Replacement theology

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Of course they saw it... they called it "The age to Come" as opposed to what they called "This age" which was the age of Mosaic Judaism.

In scripture,
Mosaic Age = "This Age"
Messianic (Church) Age = "The Age to Come"

That's it.

I was refering to

1 Peter 1:11-12
inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.
It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.​

They foresaw times of light, grace, and comfort, coming upon the church, which made the prophets and righteous men desire to see and hear the things which came to pass in the days of the gospel. But they lived in a time that experience was not available to them like it is to us. Enquiring and searching diligently has the allusion to miners not only breaking thru the earth but into the rock itself to extract the ore. They had the desire and the dilegence and some like Daniel could search books to find the computation of times till that came about, much like we can read about the 1000 years. But study shows that the double meanings of prophesy according to the knowledge of Jesus was for His two separate comings. from 1 peter 1:11 the main point of study was Jesus, the Messiah, that they longed to see as much as the angels did in the next verse, into the (a) sufferings and (b) the glories to follow.
Their effort was rewarded because they were informed those things wouldn't come to pass in their time, but all was certain that should come to pass in the times of the apostles.
Not unto themselves, but to us; and we must report them to all the world. Which things the angels looked intensely into ...

Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,​

 

[parousia70]

Your quotes are from a translation, where the translators thought sacrifices meant atonement for sins. Ezekiel 20:41 tells it best.

Can you supply the "correct" translations for those passages then?

And While we wait for that, Lets presume you are correct for just a minute and this is all confusion brought on by human error in translation....
What did the translators get wrong about the requirement of physical circumcision?
Ezekiel 44:9

And where is the correct translation of Ezek 44:9 that affirms circumcision of the flesh will NOT be required for Entrance to the Sanctuary?

 

[parousia70]

But they lived in a time that experience was not available to them like it is to us.

Could you elaborate on this?

But study shows that the double meanings of prophesy according to the knowledge of Jesus was for His two separate comings.

I've heard of this Double fulfillment theory before...

But Why only Double? why not triple> or quadruple> quintuple?

Nowhere in scripture are any of these events foretold to take place outside of the single messianic generation.

Should we be expecting another virgin Birth then? another Crusifixion?
Was Calvary a mere Shadow of some future greater sacrifice?

Which of the Two comings Of Jesus do you say this one is:

Matthew 21:40-41
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Could you elaborate on this?




I've heard of this Double fulfillment theory before...

But Why only Double? why not triple> or quadruple> quintuple?

Nowhere in scripture are any of these events foretold to take place outside of the single messianic generation.

Should we be expecting another virgin Birth then? another Crusifixion?
Was Calvary a mere Shadow of some future greater sacrifice?

Which of the Two comings Of Jesus do you say this one is:

Matthew 21:40-41
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

I think your making a mountain out of a molehill. Of course they couldn't have experienced it since they didn't live during the church age. Do you not believe in the second coming of Christ?

 

[keras]

Can you supply the "correct" translations for those passages then?
And While we wait for that, Lets presume you are correct for just a minute and this is all confusion brought on by human error in translation....
What did the translators get wrong about the requirement of physical circumcision?
Ezekiel 44:9
And where is the correct translation of Ezek 44:9 that affirms circumcision of the flesh will NOT be required for Entrance to the Sanctuary?

The ancient prophets didn't know about Jesus to come and provide His once and for all sacrifice. They and the translators, assumed that with a new Temple, that we will have, and there will be blood sacrifices and burnt offerings made in it, then they must serve the same purpose as before; atonement for sin.
This isn't right and the offerings of animals and grain are purely for thanksgiving to God.

Circumcision is similar; superseded by the new Covenant. 1 Corinthians 7:19, Galatians 5:2-4
All will be made clear as we live in the new nation of Beulah, with leaders with knowledge and understanding. Jeremiah 3:15, Jeremiah 23:4

 

[mindlight]

I tend to agree. One problem I've always had with Israel remaining front and center in God's plan is that it requires invalidating Our Lord's atoning sacrifice at some point or another. I can't believe that God would go to all the trouble of creating the perfect sacrifice in Our Lord and then rolling it back to the Mosaic code after the "rapture". It just doesn't add up.

What about Messianic Jews though. A messianic Jew is both a Jew and a believer in the Messiah Jesus who has accepted Christs atoning sacrifice. You only need one therefore to claim the authority of Old Testament prophecies given specifically to the Jews in the name of Jesus for that to be a fully authoritative prayer that God must surely respect given his promise to the Jews and the sinlessness of one covered by Christs blood.

 

[mindlight]

The ancient prophets didn't know about Jesus to come and provide His once and for all sacrifice. They and the translators, assumed that with a new Temple, that we will have, and there will be blood sacrifices and burnt offerings made in it, then they must serve the same purpose as before; atonement for sin.
This isn't right and the offerings of animals and grain are purely for thanksgiving to God.

Circumcision is similar; superseded by the new Covenant. 1 Corinthians 7:19, Galatians 5:2-4
All will be made clear as we live in the new nation of Beulah, with leaders with knowledge and understanding. Jeremiah 3:15, Jeremiah 23:4

Is the restoration of the Temple and its sacrifice system necessary as a fulfilment of Christs promises to the Jews? Would not a mass movement to Christ accomplish the same thing as Jews came to accept and claim the blood sacrifice of Christ and also to become members together with Gentiles of the church of God which is being built up into a Temple.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Is the restoration of the Temple and its sacrifice system necessary as a fulfilment of Christs promises to the Jews? Would not a mass movement to Christ accomplish the same thing as Jews came to accept and claim the blood sacrifice of Christ and also to become members together with Gentiles of the church of God which is being built up into a Temple.

That seems to be the common MJ belief and I don't see any merit in it. Especially to the exclusion of all others.

 

[keras]

Is the restoration of the Temple and its sacrifice system necessary as a fulfilment of Christs promises to the Jews? Would not a mass movement to Christ accomplish the same thing as Jews came to accept and claim the blood sacrifice of Christ and also to become members together with Gentiles of the church of God which is being built up into a Temple.

A new Temple is clearly prophesied. The sacred items such as the Ark of the Covenant will be found and kept in it. 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
God required His people to honor Him when they lived in His holy Land. We Christians, Jews and Gentile, will do that again. Jeremiah 33:10-11

 

[parousia70]

Do you not believe in the second coming of Christ?

Of course I do.

Do you believe this passage prophesies it?:

Matthew 21:40-41
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Of course I do.

Do you believe this passage prophesies it?:

Matthew 21:40-41
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

Sure do.

 

[parousia70]

Sure do.

Interesting.
So you don't believe the Kingdom was Taken from the Jews and leased to another Nation yet?

We are still waiting for that?

 

[keras]

So you don't believe the Kingdom was Taken from the Jews and leased to another Nation yet?

Jesus said: The Kingdom will be taken from you [Jews] and given to the people [Christians] who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
The day it was taken from the Jews, was Pentecost, as described in Acts 2:1-47
As we are clearly told by the Apostles, it is now Christian believers who are the Israel of God. I have myself have served on the mission field, helping the church to bear the proper fruit.

 

[parousia70]

Jesus said: The Kingdom will be taken from you [Jews] and given to the people [Christians] who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

Agreed

The day it was taken from the Jews, was Pentecost, as described in Acts 2:1-47

At what point at Pentecost did "the owner of the Vineyard come and destroy those wicked men miserably" as He took the kingdom from them and leased it to the Christians?

As we are clearly told by the Apostles, it is now Christian believers who are the Israel of God. I have myself have served on the mission field, helping the church to bear the proper fruit.

You and I are on the same page on that... but my post was trying to get at why Cassia believes this "kingdom tenancy" hasn't yet changed...

 

[Waterwerx]

To validate "Replacement Theology", there has to be an extreme twisting of the Scriptures. Basically, its what I would refer to as "Bad Theology".

 

[parousia70]

To validate "Replacement Theology", there has to be an extreme twisting of the Scriptures. Basically, its what I would refer to as "Bad Theology".

Who did these people "replace" exactly?
Acts 2:47
And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
[Note that this "church" exists prior to any gentile inclusion, thus is believing Israel]

And when do you say these people STOPPED being Biblical Israel?

Clearly, scripture PLAINLY TEACHES that The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

There has to be an extreme twisting of scripture and VERY bad theology to suggest the opposite.

 

[Waterwerx]

Replacement Theology does not recognize Israel and the Church as being distinctive from each other and basically lumps them together. "Church" and "Israel" are seen as synonymous.

For example, the time of Jacob's trouble, which is the tribulation period, is viewed as referring to both the Church and Israel.

There's plenty of Scriptural evidence that debunks this idea.

Christ did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. His sacrifice made it possible for ALL to avoid permanent separation from God, John 3:16 , which would be the second death, not the physical death. The Jews are still His chosen people and always will be, despite their first rejection of Christ.

 

[parousia70]

The Jews are still His chosen people and always will be, despite their first rejection of Christ.

So the Jews that DID NOT reject Him Ceased Being Israel and became something else?

 

[Hank77]

Replacement Theology does not recognize Israel and the Church as being distinctive from each other and basically lumps them together. "Church" and "Israel" are seen as synonymous.

For example, the time of Jacob's trouble, which is the tribulation period, is viewed as referring to both the Church and Israel.

There's plenty of Scriptural evidence that debunks this idea.

Christ did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. His sacrifice made it possible for ALL to avoid permanent separation from God, John 3:16 , which would be the second death, not the physical death. The Jews are still His chosen people and always will be, despite their first rejection of Christ.

How can Abraham be your father and my father but not be in the Body of Christ?

 

[keras]

Replacement Theology does not recognize Israel and the Church as being distinctive from each other and basically lumps them together. "Church" and "Israel" are seen as synonymous.

That is because they are synonymous, as Paul tells us so clearly: Galatians 3:6-9

The Jews are still His chosen people and always will be, despite their first rejection of Christ.

You say there is plenty of scripture that debunks the idea of Christians being the true Israel of God, but you don't provide any.

In Ephesians 2:11-22, Paul tells us that Christian believers are the true Israelites of God. He pointedly contradicts the dispensational assertion that God has different redemptive purposes for national Israel and for the church. According to Paul, the purpose of the New Covenant is to remove the ethnic distinctions between Jew and Gentile, which had been dividing them. Paul says that Jesus came to tear down the barrier wall which formerly divided the two, in order to make the two peoples into one so as to combine Jew and Gentile together into the one living temple of the Lord: the Christian church. In this spiritual temple, Christ is the chief cornerstone, and the foundation is the prophets and apostles.

Rapture believers will concede that this is God’s purpose for the present age, but they say ethnic Israel’s separate role resurfaces again after the Rapture when the Gentile church is removed from the earth. This dual redemptive purpose then carries on throughout the millennial age after Christ comes back. If true, this means that it is Jesus’ purpose to make the two peoples one is only temporary. John 17:22, Ephesians 4:4-6
They think God intends to divide ethnic Jews from the Gentiles at the rapture.
Of course, this is nonsense. In fact, such a view makes the future millennial age different from Christ’s redemptive purpose under the New Covenant. On these terms, the as yet future millennium marks a return to Old Testament types and shadows and ignores the fact that the reality is Christ. This not only means that redemptive history takes a giant U-turn after Christ comes back, amounting to a reversal back to the types and shadows which preceded the coming of the Messiah and it completely ignores the very thing Christ came to do: make the two peoples one by removing all ethnic divisions which previously divided believers!

All Scripture; especially the Prophetic Word, must be read through a Christ centered hermeneutic, not a dispensational one that believes ethnic Israel on earth and the ‘Church’ taken to heaven.
The truth destroys the ‘rapture to heaven’ theory. There is no separate Israel and Church.

Jesus is the true Israel, and everyone He bought by His blood, people from every tribe, race, nation and language are His Christian followers and are God’s Israelites.
And we Christians; the Lord’s people have the task of being His witnesses and displaying His Light to the nations. Escaping to heaven is simply impossible and believing such fables is a serious error.