Return of Jesus and alien invasions!

[Postvieww]

Thanks for the encouragement.



Jesus' description of his return includes the sun being darkened, the moon not giving her light the power of the heavens being shaken etcI believe this is a reference to New Jerusalem. We go to meet him in the air and then into New Jerusalem, which will be hovering over the earth (as Dave watchman's photos suggest). We celebrate the marriage supper of the lamb while the bowls of wrath are poured out on a spiritually desolate world below.

Part of that wrath includes gathering together the armies of the earth. What are they gathering against? The final bowl of wrath shows Jesus and his followers riding down, just after the marriage supper of the lamb, from some high place to fight against the armies gathered together. All the context points to something which the saints are gathered into and something which the armies of the earth gather against, a something which must be visible to them from their earthly perspective so that they will be able to gather against it.



Part of the mistake sometimes made with interpreting the Revelation is that events in chapter 20 must, of necessity based on how we understand ordering systems, come after events in chapter 6 or 12 or 18. But the numbering system we have now was added later, for the sake of making reference easier and more organized. The numbers themselves do not have any influence on how the events are meant to relate to one another.

For example, movies could be numbered according to their frame number. Most movies run at 24 frames per second. These frames can be numbered so that a movie could have tens of thousands of frames all put into a numerical order. But chaos and a whole lot of misunderstanding would result if we were to say that the events in frame number 3,782 must come after events in frame number 2041, when the events in frame 3782 are actually a flash back to events before the previous frames. Anyone judging the events based on the number of the frames will certainly misunderstand the essence of what the story is attempting to communicate.

Books and movies often employ literary devices where simultaneous action happens at the same time, or is described from different perspectives, or flash backs, or flash forwards and yet, because we cannot read/watch two or three stories happening at the same time in our linear perspective of time we must put one before the other when it comes to how we experience them. So a movie will show action happening in the U.S. and then, later in the movie will travel back in time to show us action which was happening at that same time but in a different part of the world or from a different perspective.

The description of Revelation 21 shows a spiritual milestone being achieved, where the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven thus showing the completion of this particular part of God's overall plan. This is what happens at the return of Jesus or, as the Angel says, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of Christ and he shall reign forever" (Revelation 11). That is immediately followed up with an explanation about how the time of God's wrath has come.

Revelation 21 is a description, spiritually, of what's happening when the 7th angel sounds. It is a description from a different perspective with different emphasis, but it is describing the same event from Revelation 11 at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Otherwise you must conclude (and then defend) that there are two separate "the kingdoms of the earth are become the kingdoms of the Lord and Christ shall reign forever), one for Revelation 11 and another for Revelation 21.

Of course, doing so would make no sense, since after the first claiming of the kingdoms how could there be a second claiming? They've already been claimed in Revelation 11.

ES said:

Part of the mistake sometimes made with interpreting the Revelation is that events in chapter 20 must, of necessity based on how we understand ordering systems, come after events in chapter 6 or 12 or 18. But the numbering system we have now was added later, for the sake of making reference easier and more organized. The numbers themselves do not have any influence on how the events are meant to relate to one another.

I agree Revelation is not in complete chronological order. Even so there are some events laid out in an order.

Jesus returns Revelation 19:11 Jesus defeats the nations Revelation 19:15. The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire Revelation 19:20. Satan is bound for a thousand years in the bottomless pit, Revelation20:2. Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to ignore the 1000 years in your scenario. You appear to move the New Jerusalem ahead at least 1000 years to the time of Christ’s return and leave out the binding and release of satan, the 1000 year reign and the creation of the new heaven and earth Revelation21:1.

The description of Revelation 21 shows a spiritual milestone being achieved, where the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven thus showing the completion of this particular part of God's overall plan. This is what happens at the return of Jesus or, as the Angel says, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of Christ and he shall reign forever" (Revelation 11). That is immediately followed up with an explanation about how the time of God's wrath has come.

I am in agreement with you that Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet, the kingdom are His and He will reign forever. Even with the 1000 year reign Jesus never stops His reign and the kingdoms are still His. I don’t follow how you leave out the 1000 years.

Revelation 21 is a description, spiritually, of what's happening when the 7th angel sounds. It is a description from a different perspective with different emphasis, but it is describing the same event from Revelation 11 at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Otherwise you must conclude (and then defend) that there are two separate "the kingdoms of the earth are become the kingdoms of the Lord and Christ shall reign forever), one for Revelation 11 and another for Revelation 21.

Please explain how you make this leap. Jesus is in control from the moment of His return throughout eternity. I understand what you have said I just don’t understand how you got there. Do you not believe there is a literal 1000 year reign?

 

[Jipsah]

The definition of an alien in this context would be “not of this world”. I would argue fallen angels fit that definition and are referred to in my bible, what about yours?

Yep, I read of them tormenting people, and infesting herds of swine, and generally behaving badly. I don't see any mention of Flying Saucers, or any instances of demons doing anything that isn't petty , smarmy, and childish. The demons described by eschatology buffs are generally far, far scarier than those described in the Bible.

I believe a case can be made from scripture some of them are still active in our world today.

Quite a jump from there to Flying Saucers, isn't there?

If your faith is in one of the Government studies and their conclusions

I got the number from MUFON, the oldest and best regarded private UFO investigative group in existence.

Even with your 5% number you have a lot of explaining to do.

Far easier to simply believe that they're all Flying Saucers driven either by Spacemen or demons. (Or Klingons. Or talking animals. Or whatever else suits your fancy.)

And will be as long as people can look up, point, and say "what is that?" Just be mindful that a "UFO" is a zillion or so times more likely to be the American Airlines shuttle from DCA to JFK than a Flying Saucer being driven by either demons or Space Men from the planet Zorch.

What business does any church having anything to do with an observatory with an acronym L.U.C.I.F.E.R.?

From Catholic Answers:

"The Vatican did not name a telescope Lucifer. The Vatican Observatory shares space (no pun intended) with other organizations and groups. The Vatican Observatory does not own each piece of equipment nor can it give official names or nicknames to things it does not own. Another group installed a telescope it nicknamed Lucifer.

Its a telescope built by the Max Planck Institute for extraterrestrial physics and according to their website it stands for LBT Near Infrared Spectroscopic Utility with Camera and Integral Field Unit for Extragalactic Research. It is noted on the website that its official abbreviation has been changed to LUCI."

By the by, here's what Brother Guy Consolmagno, SJ, said about all this stuff on his web site (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html):

Br. Guy Consolmagno, the Vatican, Alien Extraterrestrial UFOs, and stuff...
The title is designed to reach anyone who has heard about me from a web site or book purporting to express my views on these subjects.

About a year ago, an author (whom I will not name or link to) conducted an extensive interview with me by email. I thought he was a legitimate journalist. However, seeing the ways in which he has twisted, misquoted, and invented utter falsehoods from the things I said, I have come to suspect that he is either a knave or a fool.

There are no Vatican secrets about UFOs. Neither I nor anyone I know has any evidence that extraterrestrials exist. We do not believe that "Jesus is a hybrid" or any of the other bizarre claims that this author makes. He is either seriously deluded, or a deliberate con-man.

Let me phrase this as strongly as I can: I do not know of any credible evidence at all that there has ever been contact of any form between extraterrestrial aliens and Earth. Period. I cannot imagine a circumstance where such contact could be kept secret for very long. And I say this, not only as an active astronomer for 40 years, but also as someone who knows lots of people in the SETI community (who would love to have such evidence), and as someone who's been an officer in the American Astronomical Society and in the International Astronomical Union. If there was something like this going on, we'd all be talking about it. There isn't, and we aren't.

That is a quote taken directly from one of the emails that I sent this author!

Here are some other things that I sent him in my emails:

… talking about Unidentified Flying Objects, which is to say, odd things seen in the sky, I have no problem with that. There are objects in the sky, presumably flying, that many people have a hard time identifying. "UFO" is certainly the right term for that! But once you insist that they are evidence of aliens, or government conspiracies, or for that matter once you try to fit these phenomena into any other preconceived notion, they are no longer "unidentified" -- you have implicitly identified them. And I am highly skeptical of any proposed identifications that rely on aliens, extraterrestrials, conspiracies, etc. … We have no artifacts from UFOs in our labs. We have nothing to test. Thus my skepticism.

I also note that there is a population of very skilled observers who spend a lot of time outdoors at night, without any connection with (or control by) the government or any other "official" institution: these are the large number of amateur astronomers around the world who own their own telescopes and spend hundreds of hours observing the skies. And you find that these people tend to be the most skeptical of all about UFO claims. Because they know the sky really well, and spend a lot of time looking into it, they are very familiar with what is out there... and though they see many unusual things in the sky, they are able to identify them without recourse to unknown, unidentified causes.

In response to a question about "official positions from the Vatican" about extraterrestrial life, I wrote to him:

There are no "official Vatican positions" on such topics. Nor is it a new idea; you can find people talking about this over the last thousand years… I have no idea how the Church would respond. It has been the subject of any number of science fiction stories; most of them not very good, I'm afraid.

Finally, some of his material appears to have originated in an article that appeared in a British newspaper in 2005, apparently referring to something called "The Jesus Seed". When he asked me about it, I replied:

Virtually everything in this article (about me at least) is wrong... sometimes in trivial ways (I'm not a Star Trek fan), sometimes in important ways (nothing I said in my Catholic Truth Society booklet is new, much less controversial). Some of it might simply be the author's honest misunderstanding of what I was trying to say, because he read it in the light of his own unshakable prejudices… But most of it is pure invention on his part.

(A few trivial words in the above quotes have been altered so that they make sense in the context. I cannot possibly see how he can derive the conclusions purported to come from me, in the light of these direct statements I wrote to him.)

 

[Postvieww]

Yep, I read of them tormenting people, and infesting herds of swine, and generally behaving badly. I don't see any mention of Flying Saucers, or any instances of demons doing anything that isn't petty , smarmy, and childish. The demons described by eschatology buffs are generally far, far scarier than those described in the Bible.

Quite a jump from there to Flying Saucers, isn't there?

I got the number from MUFON, the oldest and best regarded private UFO investigative group in existence.

Far easier to simply believe that they're all Flying Saucers driven either by Spacemen or demons. (Or Klingons. Or talking animals. Or whatever else suits your fancy.)

And will be as long as people can look up, point, and say "what is that?" Just be mindful that a "UFO" is a zillion or so times more likely to be the American Airlines shuttle from DCA to JFK than a Flying Saucer being driven by either demons or Space Men from the planet Zorch.

From Catholic Answers:

"The Vatican did not name a telescope Lucifer. The Vatican Observatory shares space (no pun intended) with other organizations and groups. The Vatican Observatory does not own each piece of equipment nor can it give official names or nicknames to things it does not own. Another group installed a telescope it nicknamed Lucifer.

Its a telescope built by the Max Planck Institute for extraterrestrial physics and according to their website it stands for LBT Near Infrared Spectroscopic Utility with Camera and Integral Field Unit for Extragalactic Research. It is noted on the website that its official abbreviation has been changed to LUCI."

By the by, here's what Brother Guy Consolmagno, SJ, said about all this stuff on his web site (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html):

Br. Guy Consolmagno, the Vatican, Alien Extraterrestrial UFOs, and stuff...
The title is designed to reach anyone who has heard about me from a web site or book purporting to express my views on these subjects.

About a year ago, an author (whom I will not name or link to) conducted an extensive interview with me by email. I thought he was a legitimate journalist. However, seeing the ways in which he has twisted, misquoted, and invented utter falsehoods from the things I said, I have come to suspect that he is either a knave or a fool.

There are no Vatican secrets about UFOs. Neither I nor anyone I know has any evidence that extraterrestrials exist. We do not believe that "Jesus is a hybrid" or any of the other bizarre claims that this author makes. He is either seriously deluded, or a deliberate con-man.

Let me phrase this as strongly as I can: I do not know of any credible evidence at all that there has ever been contact of any form between extraterrestrial aliens and Earth. Period. I cannot imagine a circumstance where such contact could be kept secret for very long. And I say this, not only as an active astronomer for 40 years, but also as someone who knows lots of people in the SETI community (who would love to have such evidence), and as someone who's been an officer in the American Astronomical Society and in the International Astronomical Union. If there was something like this going on, we'd all be talking about it. There isn't, and we aren't.

That is a quote taken directly from one of the emails that I sent this author!

Here are some other things that I sent him in my emails:

… talking about Unidentified Flying Objects, which is to say, odd things seen in the sky, I have no problem with that. There are objects in the sky, presumably flying, that many people have a hard time identifying. "UFO" is certainly the right term for that! But once you insist that they are evidence of aliens, or government conspiracies, or for that matter once you try to fit these phenomena into any other preconceived notion, they are no longer "unidentified" -- you have implicitly identified them. And I am highly skeptical of any proposed identifications that rely on aliens, extraterrestrials, conspiracies, etc. … We have no artifacts from UFOs in our labs. We have nothing to test. Thus my skepticism.

I also note that there is a population of very skilled observers who spend a lot of time outdoors at night, without any connection with (or control by) the government or any other "official" institution: these are the large number of amateur astronomers around the world who own their own telescopes and spend hundreds of hours observing the skies. And you find that these people tend to be the most skeptical of all about UFO claims. Because they know the sky really well, and spend a lot of time looking into it, they are very familiar with what is out there... and though they see many unusual things in the sky, they are able to identify them without recourse to unknown, unidentified causes.

In response to a question about "official positions from the Vatican" about extraterrestrial life, I wrote to him:

There are no "official Vatican positions" on such topics. Nor is it a new idea; you can find people talking about this over the last thousand years… I have no idea how the Church would respond. It has been the subject of any number of science fiction stories; most of them not very good, I'm afraid.

Finally, some of his material appears to have originated in an article that appeared in a British newspaper in 2005, apparently referring to something called "The Jesus Seed". When he asked me about it, I replied:

Virtually everything in this article (about me at least) is wrong... sometimes in trivial ways (I'm not a Star Trek fan), sometimes in important ways (nothing I said in my Catholic Truth Society booklet is new, much less controversial). Some of it might simply be the author's honest misunderstanding of what I was trying to say, because he read it in the light of his own unshakable prejudices… But most of it is pure invention on his part.

(A few trivial words in the above quotes have been altered so that they make sense in the context. I cannot possibly see how he can derive the conclusions purported to come from me, in the light of these direct statements I wrote to him.)

Jipsah said:

Yep, I read of them tormenting people, and infesting herds of swine, and generally behaving badly. I don't see any mention of Flying Saucers, or any instances of demons doing anything that isn't petty , smarmy, and childish. The demons described by eschatology buffs are generally far, far scarier than those described in the Bible.


Fallen Angels are not demons and demons are not fallen angels!

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I agree Revelation is not in complete chronological order. Even so there are some events laid out in an order.

Yup, I agree there is a chronological order, but understanding that order in real-time requires jumping back and forth within the text.

Jesus returns Revelation 19:11

I think this is one of those tricky perspective issues. In this chapter Jesus rides down from Heaven to defeat the armies of man gathered against him. But the "bride of Christ" is there with him, celebrating the marriage supper of the lamb. Then, they go back down to Earth to fight the battle of Armageddon, for which the Kings of the Earth have been gathered together.

So, if Revelation 19 is describing the return of Jesus, then how is it that the saints are already there with him when he rides down on his white horse? No, I think the Revelation is describing the battle of Armageddon here. Revelation 16 shows the 6th angel pouring his vial, which somehow allows the kings of the earth to gather together against God. Gather against what? To fight against an invisible spirit? No. By this time New Jerusalem must have descended from Heaven, thus giving the leaders of the world both a physical target and the impetus to gather together to fight against it. Otherwise you've got the armies of the earth gathering on a field for no apparent reason which doesn't make any sense. There must be something physical and tangible which they can see to cause them to gather because that's just how humans are. Armies won't gather without a target. How will they know where to point their guns and rockets?

The 7th vial is "poured into the air", which is the battle of Armageddon itself, where Jesus destroys his enemies, though even then there is indication that there will mortals who survive the battle.

Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to ignore the 1000 years in your scenario. You appear to move the New Jerusalem ahead at least 1000 years to the time of Christ’s return and leave out the binding and release of satan, the 1000 year reign and the creation of the new heaven and earth Revelation21:1.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. My understanding of the time line is that Jesus returns at the last trumpet. His return is accompanied by New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven. The saints go up to celebrate the marriage supper of the lamb while the vials of wrath are being poured out on a disobedient world below. The last vial is the battle of Armageddon, which shows Jesus and his saints riding down to fight the battle, but "down" from where? I suggest they are in the New Jerusalem at this time, for the marriage supper of the Lamb, as it hovers over the surface of the Earth while the vials are being poured out. Daniel 12:11-12 describes a 45 day period beyond the length of the final 7 year period, which I suggest is the time at which the vials are being poured out

The armies are defeated and the false prophet/Beast are locked away, thus starting the 1000 year reign. Revelation 21 gives a lengthy description of New Jerusalem and near the end describes the "kings of the Earth" bringing their glory into it. New Jerusalem is there, on the Earth, for the 1000 year reign.

Please explain how you make this leap. Jesus is in control from the moment of His return throughout eternity. I understand what you have said I just don’t understand how you got there.

I don't understand the leap which you see in my reasoning, but I'll try to re-clarify my position. The issue was one of timing regardless of the chapter and verse numbers next to the information, meaning that something which happens in chapter 21 does not necessarily describe an event which comes after chapter 11. The chapter numbers and verses are helpful for organizing the information into a system for easy reference but they are superfluous to the content of the information.

Both Revelation 11 and Revelation 21 describe God establishing authority over the world.

REV 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

REV 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

These are references to the same event, but from different perspectives. Otherwise, IF you say that, in real time, the events of chapter 21 (the coming down of New Jerusalem) comes AFTER Revelation 11 (the sounding of the 7th trumpet and the return of Jesus) then you must conclude that there are two separate instances where God establishes his final authority over the earth, which makes no sense.

No, New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven along with the Return of Jesus, both of which unequivocally show the establishment of God's kingdom and authority on the earth for the next 1000 years. The armies of the Earth will almost certainly percieve this gigantic "starship" as an alien invasion and will almost certainly associate all the previous disasters of the 7 trumpets as a precursor to their arrival.

This theme was recently illustrated in the movie "The 5th wave" where an alien invasion force first initiated a series of cataclysmic events (like an array of natural disasters and sickness) on the earth before their ground troops invaded. It will be extremely easy for the average person to associate all the various disasters of the 7 trumpets, and then the 7 bowls of wrath with an alien invasion as opposed to the return of the Lord. For the past several decades we've been trained to recognize what an alien invasion will look like, and especially in the past 2 decades. Alien invasion themes are super popular.

Anyway, I look forward to your reply.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Hey DW. Thanks for those fantastic illustrations about the size comparisons of New Jerusalem and the Earth. I don't think I've see it quite so distinctly before. It really is quite amazing, right? I've not heard about the moon thing before. I suppose that could be a valid option. I'm not sure I have any evidence to suggest that it's not a viable possibility, except for my own person opinion that it sounds a little crazy! But, there's lots of stuff related to God that could sound crazy to us. However, I'm more inclined to think the New Jerusalem will probably more likely come from some other dimension into ours (which probably sounds crazy in itself!)

You're welcome, thanks for reading. But I don't think that New Jerusalem is in another dimension. Because why then would God have gone to all the trouble to list the physical specifications of it and then hide it in another dimension.

"The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.​

And why would He even want us to know about it at this time? Could it be because He wanted us to know that we weren't going to be headed for just some wispy sort of spirit world where we'd be floating around in the clouds. God IS Spirit but He went to a lot of trouble to make the big bang so we wouldn't have to be stuck floating around in a non-physical universe. Remember when the demons told Jesus:

“What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?” And the demons begged him, saying, “If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of pigs.”​

Here is an example of spirit beings, who are alien to our world, finding it preferable to inhabiting the physical bodies of swine rather than returning to their previous state. Personally, I think that they should have picked a flock of seagulls but the point is if the spirit world is so cool, why would these guys be begging to live in a heard of beasts?

Jesus also said:

"I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”​

That sounds like we'll be drinking real physical grape juice in a dimension that we're real familiar with.

And yet, the Revelation also talks about the armies of the earth gathering together to fight against God, too. So, are they hiding or gathering? I think there's plenty of room for interpretation here.

They hide at the 6th seal. Then they gather at the 6th vial. They just witnessed billions of saints translated into the sky where billions of angels were sent to gather them. This causes a global show of lights in the stratosphere. Right while they mourn their loss of missing the boat the global earthquake from the 7th trumpet hits and they think that the world is ending right then and there. I would be hiding too if I were them.

Then after the dust settles, the vials begin to fall. At the 6th vial Lucifer, who had been claiming to be Jesus, sends his three best demons to meet with the ten kings of the earth to inform them of what just took place. They tell the kings that the guy who they've come to know as God is actually the Devil himself. And not only that but the real God is on His way to kill everyone with a sharp sword and a wine press. They will become convinced that with mankind's nuclear arsenal combined with demonic ability, it will be possible to kill God. But there are no other options for them, so they "gather" at the place called Armageddon in an ill fated attempt to fight for their lives.

"For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.​

Fair enough, except this happens at the 7th trumpet of the tribulation, right?

Right, we are in agreement. At the 7th trumpet we are no longer included in "the tribes of the earth" anymore, we are in the air.

It talks about the sun being darkened, the moon not giving her light the power of the heavens being shaken etc. It's possible that this is a description of the moon cracking open to expose the triumphant appearance of New Jerusalem, or it could be that New Jerusalem will be so huge that it will block the light from both the sun and the moon, but either way it does appear to be a reference to New Jerusalem.

New Jerusalem will be visible to the naked eye at this point, "and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple", just as we can look up and see the moon from our position on earth. But I'm sorry ES, the Father's House can't come down to earth until after the thousand years are finished. We go to the Father's House, the Father's House can't come here yet.

"In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.​

All these saints are rising to meet their lord in the air, and then what? Do they all disappear suddenly to some alternate dimension where God is waiting? Maybe, but I think the context is pointing to the coming down of New Jerusalem as part of the return of Jesus.

I think that we'll be surprised at how much scripture is fulfilled and how much time we spend while we are in the air with Jesus and the armies of Heaven before we make the trip to the place that He has prepared for us. We will watch all seven vials from a place of safety in the sky Lord in the sky. We will watch Jesus as He says:

“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”
​

Because the thief comes also to steal and to kill and to destroy.

We go to meet him in the air and then into New Jerusalem, which will be hovering over the earth (as your photos suggest).

Nope, I'm sorry if those photos suggested something to you that is not true.

We celebrate the marriage supper of the lamb while the viles of wrath are poured out on a spiritually desolate world below.

Nope, what an awful thought. Having a party up there and drinking the new wine. Right while the wicked are going IN the wine press down on Earth. The marriage supper will come AFTER the vials are finished.

'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked,​

Part of that wrath includes gathering together the armies of the earth. What are they gathering against?

They are gathering to fight God. Lucifer sends out his 3 best demonic angels to tell the 10 kings that the Rider on the white horse is coming to "destroy the destroyers of the earth". Jesus is coming to kill them with a sharp sword, a command that comes from His mouth. Did you notice that? How did they destroy the Earth? By provoking the wrath of God?

"Because of these things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.​

The final bowl of wrath shows Jesus and his followers riding down, just after the marriage supper of the lamb, from some high place to fight against the armies gathered together. All the context points to something which the saints are gathered into and something which the armies of the earth gather against, a something which must be visible to them from their earthly perspective so that they will be able to gather against it.

It only took Gabriel 3.5 minutes to travel from wherever Heaven is, to the surface of the Earth. Jesus and His Armies of Heaven might be quicker because they'll probably take a break before they get to Earth to gather us from the stratosphere and say hi and all that. The 144,000 made it to the Beloved City during a special trip 3.5 days before us and had a little private meeting around the throne where they sang the song of Moses. They are the first fruits and the superheros of the tribulation but the dragon hated their guts. He killed them all as soon as their days ran out. They follow the Lamb, faithful and true, wherever He goes.

"But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.​

When this thing gets going nobody here will be disappointed. The pre tribers, the post tribers and the people who think Jesus will start up the OT all over again during a thousand years on earth will be surprised. But they won't be disappointed. The main thing is that we'll all be on the Right side of the equation. We'll be looking at an Earth at rest from a window of New Jerusalem while taking a break from participating in the Pauline phase of the judgement of the dead. It's going to take a while right? But maybe we'll finish it early, like in 700 years, and then have 300 years of free time just to marvel at the presence of the Lord and at the glory of his might.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Riberra]

They hide at the 6th seal. Then they gather at the 6th vial. They just witnessed billions of saints translated into the sky where billions of angels were sent to gather them. This causes a global show of lights in the stratosphere.
Right while they mourn their loss of missing the boat the global earthquake from the 7th trumpet hits and they think that the world is ending right then and there. I would be hiding too if I were them.

You need to reread Revelation 6:12
The great earthquake comes first ... Your saying that the stars are ''billions of saints translated into the sky'' does not work because the text say -And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth....after the great earthquake -

If you see a rapture to heaven in that passage you need to revise that idea.

A global earthquake like the one mentioned in Revelation 6:12 will surely cause lot of volcanoes around the Earth to wake up....causing lot of smoke and ashes reaching high in the Earth atmosphere...-and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair [during the day], and the moon became as blood [during the night]-;

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Hi Riberra.

I remember you and Keras think the 6th seal is at the beginning of the tribulation.

I'm sure that it's at the end.

You need to reread Revelation 6:12

Thank you for the suggestion.

The great earthquake comes first ... Your saying that the stars are ''billions of saints translated into the sky'' does not work because the text say -And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,-

Nope, I'm saying that the "stars" are billions of angels, one for each of us, coming down to gather us from a much higher altitude. We are the "winter fruit" of untimely figs that are shaken by a gale.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You should be happy Riberra, you found where the rapture is mentioned in Revelation. And a big hint that it will be in the month of January. (Pray that your flight will not be in winter)

Fig Tree = The Commonwealth of Israel or the Israel of God, believers in our Glorious Lord Jesus.

"Like grapes in the wilderness, I found Israel. Like the first fruit on the fig tree in its first season"​

Untimely figs = Everyone who ever died in Christ, plus a numberless multitude of the living.

"One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe"​

Its Winter Fruit = Everyone who ever died in Christ, plus a numberless multitude of the living.

"the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing"​

She = His Bride has made herself ready.

"Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb"​

Shaken of a Mighty Wind = "And I will raise him up on the last day"

"And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind"​

 

[Riberra]

Nope, I'm saying that the "stars" are billions of angels, one for each of us, coming down to gather us from a much higher altitude. We are the "winter fruit" of untimely figs that are shaken by a gale.



You should be happy Riberra, you found where the rapture is mentioned in Revelation. And a big hint that it will be in the month of January. (Pray that your flight will not be in winter)

Fig Tree = The Commonwealth of Israel or the Israel of God, believers in our Glorious Lord Jesus.

"Like grapes in the wilderness, I found Israel. Like the first fruit on the fig tree in its first season"​

Untimely figs = Everyone who ever died in Christ, plus a numberless multitude of the living.

"One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe"​

Its Winter Fruit = Everyone who ever died in Christ, plus a numberless multitude of the living.

"the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing"​

She = His Bride has made herself ready.

"Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb"​

Shaken of a Mighty Wind = "And I will raise him up on the last day"

Hi !

The Last Day of our actual civilization will happen unto the Coming of Jesus.

I agree with you that these passages does not support a pre-tribulation rapture to Heaven... only a gathering to meet Jesus in the air at His Coming just a few moments before that Jesus will destroy the unrepentant sinners (all those with the mark of the beast +the world armies )assembled at Armageddon .

Edited to add.
I believe that there will be 2 gathering made by the angels in that day.
1-All those with the mark of the beast will be taken and gathered at Armageddon for their destruction.(Luke 17:34-37)(Revelation 19:17-21)
2-The elect (resurrected Saints and the believers alive and remain to meet Jesus in the air.

 

[Dave Watchman]

The Last Day of our actual civilization will happen unto the Coming of Jesus.

Agreed.

In my view it's also the "last day" for salvation because on the day after that there's no second chances.

Edited to add.
I believe that there will be 2 gathering made by the angels in that day.
1-All those with the mark of the beast will be taken and gathered at Armageddon for their destruction.(Luke 17:34-37)
2-The elect (resurrected Saints and the believers alive and remain to meet Jesus in the air.

Interesting.

Blessed and holy are the ones who participate in the airborne gathering.

But woe to those who are gathered by the demonic angels.

Peaceful rest of the Sabbath.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

You're welcome, thanks for reading. But I don't think that New Jerusalem is in another dimension. Because why then would God have gone to all the trouble to list the physical specifications of it and then hide it in another dimension.

Hidden for a time, only. And who knows that whatever other dimension in which it's hidden isn't also something physical. I think "dimension" probably sounds weirder than it is but the fact is that there are aspects of reality that we're not aware of. But it's not a topic that I feel strongly about. I'm pretty open to New Jerusalem either being contained within the moon or sitting in another dimension waiting it's turn to appear in our linear time-line or perhaps some other theory as yet unexplored.

And why would He even want us to know about it at this time? Could it be because He wanted us to know that we weren't going to be headed for just some wispy sort of spirit world where we'd be floating around in the clouds. God IS Spirit but He went to a lot of trouble to make the big bang so we wouldn't have to be stuck floating around in a non-physical universe. Remember when the demons told Jesus:

“What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?” And the demons begged him, saying, “If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of pigs.”
Here is an example of spirit beings, who are alien to our world, finding it preferable to inhabiting the physical bodies of swine rather than returning to their previous state. Personally, I think that they should have picked a flock of seagulls but the point is if the spirit world is so cool, why would these guys be begging to live in a heard of beasts?

I think the appearance of New Jerusalem will represent a pretty major shift in how God operates. It will be the end of this current phase of God's experiment with humanity as we move into the next phase of our education. As it is now, we can access the spirit world through the Holy Spirit, but it's difficult. It feels like we're fighting a losing battle. Even those of us actively seeking out God's spirit still find ourselves struggling with the flesh. I think there will be some elements of that even after the return of Jesus, but our access to the spiritual will be much more open. We'll have new bodies. Jesus will be there with us. God will be the light of New Jerusalem.

That sounds like we'll be drinking real physical grape juice in a dimension that we're real familiar with.

Agreed. I think there will still be plenty of interaction between the physical and the spiritual. I believe the NT account strongly suggests that the saints will be in charge of the world during the 1000 year reign. It will be our responsibility to teach the nations what it means to follow God and we'll finally have the power to effect real change, but it will still be a responsibility. We'll still need to think, make decisions, and interact with the mortals who survived the 7 bowls of wrath and who wil repopulate the earth during that 1000 year period. I believe the new Bodies we'll be given will very much be able to interact with the physical world (like eating and drinking).

They hide at the 6th seal. Then they gather at the 6th vial.

The timing of these events doesn't make much sense to me. If they're hiding at the 6th seal (presumably because they are afraid of God), and the 7 trumpets of the tribulation happen at the 7th seal, at which time there is the AC setting himself up as the ultimate authority, causing people to worship him, causing craft to prosper, etc, then how is it that they've come out of hiding for all of this?

New Jerusalem will be visible to the naked eye at this point, "and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple", just as we can look up and see the moon from our position on earth. But I'm sorry ES, the Father's House can't come down to earth until after the thousand years are finished. We go to the Father's House, the Father's House can't come here yet.

Revelation 21 describes the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven. This suggests that it will be more than just visible waaaaaay up there in outer space where the moon used to be. Also, as I suggested in a previous post, against what are these kings of the earth gathering? They'd hardly see any sense in gathering against the moon, even if it has cracked open to reveal a gigantic starship. What would be the point in gathering armies together to fight against something as far away as the moon? It makes no sense, unless these moon-sized object, as the description suggests, comes down "from" heaven.

It also doesn't make much sense for this overwhelming display of God;s kingdom to remain aloof hundreds of thousands of miles away from humanity when the description from Revelation 11 and Revelation 21 describes how the "Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdom's of God" and "the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

Also, at the end of chapter 21, which gives the clearest description of New Jerusalem, it talks about the Kings of the Earth going in and out to bring their glory to God. It also talks about how to unclean person will be able to go in. I believe this is another reference to the saints ruling the earth. The saints become the kings of the earth in God's new set-up and we bring glory to him, just like Jesus' parable about the talents and how bearing fruit with the responsibilities they were given made God happy.

It seems contrary to the spirit of teaching, leading, and caring for the remaining inhabitants of the earth that their leader's home would be hundreds of thousands of miles away from them, out where the old moon used to be. I'm willing to consider that possibility, but it is contrary to my understanding of good sense.

I think that we'll be surprised at how much scripture is fulfilled and how much time we spend while we are in the air with Jesus and the armies of Heaven before we make the trip to the place that He has prepared for us. We will watch all seven vials from a place of safety in the sky Lord in the sky. We will watch Jesus as He says:

“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”
Because the thief comes also to steal and to kill and to destroy.

I think there may be some confusion here about the various metaphors related to being a thief. Jesus said that what belongs to God belongs to him, which is everything; there is nothing for him to steal. He also said that he had not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. Jesus compared his return (not himself) to a thief only in these sense that his return will take many by surprise. It's not that he really is a thief (i.e. one who steals and destroys), but rather that is how his return will come across to many. Jesus says he comes like a thief at the same time he says, "if the owner of the house had been watching he would not be surprised by the thief". The context was one of preparedness and awareness.

Jesus' reference to Satan as a thief was not about awareness or surprise, but rather the motivation behind satan's behavior. Satan really does want to steal and destroy humanity's relationship with God.

As for spending time in the air, will we just be floating there for however long it takes to pour out the vials? It seems contrary to the spirit of the marriage supper of the lamb being described in Revelation 19. The description shows that this party had already been going on and then, for the last bowl of wrath they come down from their heavenly perspective to the battle of Armageddon.

It makes no sense that these people will be partiyng in empty air. The context suggests that this party will be happening in New Jerusalem.

Nope, what an awful thought. Having a party up there and drinking the new wine. Right while the wicked are going IN the wine press down on Earth. The marriage supper will come AFTER the vials are finished.

Why should it be awful that we celebrate while the world is being punished? The angels themselves, as they're pouring out their bowls, praise God for his righteousness and judgment against a disobedient world. Why should we not also praise God, not only for giving us eternal life, but for finally bringing his kingdom of justice and righteousness to the Earth?

Also, again, Revelation 19 starts with the marriage supper of the lamb, and then finished with the saints going down with Jesus for the final bowl (i.e. the battle of Armageddon). They MUST have been celebrating while the previous 6 bowls were being poured out. Otherwise the chapter makes no sense.

They are gathering to fight God. Lucifer sends out his 3 best demonic angels to tell the 10 kings that the Rider on the white horse is coming to "destroy the destroyers of the earth". Jesus is coming to kill them with a sharp sword, a command that comes from His mouth. Did you notice that? How did they destroy the Earth? By provoking the wrath of God?

But, the question I asked wasn't about why they gather, but rather what is it that they are gathering against? If there is no New Jerusalem come down from Heaven, then they'd be gathering on an empty field, for what? Guns, tanks, bombs, fighter jets etc; those are the weapons of the Kings of the earth. They won't be shooting their guns at some distant object in space. They won't be sending fighter jets into space. It's possible they could launch missiles into space, but then again the "armies of the earth" hardly need to gather into one place to do that.

There is no point for such a gathering unless there is something to gather against.

I look forward to your response.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

A global earthquake like the one mentioned in Revelation 6:12 will surely cause lot of volcanoes around the Earth to wake up....causing lot of smoke and ashes reaching high in the Earth atmosphere...-and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair [during the day], and the moon became as blood [during the night]-;

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

I have also wondered about the seals and how they fit into a discernable timeline. They are listed in a numbered order which, by definition, suggests some kind of linear interpretation in that one must come after the other.

However, I think there is an alternative ways to interpret these seals. I think the ordering itself isn't what is significant. The numbers are there to show us that there are 7 concepts or principles which are relevant to our understanding. For example, if I walk into an auditorium or stadium which uses numbered seats, it is not a requirement that seat number 1 must be filled before seat number 435 can be used. The numbering system is there to help with organizing and to let us quickly know how many seats are available in general. I will end up missing the point of organization and cause a delay to the show if I insist that each seat must be filled in order of their number just because they are numbered.

The Revelation does describe these seals being opened one after the other but there doesn't appear to be any indication that the order of these seals is relevant to what the seals themselves attempt to communicate. As Riberra has pointed out, the 6th seal appears to describe world wide catastrophies which are consistent with the bowls of wrath, and yet here it is happening before the even the Tribulation starts.

 

[Riberra]

The Revelation does describe these seals being opened one after the other but there doesn't appear to be any indication that the order of these seals is relevant to what the seals themselves attempt to communicate. As Riberra has pointed out, the 6th seal appears to describe world wide catastrophies which are consistent with the bowls of wrath, and yet here it is happening before the even the Tribulation starts.

Looking at the reaction of the people and we can see that the 6 Th seal earthquake and the 7Th Vial earthquake will happen at two different time.
-At the opening of the 6Th SEAL people are hiding in fear.
-At the 7Th VIAL people blaspheme God Revelation 16:17-21

 

[keras]

The Sixth Seal IS the Lord's Day of wrath.
It will be the event that commences all the rest of the prophesied end times, leading up to the Return of Jesus.
This worldwide disaster will set the scene for the formation of a One World Govt, that within a few years will be controlled by a dictator. He will come to the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, established in all the area of the holy Land, that is not a part of the OWG and make a 7 year treaty of peace with them. This commences the last 7 years of this age.
Therefore, the Sixth Seal must happen first and at least 10 years before the Return.
All a scriptural, logical and coherent sequence of events.

 

[keras]

I have also wondered about the seals and how they fit into a discernable timeline. They are listed in a numbered order which, by definition, suggests some kind of linear interpretation in that one must come after the other.

Isn't it plain that the first five Seals are already open?
We have and still do experience wars, famines, plagues and economic crashes. How many more of those are needed to fulfil what the four horsemen do? Obviously the fifth Seal is open, all the Christian martyrs since Stephen and still being added to today, await their vindication.
But the Sixth Seal cosmic signs and earthly disasters, is next. The Lord will send His fiery wrath on His appointed Day. Habakkuk 2:3

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

This reminds me of the end times group prior to the millennium. Ashtar Command.
They claimed the return of Jesus Christ Sonanda, Sonanda for "ascended". That he piloted a mother ship and that and a bunch of other UFO's were watching over earth. At the turn of the century they would take those who were Jesus' people up with them so that they'd not suffer the catastrophes that were to hit earth due to bad aliens.

I don't foresee Jesus returning in such a way. Rather, I think if he did descend from the clouds there would be those that would think it a hologram hoax.
Not long ago there were these really odd sounds that people thought was a Shofar resonating in different areas of the world. And that was foretelling the second coming.

I never heard anything but what was recorded and played in YouTube.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The Sixth Seal IS the Lord's Day of wrath.

Hi Keras. It certainly does appear that way. And yet the 7th seal launches into a description of the 7 trumpets of the tribulation. If you are suggesting that these seals describe an order of events, then it doesn't make sense to me that God's wrath would come first, and then tribulation. To my understanding of other information in the Revelation and gospels, that order is backward. The final bowl of wrath is the battle of Armageddon, where in Revelation 19 we see the saints wrapping-up the marriage supper of the lamb and descending with Jesus to fight in this last battle. It doesn't make sense that the Great Tribulation would come after all this, but if the 6th seal represents God's wrath, and if the seals do dictate a linear time-line, then all this must happen before the Great Tribulation (i.e. the trumps of the 7th seal).

But all that is not a problem if the scrolls are not dictating a time-line, but rather exploring spiritual concepts (or themes) of the Revelation.

Isn't it plain that the first five Seals are already open?

Yes, again, it does appear that way, which I think lends further credence to the idea of these seals representing themes rather than a timeline. For example, which came first in the history of humanity? Jesus conquering on the what horse, war, greed, or death? Attempting to force these concepts into a time-line where one must come after the other misses the point of what these themes are meant to communicate.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I don't foresee Jesus returning in such a way. Rather, I think if he did descend from the clouds there would be those that would think it a hologram hoax.

There do seem to be a large variety of theories out there and I've heard of the hologram hoax. But I think the return of Jesus will be unlike any kind of hoax. It will be such that even the most staunch conspiracy theorist will not be able to deny that it is real. But, they will still be able to deny that it is God. Almost certainly, the majority of the world remaining will think it is an alien invasion and they may even do so with a bit of relief. Even in those times, "aliens" will probably be easier on their pride than a "god" whom they've been stubbornly resisting all along.

That's pretty much what's happening in the world today, where any aspect of intelligent design is explained-away with "science". (I put science in quotes because I don't think real science conflicts with God). This comes across to me as rather ironic, since people seem to be promoting the idea that the more complex our reality is discovered to be, the less need there is for any intelligence behind it. The complexity itself becomes the explanation for why it is so complex and a loop of circular reasoning traps them in their own craftiness!

Anyway, an alien invasion will be the easier, more likely explanation for the return of Jesus for those who remain. Who knows, though. Maybe such an event will be enough to finally convince some people that God is real and active, but by the time New Jerusalem does appear, coming down from Heaven, there will only be heathens remaining on the earth. As the Angel says at that time, "Let there be time no more". The chance for repentance will have passed by then. All of God's followers will have been taken up at the 7th trumpet (which heralds the return of Jesus along with New Jerusalem) and the bowls of wrath will be poured out on a disobedient world.

 

[keras]

It certainly does appear that way. And yet the 7th seal launches into a description of the 7 trumpets of the tribulation.

The man imposed chapter divisions of the Bible often cause confusion!
The Seventh Seal is a time gap, nothing more, nothing less.
A gap of about a half hour in heaven. We are told by two witnesses, Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, that a day in heaven is equivalent to 1000 years on earth. Therefore when the Seventh Seal is opened, after the Sixth Seal 'about 20 years' will elapse before the Return of Jesus. [a half hour is 1/48th of a day in heaven = 1/48th of 1000 years on earth, that is: 20.8 years]

If you are suggesting that these seals describe an order of events, then it doesn't make sense to me that God's wrath would come first, and then tribulation. To my understanding of other information in the Revelation and gospels, that order is backward. The final bowl of wrath is the battle of Armageddon, where in Revelation 19 we see the saints wrapping-up the marriage supper of the lamb and descending with Jesus to fight in this last battle. It doesn't make sense that the Great Tribulation would come after all this, but if the 6th seal represents God's wrath, and if the seals do dictate a linear time-line, then all this must happen before the Great Tribulation (i.e. the trumps of the 7th seal).

The sequence of Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls, as given by Jesus to John in Revelation is logical, coherent and supported by all the prophets. Don't mess with it!

But all that is not a problem if the scrolls are not dictating a time-line, but rather exploring spiritual concepts (or themes) of the Revelation.

Another rabbit trail. Why spiritualize plain prophetic statements about events that can be literally fulfilled?

 

[Psalm3704]

I have also wondered about the seals and how they fit into a discernable timeline. They are listed in a numbered order which, by definition, suggests some kind of linear interpretation in that one must come after the other.

The Seals are the fulfillment of the birth pangs Christ spoke about in the Olivet Discourse. They're the final signs and events leading up to the commencement of the 70th week.








.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Well, it's not really a thread about the seals so I'll get us back on track. Has anyone seen the movie, "The 5th wave"? It's a fairly recent movie. I watched it on a plane but was pretty tired so didn't really enjoy it. But after making a few posts on this thread I was reminded of it (I commented on it earlier but the post was long so I suspect no one read it).

In that movie there is an alien invasion, but before the aliens themselves invade, the cause a series of disasters (i.e. the various "waves" of assault) to prep the planet for an easier coup. The disasters included a giant EMP (knocking out all the electricity), earthquakes (and resulting tsunami), disease and then the actual invasion.

I realize it's just a movie for entertainment, but I think the similarity to the Revelation is significant; all these various disasters will happen and then the invasion!