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Repeated Abiogenesis?

G

good brother

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Then why is it that we don't find all forms of life in the same geologic strata? Why is it that they are laid out perfectly without compromise to perfectly describe evolution?

Why, without any attempt or intent on sounding as though I may be flaming you, are you willing to compromise what the Bible says but not willing to compromise on what evolution teaches? Just curious, that's all.

In answer to your question, would you expect to see a frog in the Cambrian explosion? Would you see one in the Devonian? No, and why not? One wouldn't see a frog in a total marine environment. A frog would be at the edge between marine and terrestrial. This is also the reason one wouldn't find a bunny rabbit there either, because bunnies don't live under water. One also won't find bunnies in certain parts of the world today although we know very well that they are breeding quite well in other parts of the world.

A better question would be, "Why do we still find life forms of all shapes and sizes in today's world if they all started out as simple and worked their way up?" In other words, why do single celled organisms remain amongst multi-celled or why do invertebrates survive next to vertebrates? Why do endoskeleton creatures reign over the exoskeletons? Why do lower primates exist next to mankind? How did a sloth protect itself from becoming extinct? What brought about the caterpillar's change to a butterfly? Why are dragonflies the exact same as they were a supposed millions of years ago? Why haven't sharks changed at all? Why have some fish never changed? Why is the oak still as popular today as it was all those supposed millions of years ago? It seems as though evolution forgot to evolve some critters.

No, I am sorry friend. There are too many answers that evolution cannot answer satisfactorily for me. God bless you.

In Christ, GB
 
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CabVet

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Why, without any attempt or intent on sounding as though I may be flaming you, are you willing to compromise what the Bible says but not willing to compromise on what evolution teaches? Just curious, that's all.

To answer some of your questions: first, scientists question evolution every single day. We don't compromise against it because there is no evidence against it, it is that simple. The requirement for one to believe in the Bible is faith, the requirement to accept evolution is to understand the evidence supporting it. Two different and unrelated things.

Most of your questions about evolution however, show very little understanding of the natural world and evolution itself. And I totally understand why you (and many others) question evolution. The reason for that is totally clear to me: since you don't understand evolution, it would require "faith" for you to accept it at face value. Now, what many here suggest is that you (and other creationists) try to understand evolution by reading about it, since we cannot explain it in a mere internet thread. But read about it in unbiased scientific sources, not creationist websites (or at the very least, both).

Let me try to address some of your other questions:

In answer to your question, would you expect to see a frog in the Cambrian explosion? Would you see one in the Devonian? No, and why not? One wouldn't see a frog in a total marine environment. A frog would be at the edge between marine and terrestrial. This is also the reason one wouldn't find a bunny rabbit there either, because bunnies don't live under water. One also won't find bunnies in certain parts of the world today although we know very well that they are breeding quite well in other parts of the world.

You make it sound like the Earth was completely covered by water during the Cambrian and Devonian. That is not the case, there was plenty of land during both periods. The reason why there were no frogs or bunnies back then is simply because they did not exist.

The reason why we find some animals in some places today and not in others is partly because of geographic isolation and partly because of habitat requirements. We don't find freshwater fish in the ocean, or humans in the North Pole.

A better question would be, "Why do we still find life forms of all shapes and sizes in today's world if they all started out as simple and worked their way up?" In other words, why do single celled organisms remain amongst multi-celled or why do invertebrates survive next to vertebrates? Why do endoskeleton creatures reign over the exoskeletons? Why do lower primates exist next to mankind? How did a sloth protect itself from becoming extinct? What brought about the caterpillar's change to a butterfly? Why are dragonflies the exact same as they were a supposed millions of years ago? Why haven't sharks changed at all? Why have some fish never changed? Why is the oak still as popular today as it was all those supposed millions of years ago? It seems as though evolution forgot to evolve some critters.

No, I am sorry friend. There are too many answers that evolution cannot answer satisfactorily for me. God bless you.

In Christ, GB

That is a classic misconception about evolution. 99% of the species that once lived on Earth are now extinct. Evolution does not equal progress towards some goal. Evolution equals variation, change and survival. If an organism survives as it is, it will keep existing. If evolution drives it to change, it will change.

Single-celled organisms are some of the most successful forms of life in this planet. They are found in many places where humans cannot survive. They are nourished by the most basic chemical reactions you can imagine. That does not, in any way shape or form, preclude some of them of evolving. Let me give you a practical example. Wolves today look exactly how they did 6,000 years ago, yet look what evolution (through artificial selection) did to dogs. Evolution didn't "forget" to evolve some species. Those "old" species that we see today are simply the most successful ones and survived through a lot of change.

Do endoskeleton creatures reign over the exoskeletons? Really? I would argue that for every human in the planet there are at least 1 billion bacteria, some of which are responsible for the deaths millions of humans (and don't even get me started with viruses). The combined weight of ants is more than that of humans. So, who reigns over who?

I agree with you that there are many unanswered questions in evolution, but none of the ones you pose are in that category. And more importantly, all of our current evidence indicates that the more questions we answer about evolution, the stronger it gets.
 
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Orogeny

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In answer to your question, would you expect to see a frog in the Cambrian explosion? Would you see one in the Devonian? No, and why not? One wouldn't see a frog in a total marine environment. A frog would be at the edge between marine and terrestrial. This is also the reason one wouldn't find a bunny rabbit there either, because bunnies don't live under water.
There were terrestrial and marginal marine environments in both the Cambrian and Devonian. Evolutionary theory explains why no animals inhabited these environments and as far as I know, creation theories do not.

One also won't find bunnies in certain parts of the world today although we know very well that they are breeding quite well in other parts of the world.
I'm not sure how this relates to his question.

A better question would be, "Why do we still find life forms of all shapes and sizes in today's world if they all started out as simple and worked their way up?"
Why wouldn't we? And 'worked their way up' is a non sequitur that implies a purposeful direction for evolution where none exists.

In other words, why do single celled organisms remain amongst multi-celled or why do invertebrates survive next to vertebrates?
Because there were unfilled ecological niches that they were able to occupy. Some of these tiers are best exploited by single-celled organisms, some by invertebrates, some by vertebrates.

Why do endoskeleton creatures reign over the exoskeletons?
Do they? Define 'reign', and defend this definition as appropriately describing the ecological influence of each group.

Why do lower primates exist next to mankind?
Because they evolved to fill different niches. Why are there thousands of different species of spiders? Because they evolved to fill different niches. We can do this all day.

How did a sloth protect itself from becoming extinct?
By best filling the niche available to it and outcompeting other organisms for said niche.

What brought about the caterpillar's change to a butterfly?
They're not two different organisms; caterpillars are simply the larval stage of butterflies.

Why are dragonflies the exact same as they were a supposed millions of years ago?
Are they? Cite evidence, please. And if they are, it is because they are well suited to a niche that has existed in relative stability for millions of years.

Why haven't sharks changed at all? Why have some fish never changed?
See above.

Why is the oak still as popular today as it was all those supposed millions of years ago?
What does this mean? Employing scientific terminology would be helpful

It seems as though evolution forgot to evolve some critters.
That species evolve at different rates and at different times is not evidence that evolution doesn't happen, it is simply evidence that evolution isn't happening to a particular species over a particular time span.

No, I am sorry friend. There are too many answers that evolution cannot answer satisfactorily for me
That's a shame, because it answers most if not all of your above questions, with evidence to boot, which is something that creationism can't say. Have you actually researched the questions you present above, have you actually put the time in to understand evolution theory? Could you present the evidence provided by biologists using evolution theory for one of your questions above, and then explain what is missing from that evidence that would convince you that evolution was correct?

Edit: CabVet grrrr..... ;)
 
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mathclub

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Where did life come from then? I mean in your eyes?

In Christ, GB

I don't know.

I do know that evolution says nothing about where life came from, and you need to learn that they are two separate things.

I can only restate what has already been said. Your view on what evolution is and what it says is totally wrong. You have obviously got most of your information from creationist sources, which are never that accurate. You construct a ridiculous strawman about what you think evolution is and then tear it down.

Go to this link http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html and read through here to find out how wrong you are.

Or ... just ignore all the actual evidence because you are too scared at what you might find, lol.
 
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Tiberius

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How would one know that if abiogenesis happened again, instead of being "devoured" by the modern organisms, that they weren't just a newly discovered- formerly unkown- species? How do you know that your, say dog, is not just a brand new evolved organism that popped into being instead of a line of dog that can trace it's roots clear back to 1 billion BC? And since everyone knows how well a dog's body works for a dog, then it would be an obvious conclusion that this new proto organism mimicked the current representative of the canine family?


In Christ, GB

Because all life that we see around us today shares features in common that would be almost impossible to have come about twice. It's kinda like computers. You can look at your operating system and see that there are certain lines of code that show it is a Windows operating system. We can take any computer and look at the code and we can tell just from that if it is windows based or whatever.

Likewise, it life developed a second time on this planet and it managed to survive, it would have features that would do the same job as the life we know, but because of the sheer complexity of the way life we know does those jobs, this second life would be unlikely to have hit on the same exact way of doing it.

So if we look at a life form and it has feature that are the same as the life we see around us, features that all life has, then we would know that it isn't some new arisal of life.
 
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Tiberius

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^_^ -- Orogeny gets my point; it looks like you don't.

You apparently think I'm talking about that dwarf planet, aren't you?

Ah, so funny! You not talking about dwarf planet, you talking about cartoon dog! And you think you made point when people think you actually have point when you not have point! Oh hahaha! You so FUNNEE Mr AV!!!
 
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RickG

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Why, without any attempt or intent on sounding as though I may be flaming you, are you willing to compromise what the Bible says but not willing to compromise on what evolution teaches? Just curious, that's all.

It is not the bible, it is Genesis specifically which most Christians do not take as being 100% literal. Knowing the stars are much older than the earth is not questioning the bible. The earth is much younger than most stars. Land plants existing before the sun. Seriously you don't take that literally, not to mention other out of order items.

In answer to your question, would you expect to see a frog in the Cambrian explosion? Would you see one in the Devonian? No, and why not? One wouldn't see a frog in a total marine environment. A frog would be at the edge between marine and terrestrial. This is also the reason one wouldn't find a bunny rabbit there either, because bunnies don't live under water. One also won't find bunnies in certain parts of the world today although we know very well that they are breeding quite well in other parts of the world.

Again, you are missing the entire point. I am not talking about specific environments in which a animal or plant existed. I am talking about geologic time. What I am saying is that if evolution were not true, we would find fossils of all animals and plants that ever existed on earth in all layers of geologic strata. The fact is they are not. Instead they are found chronologically is order "without compromise" that perfectly shows evolution.

A better question would be, "Why do we still find life forms of all shapes and sizes in today's world if they all started out as simple and worked their way up?" In other words, why do single celled organisms remain amongst multi-celled or why do invertebrates survive next to vertebrates? Why do endoskeleton creatures reign over the exoskeletons? Why do lower primates exist next to mankind? How did a sloth protect itself from becoming extinct? What brought about the caterpillar's change to a butterfly? Why are dragonflies the exact same as they were a supposed millions of years ago? Why haven't sharks changed at all? Why have some fish never changed? Why is the oak still as popular today as it was all those supposed millions of years ago? It seems as though evolution forgot to evolve some critters.

No, I am sorry friend. There are too many answers that evolution cannot answer satisfactorily for me. God bless you.

In Christ, GB[/quote]
 
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AV1611VET

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What I am saying is that if evolution were not true, we would find fossils of all animals and plants that ever existed on earth in all layers of geologic strata. The fact is they are not. Instead they are found chronologically is order "without compromise" that perfectly shows evolution.
I could be wrong, but I don't agree with this statement.

I surmise that they indeed find "anomalies," but make excuses for them that keep evolution intact.

One of the biggest "anomalies" is how they explain away insitu fossils.

Rabbit in the Precambrian? no problem; we have explanations programmed into our computers, should one ever be found.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Rabbit in the Precambrian? no problem; we have explanations programmed into our computers, should one ever be found.

Ummmm, we really don't. You can bring up that Wikipedia quote again if you'd like, but the fact is that the theory of evolution (not necessarily the fact of evolution) would have to change massively to account for those findings, should they be true.

For instance, finding a rabbit in the precambrian would not invalidate the experiments done that show E. coli and other bacteria can evolve to use different molecules as food (and other experiments where we've demonstrated evolution). So many facts of evolution (that organisms can evolve) would still be in tact. But we'd have to re-think the theory of how, which may ultimately end in trashing it.
 
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AV1611VET

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Goodbrother, go to the UC Berkeley site I linked you to.
I lost a lot of respect for you guys when I posted something from NASA, only to have one of you brilliant Internet scientists (I can't remember who it was, or what it was about), come back and say it was a NASA article written by some kid or something.

Your UC Berkley and other aceldama sites can take a hike.
 
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Split Rock

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Where did the "dog like animal" come from according to evolution? Didn't it come from an animal that came from a "lesser" animal that came from a "lesser" animal
The dog-like animal would have evolved from the ancestor of dogs and bears who evolved from the ancestor of the Carnivora order. The term "primitive" is sometimes used, not "lesser."

that came from a single celled organism that popped into existence one sunny day 4.5 billion years ago? Or was it cloudy that day? Yes, it was cloudy, because there was a lightning strike that gave the energy to the ingredients in the mud puddle so that they could get together in all the right sequencing to produce a creature (albeit a single celled creature) that could design, feed, replicate itself, and mutate when needed to become something bigger and better.
Nothing "popped" into existance, except in your mythology. Despite what your limited knowledge of such subjects covers, molecules do self-assemble under the proper conditions. These events would have followed rules of basic chemistry... not requiring any "popping."

Evolution is a joke when one applies the same "standards" of evolution to another area.
Your ignorance and straw-man mischaracterizations do not qualify you to draw such a conclusion.
 
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AV1611VET

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Yeah, shrug off everything I said. Don't respond to any of it. Classic AV!
I don't need to listen to your No True Scotsman garbage.*

It's an insult to my intelligence.

* aka Internet science
 
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Split Rock

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I could be wrong, but I don't agree with this statement.

I surmise that they indeed find "anomalies," but make excuses for them that keep evolution intact.

One of the biggest "anomalies" is how they explain away insitu fossils.

Rabbit in the Precambrian? no problem; we have explanations programmed into our computers, should one ever be found.

You used the term anomalies in quotes. If a single fossil is found out of order, which does happen on rare occassions, it is indeed considered an anomaly Anomalies do occur in all kinds of systems. The question is then is there an explanation for the anomaly? If there is, then it is no problem for the theory. For example, unconformaties can change the sequence of fossils in the column, but they leave tell tale signs. What RickG was saying, is that we should find out of order fossils all the time; that could not be an anomaly. It would require a serious revamping of the theory and even the dropping of universal common descent.
 
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CabVet

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I lost a lot of respect for you guys when I posted something from NASA, only to have one of you brilliant Internet scientists (I can't remember who it was, or what it was about), come back and say it was a NASA article written by some kid or something.

Your UC Berkley and other aceldama sites can take a hike.

That was me, and I never said the article was written by kids, I said it was written for kids and was wrong. Do you want me to find more mistakes in the NASA website for you? How about the UC Berkeley website? I bet I can find mistakes there. Humans are not perfect.

Now, a famous creationist website (Answers in Genesis) has a list that they call "Arguments creationists should avoid". At one point or another, I saw you and many other creationists here using many of those arguments, refuted by creationists no less.
 
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Split Rock

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Why, without any attempt or intent on sounding as though I may be flaming you, are you willing to compromise what the Bible says but not willing to compromise on what evolution teaches? Just curious, that's all.
The bible doesn't teach. That's why there is theology. The bible must be interpreted. Therefore, the problem isn't necessarily with the bible, but with your theology. So, your question should be: "are you willing to compromise what my theology says but not willing to compromise on what evolution teaches?"

In answer to your question, would you expect to see a frog in the Cambrian explosion? Would you see one in the Devonian? No, and why not? One wouldn't see a frog in a total marine environment. A frog would be at the edge between marine and terrestrial. This is also the reason one wouldn't find a bunny rabbit there either, because bunnies don't live under water. One also won't find bunnies in certain parts of the world today although we know very well that they are breeding quite well in other parts of the world.
We would then expect to see fishes, crabs, lobsters, shrimp, whales, etc in the Cambrian strata, would we not? The problem is we find NO modern species at all in the Cambrian strata... not that we don't find deer or mice that don't belong in a marine environment. You wouldn't even recognize most of the species identified. Paleontologists are not as stupid as you wish them to be.

A better question would be, "Why do we still find life forms of all shapes and sizes in today's world if they all started out as simple and worked their way up?" In other words, why do single celled organisms remain amongst multi-celled or why do invertebrates survive next to vertebrates? Why do endoskeleton creatures reign over the exoskeletons? Why do lower primates exist next to mankind? How did a sloth protect itself from becoming extinct? What brought about the caterpillar's change to a butterfly? Why are dragonflies the exact same as they were a supposed millions of years ago? Why haven't sharks changed at all? Why have some fish never changed? Why is the oak still as popular today as it was all those supposed millions of years ago? It seems as though evolution forgot to evolve some critters.
No, it is because evolution is not a ladder to perfection. These types are still around because they are well adapted to current ecological niches that they occupy. If the ecological niche does not change much, then neither will the species occupying it. It is called "stabilizing selection." Why are bacteria still around? because they do quite well in their roles than you very much. That doesn't mean they haven't evolved, however, because they have. There are good reasons to be unicellular today, just as in the past, however... and that probably will not change in the future.
 
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