Responses to Flat Earth Challenges

coffee4u

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I don't need to see any videos.
Since flat earth is being claimed to be Biblical than all I ask for is one plain verse saying that the earth is flat.

God says that he created in 6 days.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
If us believing the earth was flat was important to God or biblical than he would have also provided us at least one verse stating that it was flat.


And if you can't provide any, then flat earth is not biblical teaching.
It could be some person's teaching, but certainly not God's.
You don't need science you just need the Bible.

 
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Phil G

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I don't need to see any videos.
Since flat earth is being claimed to be Biblical than all I ask for is one plain verse saying that the earth is flat.

God says that he created in 6 days.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
If us believing the earth was flat was important to God or biblical than he would have also provided us at least one verse stating that it was flat.


And if you can't provide any, then flat earth is not biblical teaching.
It could be some person's teaching, but certainly not God's.
You don't need science you just need the Bible.

Sadly your clear reasoning will produce nothing but fuzzy incoherent explanations which will have nothing to do with what the Bible really says or the evidence on the ground...so to speak!
 
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Strathos

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Generation after generation of Hebrews were able to find it. I guess that just makes you so much smarter than they ever were. Gratz on that, I suppose.

Even more generations of Christians all agreed it was round.

Except, between the two of us concerning the shape of the earth, I'm the only one to admit I was indeed wrong, and even chose to alter my entire paradigm, knowing the ridicule it would bring. That issue is demonstrably yours, not mine.

There is nothing that would convince you the earth is round. Whereas I'd be convinced it was flat if you could show me the edge.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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Whereas I'd be convinced it was flat if you could show me the edge.

Funny nobody is able to do that. What is the current excuse ?

Would make the trip with and upload some totally chilling edge of the world footage but I still haven’t finished current season of Mandalorian so maybe later.....
 
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Phil G

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Funny nobody is able to do that. What is the current excuse ?

Would make the trip with and upload some totally chilling edge of the world footage but I still haven’t finished current season of Mandalorian so maybe later.....

Current excuse is 'The Elite' will shoot you if you try to find the edge!
 
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Timtofly

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No, this is bending Scripture to your own purpose. There is a big difference between the Creator and His creation. God is spirit who exists outside of time and space. His creation is not spirit and exists within the confines of time and space. We are all in the presence of God all the time. That takes faith to believe day by day but the evidence is His Holy Spirit in our lives. He is our guarantee of our salvation.

With the earth however, His Word does not reveal its shape but its shape is obviously physical not spiritual. So physical evidence is legitimate. A physical dome rotating over a flat or even curved earth rather than spherical earth does not fit the physical evidence. Stars do not rotate above the earth around a single pole. There are two poles around which the stars are seen to rotate. I have watched videos where flat earth believers try to explain this by saying there are two rotating sky domes or even a rotating sky sphere but they don't fit the evidence either.

What I see when it comes to the island in my photos is very consistent. The horizon of the sea obscures some of the side profile of the island at lower elevation, or a further distance even at a higher elevation. This must mean the sea is curved. Flat earth believers claim to be able to see hundreds of miles when we shouldn't if the earth is spherical. This is also using what they call 'physical evidence'. But the evidence I see shows this to be untrue. I can't even see below about 130 feet above sea level at a distance of 21 miles with a viewing elevation of 20 feet above sea level. Some people try to then claim the earth is curved but still not anything like a sphere but this doesn't fit with other evidence in the sky.

It all leads to a situation where, in order to believe the earth is flat, a person has to deny the physiical evidence and put their faith in those who claim it to be so. They point to non-definitive Scrptures as their evidence in the Bible and then they point to contradictory physical evidence and say 'proven' when it is anything but!

As for the Lord's return, I agree that when Jesus returns physically it will be an event like no other but Zechariah 14 indicates people will die when He does. Millenium or not, this is the end of people ruling themselves on earth.
"Bending Scripture" is an interesting metaphor. My job is to straighten the curve, not bend it. People will believe and accept whatever their mind gives them as an option. We do not control our brain and mind. It controls us and who we are. God only tells us to captivate and withold certain thoughts getting rid of them as soon as possible. Pointing how humans can deny truth is not "bending Scripture".

There is no physical dome over the earth. The atmosphere forms a round shape because it is not solid, not because it is solid. If it was solid, we would never be able to leave the atmosphere. The question is do we ever leave the firmament mentioned in Genesis 1? The sun and stars are still in the firmament area of reality. What are we looking through or sending rockets through? Is their actually an area of "vacuum" holding more water above the sun and stars (angels), and other huge planetary objects? Is there still a fluid "lense" (water) at the top of earth below actual heaven? So the bottom of heaven is separated from the firmament (a vacuum) by miles of water (gas). Then the firmament (fixed vacuum) where the sun, stars (angels), and planets are. Then the atmosphere that sets on top of a flat earth. Then land, and below land whatever under the earth consists of. Antarctica is not "down under". It is on the sides, the four corners of the earth. Are earthlings afraid to look at earth as "being square"? Why is "round" such a popular shape?
 
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Phil G

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"Bending Scripture" is an interesting metaphor. My job is to straighten the curve, not bend it. People will believe and accept whatever their mind gives them as an option. We do not control our brain and mind. It controls us and who we are. God only tells us to captivate and withold certain thoughts getting rid of them as soon as possible. Pointing how humans can deny truth is not "bending Scripture".

Bending Scripture is twisting the text to say something it isn't. Your example was not a 'case in point' but an out of context use of the biblical text which has no bearing on physical evidence of the physical world. Now you seem to be equating spherical earth concept with thoughts we should get rid of as told to us by God. The reality is He has not said anything in His word about getting rid of thoughts about a supposed deception of a spherical earth.
 
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Timtofly

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I don't need to see any videos.
Since flat earth is being claimed to be Biblical than all I ask for is one plain verse saying that the earth is flat.

God says that he created in 6 days.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
If us believing the earth was flat was important to God or biblical than he would have also provided us at least one verse stating that it was flat.


And if you can't provide any, then flat earth is not biblical teaching.
It could be some person's teaching, but certainly not God's.
You don't need science you just need the Bible.
God does not teach us the earth is a globe in the middle of nowhere either. God left the shape of the earth to human free will.
 
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Timtofly

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Bending Scripture is twisting the text to say something it isn't. Your example was not a 'case in point' but an out of context use of the biblical text which has no bearing on physical evidence of the physical world. Now you seem to be equating spherical earth concept with thoughts we should get rid of as told to us by God. The reality is He has not said anything in His word about getting rid of thoughts about a supposed deception of a spherical earth.
God did say His own followers would be deceived by Satan. It is not in the water we drink. Can you think of another way, that has nothing to do with spiritual deception? There are millions of humans who are not spiritually deceived by Satan. How are those millions deceived by Satan?
 
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Phil G

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"Bending Scripture" is an interesting metaphor. My job is to straighten the curve, not bend it. People will believe and accept whatever their mind gives them as an option. We do not control our brain and mind. It controls us and who we are. God only tells us to captivate and withold certain thoughts getting rid of them as soon as possible. Pointing how humans can deny truth is not "bending Scripture".

There is no physical dome over the earth. The atmosphere forms a round shape because it is not solid, not because it is solid. If it was solid, we would never be able to leave the atmosphere. The question is do we ever leave the firmament mentioned in Genesis 1? The sun and stars are still in the firmament area of reality. What are we looking through or sending rockets through? Is their actually an area of "vacuum" holding more water above the sun and stars (angels), and other huge planetary objects? Is there still a fluid "lense" (water) at the top of earth below actual heaven? So the bottom of heaven is separated from the firmament (a vacuum) by miles of water (gas). Then the firmament (fixed vacuum) where the sun, stars (angels), and planets are. Then the atmosphere that sets on top of a flat earth. Then land, and below land whatever under the earth consists of. Antarctica is not "down under". It is on the sides, the four corners of the earth. Are earthlings afraid to look at earth as "being square"? Why is "round" such a popular shape?

In answer to your edited post, none of what you say is confirmed in Scripture. It is merely conjecture. It is also against the physical evidence such as expeditions circling Antarctica (something even tourists can do).
 
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Phil G

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God did say His own followers would be deceived by Satan. It is not in the water we drink. Can you think of another way, that has nothing to do with spiritual deception? There are millions of humans who are not spiritually deceived by Satan. How are those millions deceived by Satan?

Now what are you talking about? Keep going like this we will get into a philosophical discussion about what is reality and how do we know our physical world is real?

In order to ascertain the shape of the earth, human beings have only our abilty to seek knowledge to understand. Flat earth believers try to use their own physical 'evidence' to prove their concept. Those videos inevitably use false information which is often provably wrong. When this is pointed out, they either refuse to discuss it or end up meandering in endless rabbit holes in order to frustrate clear reasoning. I suspect you are in the latter camp.
 
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Timtofly

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Now what are you talking about? Keep going like this we will get into a philosophical discussion about what is reality and how do we know our physical world is real?

In order to ascertain the shape of the earth, human beings have only our abilty to seek knowledge to understand. Flat earth believers try to use their own physical 'evidence' to prove their concept. Those videos inevitably use false information which is often provably wrong. When this is pointed out, they either refuse to discuss it or end up meandering in endless rabbit holes in order to frustrate clear reasoning. I suspect you are in the latter camp.
The only reasoning I am frustrating is that which goes against God's Word.
 
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Modern or ancient, every culture operates within a certain cosmology or understanding of the universe. This cosmology sets the context of how a people understand their world and their place in it. With very few exceptions our modern day cosmology is shaped by the scientific discoveries of the past 500 years. Some of these discoveries have greatlyu pset religious understandings and it sometimes takes centuries to reconcile the differences. However, since we live in a culture that has been greatly shaped by the bible and Christian beliefs, it is worthwhile to ask about biblical cosmology.


The biblical understanding of the universe is much the same as that of the surrounding cultures in the ancient Middle East at the time when it was written. Unfortunately, nowhere does the bible attempt to present a comprehensive cosmology, so we are forced to rely upon individual passages and to attempt to understand them in the light of their culture and their history. To begin with, biblical cosmology can be characterized as a three-tiered universe. This strange phrase needs some explanation to make the concept clearer.


First, the surface of the earth is circular and flat except for geographical features like hills and valleys. This of course was the belief of the Sumerians. To these people it was theoretically possible to go high enough to see the entire earth, or to envision a tree tall enough that it could be seen from everywhere on the earth's surface, or even to build a tower to reach the sky. The sky was thought of as a solid bowl, called the firmament, that was upended over the circular earth to enclose a volume in the shape of a hemisphere. I should add that there are some bible verses that speak of the four corners of the earth. This was the view of the Babylonians. This would make the firmament look more like a tent than a bowl. The lights of the sky (sun, moon, planets and stars) were inside the firmament and were very much smaller than we presently understand. In fact they were very much smaller than the earth itself. The mechanism by which these celestial objects moved about is not really explained. The noncanonical Book of Enoch (mentioned in the bible as authoritive and part of the canon of Ethiopian Christians) speaks of gates in the east and west for the sun and the moon to enter and leave. Enoch also suggests that their movements are caused by winds.


What I have just described is the middle tier of the three. Above the firmament are waters. This region is described as heaven, the abode of God and the angels. There were also gates in the firmament to permit water to enter as rain. Below the earth are also waters. This region is described as sheol or hell. There were also gates in the earth to permit water to spring up from below. This three level universe is variously described as either hung on nothing or supported by pillars. Storehouses are also envisioned in heaven for the snow and hail.


How should a of Christian today react to this biblical cosmology? The vast majority of what might be described as 'mainline' Christians are actually quite comfortable with this seeming dichotomy. They recognize that the bible is the product of a relatively unsophisticated people with an entirely pre-scientific understanding of nature, who used poetic or metaphorical language to convey their spiritual understandings. On the other hand there is the minority point of view of those Christians who regard the bible to be inerrant and to be understood literally. This group has been forced into extreme apologetic efforts in order to reconcile the bible with modern scientific understandings.


Speaking personally, I find these apologetic attempts to be rather inventive and very strained. I believe that if the scripture writers and early target audience were to read these apologetics, they would find them extremely puzzling and entirely foreign. This is not to say that they were not intelligent people or not keen observers of nature but rather that that they lacked the intellectual basis to form scientific hypotheses and even the instrumentation to gather accurate data --- all that came about some 2,000 years later.


Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Psalm 104:5 "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."(NIV)

Psalms 93:1 "The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved." (NIV)

Psalms 96:10 "Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." (NIV)

Ecclesiastes 1:5 "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises." (NIV)

Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (NIV)


Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (NIV)


Job 26:11 The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke. (NIV)


Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail," (NIV)

Amos 9:6 The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens and has founded His VAULTED DOME over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth, The LORD is His name. (NASB)


The biblical flat earth cosmology persisted into New Testament times. However by the mid second century Christianity had largely lost its Jewish roots and understandings and had become a gentile Greek speaking movement. Of course the Greeks knew that the earth was a sphere thanks to Eratosthenes who actually was able to calculate the circumference around 240 BC. This knowledge gradually percolated into Jewish and Christian thought especially after Ptolemy introduced his cosmology in the mid second century. The earth became the center of the universe with the moon and then the sun and then the planets, with complicated epicycles, and then the “fixed” stars all in orbit around it. This was the cosmology accepted by Christianity until the revolution of Copernicus, Kepler. Galileo and Newton. This was resisted by Christianity largely on the basis that the earth was not the center of God’s creation. In a relatively short time even this scientific insight was not only accepted but accepted to the extent that the biblical cosmology of a flat earth was rejected. The flat earth was not only rejected but ridiculous arguments were even invented to suggest that the bible was not even suggesting a flat earth at all. Such, all too often, is the way some Christians react to new understandings and insights.
 
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coffee4u

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God does not teach us the earth is a globe in the middle of nowhere either. God left the shape of the earth to human free will.

Exactly, so stop claiming flat earth is a biblical teaching.
 
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coffee4u

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Sadly your clear reasoning will produce nothing but fuzzy incoherent explanations which will have nothing to do with what the Bible really says or the evidence on the ground...so to speak!

So instead of posting scripture showing it's Biblical teaching you instead toss out insults claiming it's my fuzzy incoherent reasoning.

So to be sure I got it straight, you claim that:
1) I should simply believe you because you say so.
2)That I should believe this is scriptural teaching without any scripture.

Sounds reasonable.

I will ask again, can you please post the scriptures that you claim teach flat earth? or
"what the Bible really says".
 
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Phil G

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So instead of posting scripture showing it's Biblical teaching you instead toss out insults claiming it's my fuzzy incoherent reasoning.

So to be sure I got it straight, you claim that:
1) I should simply believe you because you say so.
2)That I should believe this is scriptural teaching without any scripture.

Sounds reasonable.

I will ask again, can you please post the scriptures that you claim teach flat earth? or
"what the Bible really says".

I'm actually agreeing with you. The Bible does not teach a flat earth and the evidence on the ground is that it is spherical. It is sad that the flat earth believers will answer your points with their fuzzy incoherent reasoning, not you.
 
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