Responses to Flat Earth Challenges

[Phil G]

The only reasoning I am frustrating is that which goes against God's Word.

So I will go back to my first post in this thread:

In post #39 I showed 2 photos of an island 21 miles away. The first photo, taken from 20 feet above sea level, when compared to the second taken from 190 feet above sea level, clearly shows that the sea is obscuring the lower parts of the island from this lower elevation. This evidence is consistent no matter what the weather or atmospheric conditions provided the island can be seen.

The evidence is also consistent under magnification and with the naked eye. Many flat earth believers try to claim that if the magnification is high enough, objects which appear to be obscured with the naked eye or lower magnification will be seen. This is clearly false as both pictures are at similar magnification. The only real difference is the elevation from where they were taken.

The only explanation which fits the evidence is that the sea is curved which indicates a spherical earth. There is no other reason unless you want to delve into Satan deliberately deceiving my eyes and mind or my brain and mind controlling me into believing what I want to believe, both of which can only be described as utter nonsense with such clear evidence!

And by the way, saying the earth is spherical is not against God's word. To quote your own post at #91: 'God left the shape of the earth to human free will.'

 

[prodromos]

Watched a lovely sunset a few hours ago, with the clouds above me lit up from underneath by the sun's rays. Just one of so many regular occurrences that are impossible on a flat earth.

 

[Timtofly]

So I will go back to my first post in this thread:

In post #39 I showed 2 photos of an island 21 miles away. The first photo, taken from 20 feet above sea level, when compared to the second taken from 190 feet above sea level, clearly shows that the sea is obscuring the lower parts of the island from this lower elevation. This evidence is consistent no matter what the weather or atmospheric conditions provided the island can be seen.

The evidence is also consistent under magnification and with the naked eye. Many flat earth believers try to claim that if the magnification is high enough, objects which appear to be obscured with the naked eye or lower magnification will be seen. This is clearly false as both pictures are at similar magnification. The only real difference is the elevation from where they were taken.

The evidence is not clear, because your interpretation already clouded the evidence.

The only explanation which fits the evidence is that the sea is curved which indicates a spherical earth. There is no other reason unless you want to delve into Satan deliberately deceiving my eyes and mind or my brain and mind controlling me into believing what I want to believe, both of which can only be described as utter nonsense with such clear evidence!

And by the way, saying the earth is spherical is not against God's word. To quote your own post at #91: 'God left the shape of the earth to human free will.'

Satan has little to do with your mind, unless you are trying to expose Satan. Human understanding already did that for dozens of generations before you. Flat earthers are never going to prove anything. They do not have any authority from God or the Bible to change Satan's deception. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.


It is free will, because being dogmatic about the earth as a planet in a solar system is not wise. No one is forcing a person to choose either option. A flat disk moving through a 14 billion year old universe is just as wrong as a sphere moving through a 14 billion year old universe.

A drop in a visual horizon is an optical illusion. There is a scientific and logical explanation. When looking at a horizon and the light of the sun going through the atmosphere, is not the same as looking straight up through the atmosphere. Have you ever looked at an object through a glass of water? The atmosphere disrupts any ability to look long distances toward a horizon.

Any one who is dogmatic about it, I would ask, "why"? With free will it is just easier to not make waves. I do not have to be dogmatic about it, but that would not make my post any less frustrating to some.

 

[Phil G]

The evidence is not clear, because your interpretation already clouded the evidence.



Satan has little to do with your mind, unless you are trying to expose Satan. Human understanding already did that for dozens of generations before you. Flat earthers are never going to prove anything. They do not have any authority from God or the Bible to change Satan's deception. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.


It is free will, because being dogmatic about the earth as a planet in a solar system is not wise. No one is forcing a person to choose either option. A flat disk moving through a 14 billion year old universe is just as wrong as a sphere moving through a 14 billion year old universe.

A drop in a visual horizon is an optical illusion. There is a scientific and logical explanation. When looking at a horizon and the light of the sun going through the atmosphere, is not the same as looking straight up through the atmosphere. Have you ever looked at an object through a glass of water? The atmosphere disrupts any ability to look long distances toward a horizon.

Any one who is dogmatic about it, I would ask, "why"? With free will it is just easier to not make waves. I do not have to be dogmatic about it, but that would not make my post any less frustrating to some.

Once again you bolt down a rabbit hole and make something simple out to be an 'interpretation' bias on my part when it is very obviously not. How did I 'cloud the evidence'? It's there for all to see.

This is typical flat earth obvuscation. When flat earthers claim it is possible to see further than one should if the earth is spherical, even near sea level, there is no problem but when a spherical earth position is put forward illustrating that this isn't so, it suddenly becomes 'disruption of the atmosphere'!

As I have said, the evidence is the same regardless of atmospheric conditions and under magnification. Looking through a glass of water is not the same as looking through air!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

A drop in a visual horizon is an optical illusion. There is a scientific and logical explanation. When looking at a horizon and the light of the sun going through the atmosphere, is not the same as looking straight up through the atmosphere. Have you ever looked at an object through a glass of water? The atmosphere disrupts any ability to look long distances toward a horizon.

I'd like to see the physics behind that. The distortion of an object seen through a glass of water is due to the refraction of light between media of different refractive indices. Looking horizontally through the atmosphere of a flat Earth would have no change in refractive index - except when there are thermal inversions, which are not the normal situation.

So what is the scientific explanation? A simple explanation or a link to an explanation is fine.

 

[Timtofly]

Once again you bolt down a rabbit hole and make something simple out to be an 'interpretation' bias on my part when it is very obviously not. How did I 'cloud the evidence'? It's there for all to see.

This is typical flat earth obvuscation. When flat earthers claim it is possible to see further than one should if the earth is spherical, even near sea level, there is no problem but when a spherical earth position is put forward illustrating that this isn't so, it suddenly becomes 'disruption of the atmosphere'!

As I have said, the evidence is the same regardless of atmospheric conditions and under magnification. Looking through a glass of water is not the same as looking through air!

It is a known scientific principle that the observer interferes with what is being observed.

So there is no moisture in the atmosphere? I did not say the atmosphere was a glass of water.

 

[Strathos]

I'd like to see the physics behind that. The distortion of an object seen through a glass of water is due to the refraction of light between media of different refractive indices. Looking horizontally through the atmosphere of a flat Earth would have no change in refractive index - except when there are thermal inversions, which are not the normal situation.

So what is the scientific explanation? A simple explanation or a link to an explanation is fine.

Not to mention this whole thing torpedoes their own arguments about Satan showing Jesus all the kingdoms of the world from a mountain and everyone seeing Jesus return only being possible on a flat earth.

 

[Phil G]

It is a known scientific principle that the observer interferes with what is being observed.

So there is no moisture in the atmosphere? I did not say the atmosphere was a glass of water.

I didn't interfere with anything. Of course there is moisture in the atmosphere but its
level isn't consistent and therefore the evidence will not be consistent if the moisture level in the atmosphere is affecting it.

And yet another rabbit hole, I never said that you said the atmosphere was a glass of water. You compared a glass of water with the atmosphere which is not like with like. You brought it up, it's your rabbit hole not mine!

 

[Timtofly]

I'd like to see the physics behind that. The distortion of an object seen through a glass of water is due to the refraction of light between media of different refractive indices. Looking horizontally through the atmosphere of a flat Earth would have no change in refractive index - except when there are thermal inversions, which are not the normal situation.

So what is the scientific explanation? A simple explanation or a link to an explanation is fine.

Look at the horizontal view from the moon to the earth or one of the moon from the earth. The plane where the moon or earth is cut in half is the true horizon. The moon does not rotate. The earth does not orbit the moon. So tell me why are there times on the moon when it looks like the earth is "setting" on the Moon's horizontal plane? Then explain why a non spinning earth cannot be the same phenomenon.

 

[Timtofly]

I didn't interfere with anything. Of course there is moisture in the atmosphere but its level isn't consistent and therefore the evidence will not be consistent if the moisture level in the atmosphere is affecting it.

And yet another rabbit hole, I never said that you said the atmosphere was a glass of water. You compared a glass of water with the atmosphere which is not like with like. You brought it up, it's your rabbit hole not mine!

It is not a rabit hole. It is physics. The Bible states there is water between the vacuum of space and the surface of the earth. If there was not, no biological life would exist.

 

[Phil G]

It is not a rabit hole. It is physics. The Bible states there is water between the vacuum of space and the surface of the earth. If there was not, no biological life would exist.

You see there you go again. Now you're on about water between vacuum of space and the surface of the earth where I was saying the moisture content in the atmosphere when looking horizontally is not consistent which means the evidence of the island as seen from the same location would change. It doesn't regardless of the moisture content in the air as I look across to the island.

Stop trying to change the topic with your rabbit holes!

 

[Phil G]

Look at the horizontal view from the moon to the earth or one of the moon from the earth. The plane where the moon or earth is cut in half is the true horizon. The moon does not rotate. The earth does not orbit the moon. So tell me why are there times on the moon when it looks like the earth is "setting" on the Moon's horizontal plane? Then explain why a non spinning earth cannot be the same phenomenon.

This actually has nothing to do with what was asked (another rabbit hole) but just for the record, the only way the earth can be seen to rise and set as viewed from the moon's surface is at a location where the earth is close to the horizon line when the moon's libration causes the earth to rise and set in the lunar sky.

And the moon does rotate - once every 27+ days.

 

[prodromos]

Look at the horizontal view from the moon to the earth or one of the moon from the earth. The plane where the moon or earth is cut in half is the true horizon. The moon does not rotate. The earth does not orbit the moon. So tell me why are there times on the moon when it looks like the earth is "setting" on the Moon's horizontal plane? Then explain why a non spinning earth cannot be the same phenomenon.

Those photos of the earth "setting" or "rising" on the moon's horizon were taken from the command module which was orbiting the moon, not from the moon's surface.

 

[prodromos]

A drop in a visual horizon is an optical illusion. There is a scientific and logical explanation. When looking at a horizon and the light of the sun going through the atmosphere, is not the same as looking straight up through the atmosphere. Have you ever looked at an object through a glass of water? The atmosphere disrupts any ability to look long distances toward a horizon.

Bending of light through the atmosphere often allows us to see objects that would normally be hidden behind the horizon. It normally does the opposite of what you are claiming because of the change in air density as you increase altitude.

It is a known scientific principle that the observer interferes with what is being observed.

Only in quantum mechanics.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Look at the horizontal view from the moon to the earth or one of the moon from the earth. The plane where the moon or earth is cut in half is the true horizon. The moon does not rotate. The earth does not orbit the moon. So tell me why are there times on the moon when it looks like the earth is "setting" on the Moon's horizontal plane? Then explain why a non spinning earth cannot be the same phenomenon.

I can't make sense of what you're describing, but it certainly doesn't answer the question you were supposedly responding to:

What is the scientific explanation you claim explains that apparent downward curvature of the Earth towards the horizon? A simple explanation or a link to an explanation is fine.

 

[coffee4u]

I'm actually agreeing with you. The Bible does not teach a flat earth and the evidence on the ground is that it is spherical. It is sad that the flat earth believers will answer your points with their fuzzy incoherent reasoning, not you.

Way to confuse me. I only expected flat earthers to be answering my post. But true, they didn't answer me last time, so what's the chances?

 

[Phil G]

Way to confuse me. I only expected flat earthers to be answering my post. But true, they didn't answer me last time, so what's the chances?

Oh I'd say almost nil at this stage! The only verses they can quote are obscure and non-definitive.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

It is a known scientific principle that the observer interferes with what is being observed.

If you're referring to the Observer Effect, that's only relevant when you have to interact with something to observe it. It is not relevant when receiving scattered light from distant objects in the landscape (or seascape).

So there is no moisture in the atmosphere? I did not say the atmosphere was a glass of water.

Atmospheric humidity will typically be fairly constant a couple of meters above the sea surface where the curvature of the Earth is most obvious, so the refractive index will not change significantly to the horizon. Therefore it is irrelevant.

The truth is that there is no scientific explanation for what you claim is an illusion - because it's not an illusion; the curvature of the Earth can be seen at the horizon.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I don't need to see any videos.
Since flat earth is being claimed to be Biblical than all I ask for is one plain verse saying that the earth is flat.

God says that he created in 6 days.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
If us believing the earth was flat was important to God or biblical than he would have also provided us at least one verse stating that it was flat.

And if you can't provide any, then flat earth is not biblical teaching.
It could be some person's teaching, but certainly not God's.
You don't need science you just need the Bible.

Revelation 7:1

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.

Isaiah 11:12

He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; He will collect the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Ezekiel 7:2

"O son of man, this is what the Lord GOD says to the land of Israel: 'The end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land.


I can't seem to find the corners on my globe...

 

[Phil G]

Revelation 7:1

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.

Isaiah 11:12

He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; He will collect the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Ezekiel 7:2

"O son of man, this is what the Lord GOD says to the land of Israel: 'The end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land.


I can't seem to find the corners on my globe...

Flat earth believers who say the Bible confirms a flat earth claim the earth is a flat disc, not anything with corners. I can't find corners on a flat disc earth either!