured out. Otherwise the chapter makes no sense.

Man, this one is going to be tough to explain. The best guy that I know on Bible prophecy has got this part figured out. If I can find the video where he explains it, I'll shoot you the link.

John wrote Revelation on a continuous scroll, he didn't put any chapters or verses. I bet you knew this. Apocalyptic prophecy has a distinct architecture which separates it from a day of the Lord style prophecy or a Messianic prophecy or a local prophecy. An apocalyptic prophecy or "vision", will have a starting point in time and an ending point in time and follow in a chronological order. When chronological order is broken and the subject matter changes, one vision ends and another vision begins.

A careful examination of this can show that Revelation contains 12 apocalyptic prophecies and 12 prophetic time periods. And each of the 12 visions does not always follow the preceding vision in time. So we might have a prophecy that spans 42 months, followed by another prophecy that describes a detail or condition that takes place within a single day or much smaller space of time within the larger span of time. Maybe this is where the technique of repetition and enlargement was invented.

Our white horse Rider appears to be prophecy # 10 in Revelation.

The Day of the Lord – Revelation 19:11 – 20:10

Beginning point in time: at the 6th vial.

Ending point in time The end of the thousand years.

See if you can notice how John is in Heaven having a talk with the angel when his vantage point and subject matter changes when we get to verse 11 where the next vision begins. "Then I saw", and now we're talking about a different vision at another location in time having to do with a "white horse" All of the verses that precede 19:11 are part of the previous vision that began with chapter 18:1.

And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.​

___________________________________________________________

The Rider on a White Horse

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.​

There are other cases that are much easier to spot, like in Revelation 12. Also, whoever added in all the "section headings", like:

"The Woman and the Dragon

"Satan Thrown Down to Earth

"The Fall of Babylon

"The Rider on a White Horse

have often done a good job of finding where one prophecy ended, and another began.

But, the question I asked wasn't about why they gather, but rather what is it that they are gathering against? If there is no New Jerusalem come down from Heaven, then they'd be gathering on an empty field, for what? Guns, tanks, bombs, fighter jets etc; those are the weapons of the Kings of the earth. They won't be shooting their guns at some distant object in space. They won't be sending fighter jets into space. It's possible they could launch missiles into space, but then again the "armies of the earth" hardly need to gather into one place to do that.

There is no point for such a gathering unless there is something to gather against.

Trust me ES, they will SEE something to gather against.

And His eyes are like a flame of fire.

"Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

"And no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.​

Peaceful Sabbath.


This Is Not What the Authors Intended

The original authors of Scripture did not intend that their writings be divided up into chapters or verses. They intended that the books be read straight through from the beginning. A number of the books of Scripture can be read through in one sitting. This is the best way to discover what the author is trying to say. Dividing up the Scripture into chapters and verses encourages people to read only small parts at a time. This is not always helpful.

Summary

In the original text of the various books of the Bible there are no such things as chapter and verse divisions. They were added later for the sake of convenience. While they are helpful, they are not authoritative in any sense of the term. In fact, they can cause a number of problems. Chapter and verse divisions give the impression that the Scripture should be read and studied in bits and pieces. This is not what the original authors intended. The entire context must always be considered. Consequently the chapter and verse divisions should be ignored when one attempts to properly interpret the entire message of Scripture.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_273.cfm

And the moon rang like a gong for three hours:

 

[Postvieww]

I see. I didn't realize this was your position. You say the passage is "just an announcement that it is time for the marriage supper", but then go on to say there are no details about when it will take place. You don't see the contradiction there? The announcement that it is time for the marriage supper IS the detail about when it will take place. "The marriage of the lamb is come" and "the wife is ready" and "the saints were given white robes". This is the marriage supper of the lamb taking place.



Sure there is. A little later in the chapter, the heavens open and Jesus appears on his white horse with the armies of Heaven following after him. This army is "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" which is exactly how the saints (i.e. the bride of Christ) were just described at the marriage supper of the Lamb. They ride down with Jesus and defeat the armies of the Earth which had been gathered together at the 6th bowl of wrath. The 7th bowl, for which they are coming down out of the "heavens" is the battle of Armageddon.

If these saints, the bride, dressed in clean white linen are riding out with Jesus to deal with the 7th bowl, then that means, of necessity, they were celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb with Jesus while the previous 6 bowls were being poured out. That's what the chapter actually describes. You can say that you think the marriage happens later, but the evidence does not show that.

It also makes sense that the saints are with Jesus up in New Jerusalem, celebrating the marriage of the lamb, while the bowls of wrath are being poured on a disobedient world below, because we are not appointed to wrath. We suffer persecution and tribulation, yes, but the wrath of God is different in nature and emphasis. It is directed specifically at the enemies of God, not at his people. It makes sense that Jesus returns at the last trumpet of the Tribulation, with New Jerusalem coming down with him, the saints go up to meet him in the air as New Jerusalem hovers over the land of Israel where the armies of the earth will gather against it, which is part of the series of the 7 bowls of wrath.



The kingdom exists at different levels. There is the kingdom represented by Jesus' teachings, the core values which make up this "kingdom". There is the Kingdom in the sense of God's authority. There is the kingdom in the sense of the followers of Jesus who are the "temple" of God now, (as opposed to the physical buildings of the Old Testament). There is the kingdom in the sense of New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven. It appears that this will be a literal, physical "building" of some kind, but that, again, the building itself only has significance inasmuch as God gives it significance. There is a strong overlap between all these aspects of the kingdom, so that it becomes impossible to get the spirit of "the kingdom" when talking about only one to the exclusion of the others. This is why, when Zechariah makes mention of "Jerusalem" in his prophecies it is a mistake to assume he is talking about the physical city of Jerusalem.

This means that the location of the "father's kingdom" will change depending on which aspect of the kingdom you're referring to. Jesus said the kingdom is within us. The Revelation talks about God establishing his Kingdom on the Earth. The Kingdom can be in Heaven, with God, and it can be on earth, inside of God's people at the same time. It can have physical principles and spiritual principles at the same time.

I believe the bigger picture, all the various prophetic references put together, does indeed indicate New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, along with Jesus, at the 7th trumpet, where the saints gather together for the marriage supper of the Lamb, which will probably be hovering over the land of Israel, thus making an appealing target for the armies of the earth to gather against below. After the battle of Armageddon, I think it is likely that the New Jerusalem will then settle on the earth and become the epicenter of God's visible Kingdom on the Earth for the next 1000 years.



For me, I see "the return", "the 2nd coming" and "the rapture" as all being different ways to describe the same event. Jesus riding "down from Heaven" on his white horse, with the "armies of Heaven clothed in clean, white linen", just after the marriage supper of the lamb where the bride is given "clean white linen", is not THE return of Jesus. By that time Jesus has already returned. What Revelation 19 describes is different both in context and emphasis from what Matthew 24 describes. In Matthew 24, the elect are gathered to Jesus at the sound of a trump (i.e. the last trumpet of the tribulation). In Revelation 19 the elect are already with him (they are given their clean white linen) and they ride down from Heaven for the last bowl of the wrath. Revelation 19 describes the fulfillment of the 7th bowl of God's wrath.



Sure I can. Compare Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 21: 2-3. They describe the same event; God establishing his kingdom on the earth but from different perspectives. From memory, your main reason for believing they are not the same event is because chapter 21 comes after chapter 11. Revelation 11: 18-19 (at the 7th trumpet) says God's wrath has come, the nations are angry and gather against the Lord, the dead are judged, the saints are rewarded, the temple of God (i.e. New Jerusalem?) is "opened in Heaven" with lightnings, thundering, and an earthquake, all of which sounds entirely plausible and most likely consistent with a "starship" the size of New Jerusalem entering the earths atmosphere and the resulting gravitational/atmospheric effects.

However, Revelation 21: 2 describes New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven "adorned as a bride for her husband". I believe this is a reference to those various meanings of "the kingdom" based on the context. There will be a literal city, sure, but the spirit of New Jerusalem is the people. New Jerusalem appears along with the return of Jesus, but it does not fully come to earth at that time. Instead, the saints go UP to New Jerusalem where it is waiting up in the atmosphere, not present on the surface of the earth, but still highly visible to the armies of the earth below (apparently it will be roughly the size of the moon). Then, after the simultaneous marriage supper of the lamb in heaven / bowls of wrath down below on the earth, the armies of Heaven "clothed in clean, white linen" (given to them at the marriage supper) will ride down to the Earth where they will fight the battle of armageddon. I believe this "riding down" is the aspect of New Jerusalem being described in chapter 21. The city is there, yes, but it is the saints, the "pride and joy" of God, his temple, riding down in obedience to the lamb which makes up the spirit of New Jerusalem coming to establish God's thousand years of reign on the physical earth.

ES said:

I see. I didn't realize this was your position. You say the passage is "just an announcement that it is time for the marriage supper", but then go on to say there are no details about when it will take place. You don't see the contradiction there? The announcement that it is time for the marriage supper IS the detail about when it will take place. "The marriage of the lamb is come" and "the wife is ready" and "the saints were given white robes". This is the marriage supper of the lamb taking place.

Show us one descriptive detail of the supper in verses 7-9. Show us in those scriptures something that describes the supper in any way, the actual location, any accoutrements present, any activities.

Again this is why I said many peoples view of the marriage supper is based on speculation.

Let’s create a timeline from what is actually said.

Verse 7 “the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready”

Verse 8 “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white”

Verse 9 “Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb”

No more mention, no description of it taking place, no location given. I have heard great descriptions and sermons on what it will be like but they did not get their information from these three verses.

Speculation only.

Verse 10 John “fell at his feet to worship him” him being the angel.

Verse 11-13 Jesus appears and is described

Verse 14 “And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean” armies clothed in white are described as being with Him.

Verse 15 “And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God”

Verse 16 “And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords”

Verse 17 “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God”

Verse 18 “That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great”

Verse 19 “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his arm”.

Verse 20 “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone”

Verse 21 “And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh”



Sure there is. A little later in the chapter, the heavens open and Jesus appears on his white horse with the armies of Heaven following after him. This army is "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" which is exactly how the saints (i.e. the bride of Christ) were just described at the marriage supper of the Lamb. They ride down with Jesus and defeat the armies of the Earth which had been gathered together at the 6th bowl of wrath. The 7th bowl, for which they are coming down out of the "heavens" is the battle of Armageddon.



If these saints, the bride, dressed in clean white linen are riding out with Jesus to deal with the 7th bowl, then that means, of necessity, they were celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb with Jesus while the previous 6 bowls were being poured out. That's what the chapter actually describes. You can say that you think the marriage happens later, but the evidence does not show that.

Nor does it actually describe what you have just stated. There are saints on this earth during at least some of the bowels. Rev. 16 verses 1-14 we have the first 6 vials then in verses 15-16 just before the seventh vial we have this statement:

Rev. 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

That verse tells me for sure all saints are not in heaven for all of the vials. Someone is on the earth watching and keeping his garments. No one is in heaven watching and waiting for Jesus to come as a thief.

It also makes sense that the saints are with Jesus up in New Jerusalem, celebrating the marriage of the lamb, while the bowls of wrath are being poured on a disobedient world below, because we are not appointed to wrath.

Agreed we are not appointed to wrath.

Vial 1 Rev 16:2 affects only those who have received the mark

Vial 2 Rev 16:3 affects only the sea

Vial 3 Rev 16:4 affect the rivers and fountains of waters

Vial 4 Rev 16:8-9 tells us plainly the fourth angel has the power to scorch men with fire and heat. It does not say all men, it clearly says the angel has control of this plague.

Vial 5 Rev 16:10 affects only the seat of the beast and his kingdom

Vial 6 Rev 16:12-14 affects only the river Euphrates to dry up the waters and release the spirits of devils to gather the kings of the earth to battle.

Not one of these vials so far is said to or has to affect any saint on the earth at the time they are poured out. This is the wrath of God and it is not directed at the people of God. God can protect his own through any calamity He so chooses.

Vial 7 Rev 16:17-21 I believe is at the time of the 6th seal the 7th trumpet, Matt 24:29-31, Zech. 14:3-5 the coming of the Lord the resurrection of the saints and the catching up of those that are alive and remain and the vial is of no consequence to any saint of God.

We suffer persecution and tribulation, yes,

Amen

but the wrath of God is different in nature and emphasis. It is directed specifically at the enemies of God, not at his people.

Agreed and explained above.

It makes sense that Jesus returns at the last trumpet of the Tribulation,

Agreed

with New Jerusalem coming down with him, the saints go up to meet him in the air as New Jerusalem hovers over the land of Israel where the armies of the earth will gather against it, which is part of the series of the 7 bowls of wrath.

Total speculation not found in scripture. Nothing says they will "gather against it".

The kingdom exists at different levels. There is the kingdom represented by Jesus' teachings, the core values which make up this "kingdom". There is the Kingdom in the sense of God's authority. There is the kingdom in the sense of the followers of Jesus who are the "temple" of God now, (as opposed to the physical buildings of the Old Testament). There is the kingdom in the sense of New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven. It appears that this will be a literal, physical "building" of some kind, but that, again, the building itself only has significance inasmuch as God gives it significance. There is a strong overlap between all these aspects of the kingdom, so that it becomes impossible to get the spirit of "the kingdom" when talking about only one to the exclusion of the others. This is why, when Zechariah makes mention of "Jerusalem" in his prophecies it is a mistake to assume he is talking about the physical city of Jerusalem.

This means that the location of the "father's kingdom" will change depending on which aspect of the kingdom you're referring to. Jesus said the kingdom is within us. The Revelation talks about God establishing his Kingdom on the Earth. The Kingdom can be in Heaven, with God, and it can be on earth, inside of God's people at the same time. It can have physical principles and spiritual principles at the same time.

Yes, but since the verse in Matt. I pointed out describes a physical act with a physical group of saints it makes sense it takes place in the physical kingdom on this earth

I believe the bigger picture, all the various prophetic references put together, does indeed indicate New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, along with Jesus, at the 7th trumpet, where the saints gather together for the marriage supper of the Lamb, which will probably be hovering over the land of Israel, thus making an appealing target for the armies of the earth to gather against below. After the battle of Armageddon, I think it is likely that the New Jerusalem will then settle on the earth and become the epicenter of God's visible Kingdom on the Earth for the next 1000 years.

Total speculation.

For me, I see "the return", "the 2nd coming" and "the rapture" as all being different ways to describe the same event.

I agree

Jesus riding "down from Heaven" on his white horse, with the "armies of Heaven clothed in clean, white linen", just after the marriage supper of the lamb where the bride is given "clean white linen", is not THE return of Jesus. By that time Jesus has already returned. What Revelation 19 describes is different both in context and emphasis from what Matthew 24 describes. In Matthew 24, the elect are gathered to Jesus at the sound of a trump (i.e. the last trumpet of the tribulation). In Revelation 19 the elect are already with him (they are given their clean white linen) and they ride down from Heaven for the last bowl of the wrath. Revelation 19 describes the fulfillment of the 7th bowl of God's wrath.

Here you are creating a separate return of Christ even though you call it something else. I believe all passages on the return will harmonize if you let them.

Sure I can. Compare Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 21: 2-3. They describe the same event; God establishing his kingdom on the earth but from different perspectives. From memory, your main reason for believing they are not the same event is because chapter 21 comes after chapter 11.

No not the case. The NJ comes down after the new heaven and earth are made which is after the 1000 years. A point you have yet to address.

Revelation 11: 18-19 (at the 7th trumpet) says God's wrath has come, the nations are angry and gather against the Lord, the dead are judged, the saints are rewarded, the temple of God (i.e. New Jerusalem?) is "opened in Heaven" with lightnings, thundering, and an earthquake, all of which sounds entirely plausible and most likely consistent with a "starship" the size of New Jerusalem entering the earths atmosphere and the resulting gravitational/atmospheric effects.

The NJ is not the temple of God in heaven. The NJ is “prepared” Rev 21:2 it has not been the eternal throne of God in the past now moved to earth.

Heb. 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Christ is now in heaven in the true holy place not made with hands, I believe that is the “temple Of God” referred to in Revelation 11:19.

Jesus said in John 14:2-3 He would go and prepare a place for us, that is the NJ which Rev. 21:2 says is “prepared” and we enter Rev 21:27 after the 1000 years.

However, Revelation 21: 2 describes New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven "adorned as a bride for her husband". I believe this is a reference to those various meanings of "the kingdom" based on the context. There will be a literal city, sure, but the spirit of New Jerusalem is the people.

Agree with “the spirit of New Jerusalem is the people”

New Jerusalem appears along with the return of Jesus, but it does not fully come to earth at that time. Instead, the saints go UP to New Jerusalem where it is waiting up in the atmosphere, not present on the surface of the earth, but still highly visible to the armies of the earth below (apparently it will be roughly the size of the moon).

I see no scripture for that.

Then, after the simultaneous marriage supper of the lamb in heaven / bowls of wrath down below on the earth, the armies of Heaven "clothed in clean, white linen" (given to them at the marriage supper) will ride down to the Earth where they will fight the battle of armageddon. I believe this "riding down" is the aspect of New Jerusalem being described in chapter 21. The city is there, yes, but it is the saints, the "pride and joy" of God, his temple, riding down in obedience to the lamb which makes up the spirit of New Jerusalem coming to establish God's thousand years of reign on the physical earth.

Looks like we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

How do you deal with this passage?

Rev. 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

The passage clearly says the NJ is the bride!

 

[Riberra]

I see no more reason to believe in Demons & Flying Saucers than I do Space Men & Flying Saucers, because I see no reason to believe in Flying Saucers.

Do you believe in the existence of ANGELS ?
Do you believe in the existence of Fallen Angels ?

Angels can appears in the form of light (5 % of the inexplicable cases observed are about strange light in the sky doing sudden acceleration and manoeuvrings impossible for our technology ,like doing sharp turn at a 90 % angle in the opposite direction at incredible speed ) ...

Angels can appears in humans form ...they can probably take any physical form they want (little Greys aliens abducting people )

There is obviously a deception going on ie Fallen Angels masquerading as space aliens coming from outer space using humans against their will for whatever genetic experiment ... as in the days of Noah (Genesis 6:1-4) ie intervention of fallen angels in human affairs

I will not be surprised that when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast out of Heaven [Revelation 12:7-9 ]they will appear as a massive arrival of space aliens coming in luminous ''ships''....''coming to save us from Yahweh'' who will be blamed for the plagues who will have mysteriously and suddenly happened upon the Earth [Trumpet 1 through Trumpet 6 plagues]

Satan and his fallen angels will arrive on the Earth not long after the second woe (Revelation 11:14) - (Revelation 9:12-21)the strange horses like creatures who will cause the killing of 1/3 of humanity at the sounding of the 6 TH Trumpet [Revelation 9:13]... -

The first and second woe are described in Revelation 9

As you can see from Revelation 9 description ,the reality during the tribulation will be stranger than fiction.
Notice how humanity have been prepared through movies [and now even the Pope] for a massive arrival of something coming from other space [surprise Revelation 12:7-9 ].

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Show us one descriptive detail of the supper in verses 7-9. Show us in those scriptures something that describes the supper in any way, the actual location, any accoutrements present, any activities.

Again this is why I said many peoples view of the marriage supper is based on speculation.

Let’s create a timeline from what is actually said.

Verse 7 “the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready”

Verse 8 “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white”

Verse 9 “Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb”

No more mention, no description of it taking place, no location given. I have heard great descriptions and sermons on what it will be like but they did not get their information from these three verses.

The description does not include as much detail as you would expect, but then again there does not appear to be any description of the marriage supper of the lamb which includes more detail that what chapter 19 describes. By your logic, that would suggests that the marriage supper of the lamb doesn't occur at all.

Chapter 19 gives us as much information as we apparently need about it. Do we really need detailed accounts of food and drink to believe that "the marriage supper has come; here's your new clothes" means the marriage supper has, indeed, come at that point? It really comes across to me as though you are trying too hard to make the chapter conform to a theory you have.

You say I have no scriptural evidence, but the chapter is pretty clear about the marriage supper happening at that point. It is you who does not have any scriptural reference about the marriage supper happening after the 1000 year reign, but even without any kind of scriptural reference, it would make no sense for the marriage supper to happen 1000 years after the saints have been ruling with God on the Earth, because the marriage supper represents God's union with his elect. A couple who want to spend the rest of their lives together don't wait 50 or 70 years, living and working together, before they decide to get married. Getting married is the first thing they do to symbolize their commitment to one another; the ceremony acts as the overarching theme for the rest of their lives together.

It makes sense for the marriage supper of the lamb between Jesus and his church to take place when Jesus returns, signifying the start of a new relationship between God and his people.

There are saints on this earth during at least some of the bowels. Rev. 16 verses 1-14 we have the first 6 vials then in verses 15-16 just before the seventh vial we have this statement:

Rev. 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

That verse tells me for sure all saints are not in heaven for all of the vials. Someone is on the earth watching and keeping his garments. No one is in heaven watching and waiting for Jesus to come as a thief.

All prophecy requires interpretation and discernment which goes beyond the numbering system which has been allocated to the various concepts which appear in prophecy. The reference to a "thief" takes us back to Jesus' references about his return. It is a spiritual concept, a warning to those reading the prophecy that, if you want to avoid all this terrible wrath, then watch and be ready, because if you don't, then you won't be prepared and you'll end up naked in the wrath (i.e. you will have missed all the clean, white linen being passed out at the marriage supper of the lamb and be spiritually naked).

The very point of being "naked" conflicts with the idea of being protected. Protection is why we wear clothing. Protection from the elements. Protection from one another. Protection from the environment around us. But I don't think this verse is talking about literal clothing at all. It is talking about spiritual clothing, or spiritual protection. The whole point of being caught in the wrath is that these people were not watching and so they end up spiritually vulnerable to God's wrath (i.e. naked). To me, the verse is a warning to anyone reading the Revelation, before Jesus returns and the wrath is poured out, which is the point of prophecy; to give us advance warning. The warning is consistent with Jesus' references to being a thief; be ready, because if you aren't then Jesus' return will overtake you as a thief and you'll end up spiritually naked and ashamed in the wrath of God.

No not the case. The NJ comes down after the new heaven and earth are made which is after the 1000 years. A point you have yet to address.

I've given scriptural evidence for my position. I don't think you have. Where is the teaching which clearly identifies either the New Jerusalem coming down OR the marriage supper happening after the 1000 year reign?

Jesus said in John 14:2-3 He would go and prepare a place for us, that is the NJ which Rev. 21:2 says is “prepared” and we enter Rev 21:27 after the 1000 years.

See, the thing is, you don't have any scriptural reference for either the NJ coming down or the marraige supper happening after the 1000 years. What you have is, "Rev 21:2 comes after the chapter which describes the 1000 years". That's not a bible reference which "harmonizes" the spiritual concepts into a consistent, bigger picture. It is a reference to the numbering system we humans ascribed to the prophecies to organized them into more easily referenced chunks of information.

 

[Postvieww]

ES said post #54:

You say I have no scriptural evidence, but the chapter is pretty clear about the marriage supper happening at that point. It is you who does not have any scriptural reference about the marriage supper happening after the 1000 year reign, but even without any kind of scriptural reference, it would make no sense for the marriage supper to happen 1000 years after the saints have been ruling with God on the Earth, because the marriage supper represents God's union with his elect. A couple who want to spend the rest of their lives together don't wait 50 or 70 years, living and working together, before they decide to get married. Getting married is the first thing they do to symbolize their commitment to one another; the ceremony acts as the overarching theme for the rest of their lives together.

I have never said the marriage takes place 1000 years later only that the New Jerusalem descends at that time. I have repeatedly asked you to address the point that The NJ comes down after the new heaven and earth are created Rev 21:1-2. Please at least acknowledge the point and offer some explanation.

It makes sense for the marriage supper of the lamb between Jesus and his church to take place when Jesus returns, signifying the start of a new relationship between God and his people.

I believe it does happen when Jesus returns, on this earth not in some heavenly realm.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Sorry ES, when Jesus returns nobody is going to think it's an alien invasion.

"Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”​

Right after the appearance of the sign of the Son of Man all the tribes of the earth will mourn. We never saw the sign of the Son of Man because we WERE the sign. Billions of resurrected saints shooting up into the stratosphere and billions of angels sent out to gather them. What a show of lights, what a sight for the inhabitants of the earth to see. They missed the boat, they mourn. At that point we are no longer included in "the tribes of the earth".

Lucifer, who had been claiming to be Jesus, sends his three best demons to meet with the ten kings of the earth to inform them of what just took place. They tell the kings that the guy who they've come to know as God is actually the Devil himself. And not only that but the real God is on His way to kill everyone with a sharp sword and a wine press. They will become convinced that with mankind's nuclear arsenal combined with demonic ability, it will be possible to kill God. But there are no other options for them. No trickery or cajoling is required.

And if that's not enough, New Jerusalem, which had been cloaked all these years below the lunar surface is now revealed for the inhabitants of the earth to see with the naked eye. Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant was seen within His temple.

Can you say no rest for the wicked?

They are going to WISH it was an alien invasion.

Oh Yeah, New Jerusalem stays right where it is until after the thousand years are finished. I never knew you guys were Amils.

Even at it's largest estimated size, New Jerusalem will fit very nicely within the sphere of the moon with each of it's 8 corners tucking in just 20 feet below the lunar surface.

http://www.davidjayjordan.com/NewJerusalemintheMoon.html

If New Jerusalem were to land on the United States, it would extend into Canada and down into Mexico, enjoy a nice view of each of the oceans and stretch out into space.

http://tourofheaven.com/eternal/new-jerusalem/size.aspx

It is a fun exercise to take a few guesses about how many people might fit in this box. If we ignore the areas that might be taken up for public use, streets, etc. and cram every individual into a prison-cell sized room, you could fit one Quintilian (one billion billion, or one with 18 zeros after it) people inside.

One estimate of the total number of humans that have ever lived on this planet puts the figure at around 106.5 billion. For the sake of argument, if we assume each and every one that has ever lived gets a place in the Beloved City, that leaves enough room for everyone to have a house that’s 1,500 feet on each side, or 2.25 million square feet on each level and around 150 stories tall! In other words, it seems there will be more than enough room for everyone.

Yet, not everyone gets to go.

http://soulliberty.com/the-immensity-of-the-new-jerusalem/

Daniel's prayer from chapter 9 takes about 3.5 minutes to read out loud at a normal rate of speed. Gabriel then came to Daniel in "swift flight" and said: "At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved". So it took Gabriel 3.5 minutes to get from wherever Heaven is to Daniel's location on earth. Assuming New Jerusalem is currently being cloaked beneath the lunar surface it would mean Gabriel's "swift flight" was at the rate of mach 95.5 or 72633 mph., traversing the 240,000 miles of distance in 3.5 minutes.

240,000 miles
72,633 ÷
--------------------------
3.304283177068275 =
95.5 Ma = 72633.321403006 mph

Lunar distance is as a unit of measure in astronomy. It is the average distance from the center of Earth to the center of the Moon. More technically, it is the mean semi-major axis of the geocentric lunar orbit. It may also refer to the time-averaged distance between the centers of the Earth and the Moon, or less commonly, the instantaneous Earth-Moon distance.

Lunar distance is also called Earth-Moon distance, Earth–Moon characteristic distance, or distance to the Moon, and commonly indicated with LD or

.[1] The mean semi-major axis has a value of 384,402 km (238,856 mi).[2] While the time-averaged distance between Earth and Moon centers is 385,000.6 km (239,228.3 mi). The actual distance varies over the course of the orbit of the moon, from 356,500 km (221,500 mi) at the perigee to 406,700 km (252,700 mi) at apogee, resulting in a differential range of 50,200 km (31,200 mi).
If you divide the distance by the speed, you'll get the time. 240,000/775.16 is 309.61 hours. That works out to 12 days, 21 hours 36 minutes.

240,000 miles from earth
768 mph/speed of sound

95.5 Ma = 72633.321403006 mph

Fastest human spaceflight

The crew of NASA's Apollo 10 moon mission reached a top speed of 24,791 mph (39,897 kph) relative to Earth as they rocketed back to our planet on May 26, 1969.

That's the fastest any human beings have ever traveled.

About seven literal weeks earlier on April 1, 1969 the Knesset made a decree to restore and re build Jerusalem.

"Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one,
a prince, there shall be seven weeks.

Seven "weeks" of years are 49 years.

They follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

Lucifer isn't Satan, but other than that nice long through post.

 

[Postvieww]

ES said post # 54

All prophecy requires interpretation and discernment which goes beyond the numbering system which has been allocated to the various concepts which appear in prophecy. The reference to a "thief" takes us back to Jesus' references about his return. It is a spiritual concept, a warning to those reading the prophecy that, if you want to avoid all this terrible wrath, then watch and be ready, because if you don't, then you won't be prepared and you'll end up naked in the wrath (i.e. you will have missed all the clean, white linen being passed out at the marriage supper of the lamb and be spiritually naked).

There is no need or justification for removing Rev 16:15 from its context, it works fine right where it is.

The very point of being "naked" conflicts with the idea of being protected. Protection is why we wear clothing. Protection from the elements. Protection from one another. Protection from the environment around us. But I don't think this verse is talking about literal clothing at all. It is talking about spiritual clothing, or spiritual protection. The whole point of being caught in the wrath is that these people were not watching and so they end up spiritually vulnerable to God's wrath (i.e. naked). To me, the verse is a warning to anyone reading the Revelation, before Jesus returns and the wrath is poured out, which is the point of prophecy; to give us advance warning. The warning is consistent with Jesus' references to being a thief; be ready, because if you aren't then Jesus' return will overtake you as a thief and you'll end up spiritually naked and ashamed in the wrath of God.

I agree with your main point here and have made it many times myself. Only those not watching and waiting will be overtaken as a thief.

My quote: “Rev. 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

That verse tells me for sure all saints are not in heaven for all of the vials. Someone is on the earth watching and keeping his garments. No one is in heaven watching and waiting for Jesus to come as a thief.”

In the above quote my focus was on the fact that Rev 16:15 says “Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments” that meaning some saints are still here on earth watching and keeping their garments and are blessed for it.

Again, no comment on the point raised that we do not have to be removed to another location to celebrate while the vials are being poured out. They are not directed at us anyway. My point is we are still here.

 

[Postvieww]

ES said post #54:

See, the thing is, you don't have any scriptural reference for either the NJ coming down or the marraige supper happening after the 1000 years.

You keep ignoring my point and reference, Revelation 21:1-2. The NJ comes down after the new heaven and earth are created and that is after the 1000 years.


What you have is, "Rev 21:2 comes after the chapter which describes the 1000 years". That's not a bible reference which "harmonizes" the spiritual concepts into a consistent, bigger picture. It is a reference to the numbering system we humans ascribed to the prophecies to organized them into more easily referenced chunks of information.

That is not my position. Until you address my real point we will go around this same old bush. I have repeatedly acknowledged to you and stated to others Revelation is not in complete chronological order, but we have to at least keep things in context. We should just chop out verses that don’t fit our narrative just because verses and chapters are an invention of man. There is still and order to events in Revelation even though some events are referred to more than once. There is only one return of Christ yet future and one resurrection of the righteous dead in our future.

I offered an explanation for the reference to the temple of Revelation 11:19 not being the NJ, you ignored that as well. You don’t have to agree but at least try to refute my position.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Lucifer isn't Satan, but other than that nice long through post.

Well, that may not hold water... (never did before anyway)
First hit on quik internet search
Lucifer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lucifer as Satan or the devil. Adherents of the King James Only movement and others who hold that Isaiah 14:12 does indeed refer to the devil have decried the modern ...

 

[CrystalDragon]

Well, that may not hold water... (never did before anyway)
First hit on quik internet search
Lucifer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lucifer as Satan or the devil. Adherents of the King James Only movement and others who hold that Isaiah 14:12 does indeed refer to the devil have decried the modern ...

It describes that because people have cherry picked Isaiah 14:12-15 so often that the belief that Lucifer is Satan has spread around like it's a fact. If you don't just take that verse and actually read Isaiah 14 in its entirety, you see that that whole section is a proverb being directed at the king of Babylon. Not to mention "Lucifer" is just a translation of "Morning Star", and Jesus even called himself the Morning Star at one point.