Reopen America or Save American Lives?

[Tropical Wilds]

Right, blame me, a perfectly healthy person, that uses ppe including gloves while outside of the house instead of the at risk individual that should remain indoors.

You may be healthy, but you can be a carrier who infects others. You may be healthy, but you may still need medical help when and if you get it. You may be wearing PPE, but unless you change your gloves after everything you touch, every person you’re encountering, and disposing of them properly, you’re wasting your time as you’re using PPE incorrectly, are no safer than the people without gloves, and you are now a detriment of you and those around you, not to mention wasting PPE that is of vital need to hospitals on frivolities that suit your own comfort while defying orders to self isolate.

One box of 100 pairs of gloves provides 75-100 patient individual patient interactions. That is almost everybody served on a single day in my infusion unit. Cancer patients, arthritis patients, people with immune disorders not being served because you bought and are holding on to equipment so that you can defy the orders of every major medical organization and world leader in the world.

Is you popping on your gloves to go putter around WalMart really more important than the basic functions of a chemo unit? Would you feel the same way if it was your spouse, your child, your grandchild was taken off chemo and now somebody you love is facing down death or disability? When you go to roll into your hospital with Corona and they tell you to tough it out at home because they have no equipment, will you be indignant that now you can’t get basic care? Or will you be Ok with being sent home to infect your family, maybe recover fully, maybe not, because this was a problem exacerbated by your own choices?

It isn't their decisions to leave quarantine that exposed them to the virus. It's me. It is all my fault. Guess what? I'm not going to be walking into your home. You are safe there.

Yes, you will be walking into people’s homes. That gas pump you used with your contaminated hands could have been used by the Schwan’s driver I’m relying on for food. The “it’s just allergies” cough you found out 10 days later wasn’t allergies that festers in the air could be breathed in by my husband at work and come home that way. The door you grabbed with your filthy gloves could be how my medical courier gets it and transmits it onto the package of my meds.

Everything you touch, everything you breathe on, every person you talk to could come into my house. Every day you walk around is another day I stay home, another day I can’t work, another day further from when I last got chemo, and another day longer I deal with no treatment for something that I could get treatment for quite easily before people with your mentality decided they are immune to basic medical knowledge.

My chemo? Done. There are no supplies because they’re going to Corona demand because people won’t protect themselves and others. That impacts me forever, even though I’m not on any state’s Corona statistic.

Unless you plan on paying for my Colostomy bags, my surgery bills, or supporting my family should I die, it is your social, ethical, and moral responsibility to deal with the “inconvenience” of staying in your own home and not being part of the problem.

Do not go for a walk. Do not leave the house. Do not contact people, and you will be at lesser risk. I am not at fault if you decide to leave your home, and do not practice correct disciplines.

Lesser, not “zero.”

And yes, the defying of medical best practice and contributing to spread is your fault. Others who feel like you until they get sick and drain medical supplies are at fault.

And since you clearly didn’t read my post, as a cancer and invisible illness survivor who can no longer get chemo due to shortages of gloves and medical supplies, I did everything right and Corona is still screwing up my life and health. It is ignorant and selfish to say otherwise.

 

[loveofourlord]

You keep projecting and interjecting then claim you understand my position.... You are attacking me, because I do not agree with you, and I am not ashamed to say so.

You are wrong. I do not feel that way just because your feelings got hurt, and want to say so.

There is no need to shut down this nation, and cause it to slide into destitution, just because some people want a sense of security.

oh for petes sakes, you do it so people don't DIE, I know you don't care about people dying but the rest of the world does.

 

[LostMarbels]

You may be healthy, but you can be a carrier who infects others. You may be healthy, but you may still need medical help when and if you get it. You may be wearing PPE, but unless you change your gloves after everything you touch, every person you’re encountering, and disposing of them properly, you’re wasting your time as you’re using PPE incorrectly, are no safer than the people without gloves, and you are now a detriment of you and those around you, not to mention wasting PPE that is of vital need to hospitals on frivolities that suit your own comfort while defying orders to self isolate.

One box of 100 pairs of gloves provides 75-100 patient individual patient interactions. That is almost everybody served on a single day in my infusion unit. Cancer patients, arthritis patients, people with immune disorders not being served because you bought and are holding on to equipment so that you can defy the orders of every major medical organization and world leader in the world.

Is you popping on your gloves to go putter around WalMart really more important than the basic functions of a chemo unit? Would you feel the same way if it was your spouse, your child, your grandchild was taken off chemo and now somebody you love is facing down death or disability? When you go to roll into your hospital with Corona and they tell you to tough it out at home because they have no equipment, will you be indignant that now you can’t get basic care? Or will you be Ok with being sent home to infect your family, maybe recover fully, maybe not, because this was a problem exacerbated by your own choices?



Yes, you will be walking into people’s homes. That gas pump you used with your contaminated hands could have been used by the Schwan’s driver I’m relying on for food. The “it’s just allergies” cough you found out 10 days later wasn’t allergies that festers in the air could be breathed in by my husband at work and come home that way. The door you grabbed with your filthy gloves could be how my medical courier gets it and transmits it onto the package of my meds.

Everything you touch, everything you breathe on, every person you talk to could come into my house. Every day you walk around is another day I stay home, another day I can’t work, another day further from when I last got chemo, and another day longer I deal with no treatment for something that I could get treatment for quite easily before people with your mentality decided they are immune to basic medical knowledge.

My chemo? Done. There are no supplies because they’re going to Corona demand because people won’t protect themselves and others. That impacts me forever, even though I’m not on any state’s Corona statistic.

Unless you plan on paying for my Colostomy bags, my surgery bills, or supporting my family should I die, it is your social, ethical, and moral responsibility to deal with the “inconvenience” of staying in your own home and not being part of the problem.



Lesser, not “zero.”

And yes, the defying of medical best practice and contributing to spread is your fault. Others who feel like you until they get sick and drain medical supplies are at fault.

Stop assuming stuff. You have never met me in your entire life, and act like you know my every move. You don't get to label me just to suit your narrative.

And since you clearly didn’t read my post, as a cancer and invisible illness survivor who can no longer get chemo due to shortages of gloves and medical supplies, I did everything right and Corona is still screwing up my life and health. It is ignorant and selfish to say otherwise.

I did read your post. It has nothing to do with me. What am I supposed to do? Now I am supposed to be ashamed for buying PPE for my family? I'm not. I keep plenty of stuff on hand because we prepare for hurricanes. I buy food, medical supplies, batteries, water filtration, PPE, ammunition... etc every 6 months in bulk. (Oh, and toilet paper. ) Because I sell fireworks for a living. I get paid every 6 months new years, and fourth of July. That also means I am going to be sleeping in a tent on the side of the road for 3 weeks. Need supplies.

It is completely ignorant to think I should somehow be ashamed for preparing my family for our life's situations, just because you have cancer during this current virus. I have gloves and PPE stored up from years ago. I didn't take anything from you. I also have years of food, water filtration, hunting/fishing gear etc upon etc. Gonna try and play me off as some horrible person for providing for my family's security during a hurricane, (nat disaster like this) and living off grid in a fireworks tent. What... ever....

 

[loveofourlord]

Stop assuming stuff. You have never met me in your entire life, and act like you know my every move. You don't get to label me just to suit your narrative.



I did read your post. It has nothing to do with me. What am I supposed to do? Now I am supposed to be ashamed for buying PPE for my family? I'm not. I keep plenty of stuff on hand because we prepare for hurricanes. I buy food, medical supplies, batteries, water filtration, PPE, ammunition... etc every 6 months in bulk. Oh, and toilet paper. Because I sell fireworks for a living. I get paid every 6 months new years, and fourth of July. That also means I am going to be sleeping in a tent on the side of the road for 3 weeks. Need supplies.

It is completely ignorant to think I should somehow be ashamed for preparing my family for our life's situations, just because you have cancer during this current virus. I have gloves and PPE stored up from years ago. I didn't take anything from you. I also have years of food, water filtration, hunting/fishing gear etc upon etc. Gonna try and play me off as some horrible person for providing for my family's security during a hurricane, (nat disaster like this) and living off grid in a fireworks tent. What... ever....

No but you have been talking abiout how it's more important to keep the economy from crashing then keeping people from dying AND the economy crashing the some how money and jobs are more important then people.

 

[LostMarbels]

Is you popping on your gloves to go putter around WalMart really more important than the basic functions of a chemo unit?

For me and my family it is. I need to provide for my family as well. Do you know how long it took my entire family to find formula for my grandson? My daughter cannot breastfeed. And quite frankly that was one thing I never prepared for.

I do not get this guilt trip that my entire life needs to cease because other people have needs also.

 

[LostMarbels]

No but you have been talking abiout how it's more important to keep the economy from crashing then keeping people from dying AND the economy crashing the some how money and jobs are more important than people.

Closing down the entire infrastructure of america does nothing except close down the infrastructure.

There is no immunity to this virus in all of humanity. It will continue to spread. Even if it is next season or 3 seasons from now we all get it. Even out of season. Orrrr..... we get a vaccine.

But you do not stop the spread by shutting down the economy. You slow it down by being responsible, and following proper precautions.

 

[expos4ever]

There is no need to shut down this nation, and cause it to slide into destitution, just because some people want a sense of security.

Do you not see the irony in your "Lost Marbels" name?

 

[LostMarbels]

Do you not see the irony in your "Lost Marbels" name?

Might have been intentional there buddy. Kinda like the misspelling.

 

[childeye 2]

So this is not a dichotomy of either or, but both.

I think what you mean to say is that there are degrees between two absolutes within a dichotomy. It certainly is a dichotomy Isolate/stop isolating. Just saying.

 

[loveofourlord]

I think what you mean to say is that there are degrees between two absolutes within a dichotomy. It certainly is a dichotomy Isolate/stop isolating. Just saying.

well I think what they mean, is the one I've been talking about, it's not a dichotomy of, either we allow the economy to colapse or we isolate everyone, the economy will colapse either way and people will die but like you said where will it be.

 

[childeye 2]

well I think what they mean, is the one I've been talking about, it's not a dichotomy of, either we allow the economy to colapse or we isolate everyone, the economy will colapse either way and people will die but like you said where will it be.

We reason on fundamental binary dichotomies of pro/con, good/bad, success/failure etc... You're describing a left/right dichotomy which is meant to denote an abstract center or proper balance. In a left/right dichotomy there are two subjective views each with their own bad/good which reverse in connotation and denotation according to the perspective of either side of an issue. We need to strike the best balance to achieve the best outcome. This sometimes means moving left and sometimes means moving right.

 

[Salvadore]

The dichotomy appears to be a stack of dead bodies on one side and a stack of dead bodies on the other. It may be that we have to choose whichever side has the lowest number of dead bodies.

How many in the US died from poverty and starvation during the great depression.

 

[loveofourlord]

How many in the US died from poverty and starvation during the great depression.

again with the false dichotomy, it's not deaths on one side, economic crash on other, whats the harm to the economy of many older people, particularly CEO's and such dying, and health care colapsing because hospitals can't support all the sick people, and people not showing up for work due to being sick, or deciding their health is more important then a job, or people going to work so they can pay their rent and making more people sick.

 

[thecolorsblend]

How many in the US died from poverty and starvation during the great depression.

again with the false dichotomy, it's not deaths on one side, economic crash on other, whats the harm to the economy of many older people, particularly CEO's and such dying, and health care colapsing because hospitals can't support all the sick people, and people not showing up for work due to being sick, or deciding their health is more important then a job, or people going to work so they can pay their rent and making more people sick.

What I was thinking more about was suicide, drug overdoses, crime, etc, if things get too lousy with the economy.

I must say, I'm a bit surprised at the resistance coming from the left about sending people back to work as much as can be done safely. Because right now, virtually all of President Trump's 2016 agenda is in the process of being powerfully vindicated. Thus, sending people back to work might at least shift the public discourse in a direction which is more comfortable for the left. Because right now, I'm getting texts from dyed in the wool Democrat friends expressing ideas and attitudes that should make "Professor" Biden's campaign very nervous.

 

[JacksBratt]

During this time of Virus action I have a whole lot of mixed feelings and ideas on the whole thing.


First, a normal flu kills up to 70,000 people a year in the US alone.

Then, many people have the virus and have little or no symptoms. Thus, they are spreading it by being totally innocent.

Third, it lasts on surfaces for very long times. We are going to grocery stores and getting gas for your vehicles where we are obviously going to be at risk of contacting the virus.

Fourth, we took way to long to shut down travel. I mean really, by the time they took that step.. there were people all over the world that were in China.

Fifth, the world is so small and people travel so far so fast that interaction with humans if tracked moves rapid to millions of people.

So, understanding this.... have they even stopped the spread? I doubt it.

Is it smart to wash your hands, don't touch your face and maintain 6 feet distance... of course.. AND, that's probably all you can do because, lets face it.. it's everywhere now.

So, what would happen if they just said "Forget it.. everyone just go back to life as normal... making sure that you wash your hands, don't touch your face and maintain distance where possible?

What would happen? Would it be any worse? The weakest link is what defines the strength of a chain.

Let's face it.. this chain has weak links everywhere.

 

[JacksBratt]

In Canada, our numbers are much lower than the US.. but.. here's the thing.. I personally know 4 people that have the symptoms and were told not to bother getting tested.. go home and self isolate and treat the symptoms for 14 days..

That's just little old me in the countryside of Ontario.... How many others have the symptoms.. are not tested and as a result.... NEVER show up as a statistical case.. positive for the virus?

I don't think that the numbers really mean anything here.. They certainly aren't valid.. Certainly don't represent a true count...

BUT... company's don't have to pay for you to be off.. UNLESS you have a positive test or someone you have in contact has a positive test...

Pretty slick... just don't test them.. they are sick... but nobody is compensated as they were supposed to...

SO.. guess what.. they cannot afford to stay home.. they are not confirmed.. so.. they go to work, the groceries, the gas station, the variety store and other places....

It's not working.

 

[RDKirk]

During this time of Virus action I have a whole lot of mixed feelings and ideas on the whole thing.


First, a normal flu kills up to 70,000 people a year in the US alone.

Then, many people have the virus and have little or no symptoms. Thus, they are spreading it by being totally innocent.

Third, it lasts on surfaces for very long times. We are going to grocery stores and getting gas for your vehicles where we are obviously going to be at risk of contacting the virus.

Fourth, we took way to long to shut down travel. I mean really, by the time they took that step.. there were people all over the world that were in China.

Fifth, the world is so small and people travel so far so fast that interaction with humans if tracked moves rapid to millions of people.

So, understanding this.... have they even stopped the spread? I doubt it.

Is it smart to wash your hands, don't touch your face and maintain 6 feet distance... of course.. AND, that's probably all you can do because, lets face it.. it's everywhere now.

So, what would happen if they just said "Forget it.. everyone just go back to life as normal... making sure that you wash your hands, don't touch your face and maintain distance where possible?

What would happen? Would it be any worse? The weakest link is what defines the strength of a chain.

Let's face it.. this chain has weak links everywhere.

If you look at their comparison of the tall bell curve of a "normal" infection pattern and the flattened bell curve that is the goal, the areas of the bell curves are similar. The unspoken point is that with a vaccine yet 18-24 months away, they expect virtually everyone to get it.

Their hope is to keep the bell curve flat enough that the healthcare system is not overwhelmed.

That is what would happen, and it would be worse because an overwhelmed healthcare system would lead to more deaths.

So to that end, I've said before that I think the hyping of testing is not the most effective way to deal with the problem. It's not a silver bullet, unless we're able to test everyone...repeatedly, on demand, until a vaccine becomes available.

They won't test unless you show symptoms and you have some other indicator (such as contact with a known carrier). Then it takes days to get results. If you really are sick, you'll already know before you get the results.

But if you're not positive, that only means you weren't a carrier on the day they took the swab...you may be a carrier by the time you get the results. Or any time afterward. So testing must be comprehensive over the entire population, it has to provide quick results, and it has to be repetitive.

Testing is not the silver bullet. But in the meantime, where are there more ventilators? Where are their more gloves? Where are there more alcohol wipes? Don't believe the horse manure about masks not protecting the healthy--the medical community is just saying that so that they can have more masks for themselves. That's totally understandable, their concern is genuine, but the real question is then, where are there more masks?

How in the devil can a country like the US be unable to quickly switch its manufacturing capacity to things as simple as paper masks? Even ventilators are not that difficult to build--a usable ventilator can be built in a decent garage workshop. I may make one myself--there are DIY instructions on the Web.

In WWII, American clock makers switched to making bombsights.

Have we since become so useless as a productive society that nobody can switch to making paper masks?

 

[JacksBratt]

If you look at their comparison of the tall bell curve of a "normal" infection pattern and the flattened bell curve that is the goal, the areas of the bell curves are similar. The unspoken point is that with a vaccine yet 18-24 months away, they expect virtually everyone to get it.

Their hope is to keep the bell curve flat enough that the healthcare system is not overwhelmed.

That is what would happen, and it would be worse because an overwhelmed healthcare system would lead to more deaths.

So to that end, I've said before that I think the hyping of testing is not the most effective way to deal with the problem. It's not a silver bullet, unless we're able to test everyone...repeatedly, on demand, until a vaccine becomes available.

They won't test unless you show symptoms and you have some other indicator (such as contact with a known carrier). Then it takes days to get results. If you really are sick, you'll already know before you get the results.

But if you're not positive, that only means you weren't a carrier on the day they took the swab...you may be a carrier by the time you get the results. Or any time afterward. So testing must be comprehensive over the entire population, it has to provide quick results, and it has to be repetitive.

Testing is not the silver bullet. But in the meantime, where are there more ventilators? Where are their more gloves? Where are there more alcohol wipes? Don't believe the horse manure about masks not protecting the healthy--the medical community is just saying that so that they can have more masks for themselves. That's totally understandable, their concern is genuine, but the real question is then, where are there more masks?

How in the devil can a country like the US be unable to quickly switch its manufacturing capacity to things as simple as paper masks? Even ventilators are not that difficult to build--a usable ventilator can be built in a decent garage workshop. I may make one myself--there are DIY instructions on the Web.

In WWII, American clock makers switched to making bombsights.

Have we since become so useless as a productive society that nobody can switch to making paper masks?

All good information. However, the masks are only good for those that are already sick.


That's just it... There are so many who are sick and show no signs.. are carriers and don't know it... Are spreading it without knowledge.

And... it is out there.. everywhere. In the 18-24 months it takes to get the vaccine out there.. it won't be needed.. everyone will have been in contact and have natural immunity as we do to the strains of cold virus's we have had.

 

[LostMarbels]

But in the meantime, where are there more ventilators? Where are their more gloves? Where are there more alcohol wipes?

China. China. and China. Part of the ongoing trade war is the complete and total dependence on foreign nations for goods we need for our own survival. Our factories have long ago been shut down, and we find ourselves helplessly dependant on other countries for supplies.

Don't believe the horse manure about masks not protecting the healthy--the medical community is just saying that so that they can have more masks for themselves. That's totally understandable, their concern is genuine, but the real question is then, where are there more masks?

We have a severely limited capability of producing our own products. We have become a consumer nation.

How in the devil can a country like the US be unable to quickly switch its manufacturing capacity to things as simple as paper masks?

Trade agreements, treasties, and proclamations that limit what can, or cannot be produced by a nation, and what will be traded between nations at what rate.

A carbon footprint is a good example. It can be deemed that USA is spending too much of its carbon budget by producing certain goods, and be disallowed to make them.

 

[LostMarbels]

For all the haters wanting to make me seem like a monster for preparing my family, and not trusting 'fellow society'. These are the types of people you need to protect yourselves from. Not someone who uses PPE and follows CDC precautions.

Then you got this guy, who walks down entire isles licking everything in one continuous drag of his tongue. It seems deodorant was his preferred flavor in this video.

Why oh why would I ever need to 'waste' PPE to go shopping, or use a bleach wipe on the containers of products when I get home from shopping... So wasteful...

There are people that would give you covid-19 because they think it is funny. Stop worrying about how you are going to stop responsible people from going about their business, and figure out how you are going to defend yourself and your family from idiots.