Religious shunning

[bbbbbbb]

While China is officially atheistic, in practice it isn't, at least if that means no religion. Lots of European societies also have elites that believe religion will one day disappear, too. A country like Germany doesn't recognize many religions as actually being religions (like Scientology), but considers them scams or cults. It's hardly different except a question of criteria, perhaps.

The Communist Party of China is, indeed, officially atheistic. The People's Republic of China (please note the distinction) tolerates superstitions of all sorts ranging from religion to gambling. Gambling is a much bigger thing in China than religion. Like any good bureaucracy, the government of the People's Republic of China regulates both gambling and religion and does not necessarily perceive much difference between them. Chairman Mao expected the Department of Religious Affairs to be eliminated within his lifetime simply because these superstitions would not be transmitted to the next generation of Chinese people. From the government's perspective, religion remains a rather intractable problem which requires strong action to prohibit its spread, as if it were an endemic disease. Thus, the government has been increasing its activity to reduce the presence of religion within Chinese society.

 

[Fervent]

I don't interpret Jesus as God in a human skin suit, no. I don't even think of divinity in those terms. I don't pretend to understand the mystery of the Incarnation, but I don't believe that Jesus literally handed Moses the Ten Commandments.

Keep in mind I am a mainline Protestant and I attend a relatively liberal church, the UCC, that has a wide latitude in beliefs.



I don't recall that. At the very least, I don't remember him approving that specific punishment. If anything, he always sought ways to abrogate Mosaic law if it meant having to kill people.



Sinful people aren't very good at applying social sanctions. Perhaps we should let God judge some things, and work out our own salvation.

1)That seems to run aground when we consider Biblical statements involving Jesus' divinity, for example Jude 1:5 where in the best translations it is written that Jesus saved people from Egypt. Do you not believe that the Old Testament is exactly as Jesus intends it to be, or that the laws given to Moses were not truly of divine origin?

Jesus explicitely quotes the law about putting children who curse their parents to death in Matthew 15:4. Jesus didn't abrogate any of the written law, and the most auspicious passages for the view that he did such as John 8 aren't actually an abrogation of the law but require contextual understanding.

Should we just apply the social sanction thing to religious sanctions, or embrace all out anarchy?

 

[FireDragon76]

1)That seems to run aground when we consider Biblical statements involving Jesus' divinity, for example Jude 1:5 where in the best translations it is written that Jesus saved people from Egypt. Do you not believe that the Old Testament is exactly as Jesus intends it to be, or that the laws given to Moses were not truly of divine origin?

I interpret those statements largely poetically, as a kind of Christ-mysticism. I don't believe Jesus is literally begotten of God in a univocal sense, as in the same sense we would speak of a mother begetting a child.

Jesus explicitely quotes the law about putting children who curse their parents to death in Matthew 15:4. Jesus didn't abrogate any of the written law, and the most auspicious passages for the view that he did such as John 8 aren't actually an abrogation of the law but require contextual understanding.

It's difficult to interpret from that, given the context, that he would approve of the death penalty for any specific violation of that commandment. He's arguing with the scribes, and merely quoting their law.

Should we just apply the social sanction thing to religious sanctions, or embrace all out anarchy?

That's a false dichotomy.

 

[Fervent]

I interpret those statements largely poetically, as a kind of Christ-mysticism. I don't believe Jesus is literally begotten of God in a univocal sense, as in the same sense we would speak of a mother begetting a child.



It's difficult to interpret from that, given the context, that he would approve of the death penalty for any specific violation of that commandment. He's arguing with the scribes, and merely quoting their law.



That's a false dichotomy.

It's not a matter of Christ being begotten, but actually being the Word made flesh. One and the same God in both old and new testament, the giver and fulfiller of the law.

So you think he was just making a rhetorical point, and not quoting the law because it is authoritative?

How is it a false dichotomy? Are those same sinful humans not making social sanctions in general? Whether those social sanctions be boycotts, shunning, or legal penalties? If sinful humans are incapable of making such sanctions, how can they be expected to oversee any form of governance? Doesn't even discriminating between what may be left to God and what can be sanctioned involve the very same suspect faculties?

 

[FireDragon76]

It's not a matter of Christ being begotten, but actually being the Word made flesh. One and the same God in both old and new testament, the giver and fulfiller of the law.

So you think he was just making a rhetorical point, and not quoting the law because it is authoritative?

How is it a false dichotomy? Are those same sinful humans not making social sanctions in general? Whether those social sanctions be boycotts, shunning, or legal penalties? If sinful humans are incapable of making such sanctions, how can they be expected to oversee any form of governance? Doesn't even discriminating between what may be left to God and what can be sanctioned involve the very same suspect faculties?

I don't know what you are driving at. It contradicts everything I was raised with about what Jesus Christ means. The best tools we have, espistemologically, in terms of the Scriptures, tradition, and human reason and experience contradict the notion that religiously sanctioned killing and cruelty are godly.

 

[mourningdove~]

Religion can produce some odd behaviours, one of which is shunning.

Seventeen years ago, in early September some time after I became a Catholic, having been a Presbyterian previously, my 'best friends' - a couple from a local Pentecostal church (Assembly of God) - started to shun me. It started over a dinner to which they had invited me. After the meal and during normal conversation the husband started a monologue about why he could no longer have contact with me. HIs wife wept during his monologue. I sat and listened, then left after a polite good bye. I wrote a letter a few days later expressing my thoughts on his decision, which were polite and mild without condemnation. I never heard from them again. The husband died in 2022, October, and no one told me he was ill and that he died, I found out in funeral notices.

At one time I thought that it was only a few unusual groups, such as Jehovah's witnesses, some Mennonites, and some other small sects that practised shunning of this kind. But I was mistaken. Some, at least, among Pentecostals do too, though I think that it would be a minority who do. But I can testify that shunning is hurtful. It seems that it was emotionally upsetting for his wife, it was upsetting for me, but I cannot say what the emotions of the husband were. He died from Alzheimer's disease, a very tragic way to die but one that is increasingly common now that people typically live into their 80s and 90s. He died at age 80.

A sad aftermath is that after I left a funeral message on the web site recording his funeral details and including a funeral video, his wife wrote a short note saying "out of love and loyalty to [name of husband here], I wish for things to remain as they are" meaning that she would continue the shunning. I wrote back saying that I understood her decision.

My thoughts on the matter are these:

• shunning for religious reasons, such as a change of religious affiliation, is a kind of religious bigotry.
• shunning is also a kind of emotional cruelty.
• shunning leaves scares on the shunner and the shunned.

What is one to think about religious faith that incorporates shunning.

I was in the AOG for years. Am very familiar with it.
I never heard or read anything in the AOG promoting or suggesting the "shunning" of converts to Catholicism.
If the idea was there, I never encountered it ...

I think many persons do this kind of "shunning" behavior by personal decision, not by church mandate.

Many persons see great differences between Protestantism and Catholicism ...
and I guess there are a some big differences ...

Sorry you experienced the shunning.
I've lost friends over denomination changes, also.
Is not a pleasant thing ...

 

[Fervent]

I don't know what you are driving at, but I will never kill in the name of God or Jesus Christ, and I will never fellowship with anybody who does, or advocates for the same. My conscience is bound by this. It contradicts everything I was raised with about what Jesus Christ means. The best tools we have, espistemologically, in terms of the Scriptures, tradition, and human reason contradict the notion that religiously sanctioned killing and cruelty are godly.

So you would shun someone whose religious convictions lead them to take the law of Moses as authoritative regarding the death penalty for apostates?

 

[FireDragon76]

So you would shun someone whose religious convictions lead them to take the law of Moses as authoritative regarding the death penalty for apostates?

No. I just won't participate in their religion.

Again, what is your point? Are you seriously advocating for death for people that don't agree with your religion? This is a sad world where the "fans" of the Prince of Peace advocate for bloodshed in his name. With friends like this, Jesus doesn't need enemies.

 

[Fervent]

No. I just won't participate in their religion.

Again, what is your point? Are you seriously advocating for death for people that don't agree with your religion? This is a sad world where the "fans" of the Prince of Peace advocate for bloodshed in his name. With friends like this, Jesus doesn't need enemies.

No, I'm not advocating for death for people who disagree with my religion. I'm simply pointing out that it's not as simple as an absolute yes or no in either the case of the death penalty or shunning. Let's not forget Jesus is the one who said "these enemies of mine who would not have me rule over them, come slay them before me."

 

[FireDragon76]

No, I'm not advocating for death for people who disagree with my religion. I'm simply pointing out that it's not as simple as an absolute yes or no in either the case of the death penalty or shunning.

Yes, it is pretty simple.

Look, my religion is based on kindness and life, not cruelty and death. This is the theme I see throughout the Old and New Testaments, if we choose kindness and life, life will be better for us and we will be truly godly. You can focus on bronze age peculiarities of a people and their religion, I choose to focus on what is truly timeless.

Let's not forget Jesus is the one who said "these enemies of mine who would not have me rule over them, come slay them before me."

He was speaking in terms of a parable and relating a spiritual message through a story that his contemporaries could relate to. Taking this parable literally is the wrong approach.

 

[RileyG]

There is no firmly-established theological system in Japan. Shintoism, which is a default religion which deified the emperor, took a major hit when Japan lost face in World War II and surrendered to the United States, thereby admitting that the emperor was not actually divine. Curiously, the educational system in Japan has worked overtime to teach their version of the War which defines Japan as the helpless victim of American aggression which had orchestrated the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Buddhism is not a native religion in Japan but originated in India and found its way to Japan via China. The Japanese developed Buddhism in their own particular way, commonly known as Zen.

Neither Shintoism or Buddhism makes exclusive claims to truth, such that many people can visit both sorts of temples and engage in rituals in them without any reservations. This is also true of Daoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism in China. In Japan, as in China, there is a very strong adulation of all things American, including Christianity. It is now extremely popular in Japan to have one's wedding on one day at a Shinto temple and on another day at a Christian chapel attached to a luxury hotel. The chapels are excellent renditions of Modern American Protestant churches. The Christian services performed are not by an actual Christian pastor, but a paid employee of the hotel who goes through the typical wedding ritual one will find in most American church weddings. If one was not aware of this situation, one would conclude that all involved are believing Christians.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of any of that.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The idea of cutting off longstanding relationships because of religious creeds is the stuff of cults, even in a group-oriented society like Japan.

The gentleman and his wife had been friends since 1978, the shunning started in 2006, 28 years of friendship were abandoned as if they never existed. It was harsh and deliberate and extended. I cannot help but think it arose from a very troubled and troubling religious bigotry. Prior to the events that led to my reception into the Catholic Church, the husband had made odd comments abut a Catholic Church building that we passed frequently; he observed how he wished he could climb the bell tower and throw down the statues that were erected in it some years prior by an Italian priest. That was a sign of his dislike for aspects of Catholic worship and devotional practises. It wasn't sufficient for me to realise how deep his dislikes towards Catholicism and Catholics were. That only became clear when he started shunning me BECAUSE I had become a Catholic.

 

[FireDragon76]

The gentleman and his wife had been friends since 1978, the shunning started in 2006, 28 years of friendship were abandoned as if they never existed. It was harsh and deliberate and extended. I cannot help but think it arose from a very troubled and troubling religious bigotry. Prior to the events that led to my reception into the Catholic Church, the husband had made odd comments abut a Catholic Church building that we passed frequently; he observed how he wished he could climb the bell tower and throw down the statues that were erected in it some years prior by an Italian priest. That was a sign of his dislike for aspects of Catholic worship and devotional practises. It wasn't sufficient for me to realise how deep his dislikes towards Catholicism and Catholics were. That only became clear when he started shunning me BECAUSE I had become a Catholic.

Some American Fundamentalists have alot of hostility towards Catholicism, especially in Presbyterianism and Baptist churches. Charles Hodge, a proto-Fundamentalist Princeton theologian, defended the validity of Roman Catholic baptisms, but many later Fundamentalists did not. It became one of the characteristics of the movement.

There is no firmly-established theological system in Japan. Shintoism, which is a default religion which deified the emperor, took a major hit when Japan lost face in World War II and surrendered to the United States, thereby admitting that the emperor was not actually divine. Curiously, the educational system in Japan has worked overtime to teach their version of the War which defines Japan as the helpless victim of American aggression which had orchestrated the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Buddhism is not a native religion in Japan but originated in India and found its way to Japan via China. The Japanese developed Buddhism in their own particular way, commonly known as Zen.

Neither Shintoism or Buddhism makes exclusive claims to truth, such that many people can visit both sorts of temples and engage in rituals in them without any reservations.

Why are exclusive truth claims definitive of sincerity or authenticity of a religion?

There are many Quakers or mainline Protestants that do not have exclusivist claims about truth, either. Are they merely aping religion?

This is also true of Daoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism in China. In Japan, as in China, there is a very strong adulation of all things American, including Christianity. It is now extremely popular in Japan to have one's wedding on one day at a Shinto temple and on another day at a Christian chapel attached to a luxury hotel. The chapels are excellent renditions of Modern American Protestant churches. The Christian services performed are not by an actual Christian pastor, but a paid employee of the hotel who goes through the typical wedding ritual one will find in most American church weddings. If one was not aware of this situation, one would conclude that all involved are believing Christians.

I don't know how widespread that practice actually is. I haven't heard of it being widespread. I suppose it may have been a fad in Tokyo, but most Japanese that would get such a wedding ceremony are under no illusion they are participating in a Christian religious rite. They just like the aesthetics. That doesn't mean that when they go to a Shinto or Buddhist temple, that they aren't participating in something recognizably religious.

Some Buddhist temples in the US and Japan have things like pews, even occasionally an organ or piano, and the English word "bishop" is used to translate the Japanese word kantoku (superintendent, chancellor). Does this mean they are confused religiously? Or simply that they have appropriated things that seem useful?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Some American Fundamentalists have alot of hostility towards Catholicism

The gentleman was English; it seems that anti-Catholicism is common among English evangelicals.

 

[FireDragon76]

The gentleman was English; it seems that anti-Catholicism is common among English evangelicals.

There are fundamentalist Christians in the UK, too, though they didn't gain as much traction as in the US. The Plymouth Brethren are notorious for their anti-Catholicism.

 

[Dan Perez]

I'm confused. I thought you were saying that being excluded from an assembly was a good thing for you. Was it a good thing or a bad thing for you? Are you arguing that shunning is a good thing or a bad thing, in general?



Yeah, I'm not totally sure what Romans 16 means. Paul seems to be saying to separate yourself from people who cause separations. When I get to heaven, maybe I'll ask him to clarify what he wrote.

Here is the break down of Rom 16:17 .

#1 I BESEECH / PARAKALEO , is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , INDICATIVE MOOD and means it is a FACT '

#2 YOU / HYMAS is a PERSONAL POSSESSIVE PRONOUN , in the ACCUSATIVE CASE , in the PLURAL .

#3 BRETHREN / ADELHOS , in the VOCATIVE CASE , in th PLURAL .

#4 MARK / SKOPEO , in the PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , INFINITE

#5 DIVISIONS / DICHOSTASIA in the ACCUSATIVE CASE and means LIMITED to divisions and in the PLURAL and means , they are still causing DIVISIONS .

#6 AVOID / EKKLINO , in the AORIST TENSE , means the past tense , ACTIVE VOICE , IMPERATIVE MOOD means it is a command to AVOID THEM . and in the NEUTER which means tl avoid men and woman .

#7 Them / is a PERSONAL POSSESSIVE PRONOUN in the GENITIVE CASE an in the PLURAL .


dan p

 

[PloverWing]

Here is the break down of Rom 16:17 .

I have a Greek New Testament already, thanks. The issue isn't really one of grammar.

You really don't see any irony in the advise to divide yourself away from people who cause divisions?

 

[Fervent]

Yes, it is pretty simple.

Look, my religion is based on kindness and life, not cruelty and death. This is the theme I see throughout the Old and New Testaments, if we choose kindness and life, life will be better for us and we will be truly godly. You can focus on bronze age peculiarities of a people and their religion, I choose to focus on what is truly timeless.



He was speaking in terms of a parable and relating a spiritual message through a story that his contemporaries could relate to. Taking this parable literally is the wrong approach.

Kindness and life are not synonymous, and you seem to minimize the severity of God as if the Old Testament laws are not divinely inspired but simply "bronze age peculiarities." Which is essentially snipping out the parts of the Bible you don't like, in favor of modern pluralist sensibilities.

Relating things through a parable doesn't fundamentally change what is said, so its not a matter of literal vs figurative interpretation. The parable itself would have been complete enough with simply the discussion of the minas being taken from the one who has little and given to the one who has much, but Jesus added the layer of slaying the enemies of the king before him which casts a great deal of suspicion on an image of Jesus that opposes capital punishment on a religious basis.

 

[FireDragon76]

Kindness and life are not synonymous, and you seem to minimize the severity of God as if the Old Testament laws are not divinely inspired but simply "bronze age peculiarities." Which is essentially snipping out the parts of the Bible you don't like, in favor of modern pluralist sensibilities.

I have heard that polemic before. And I'm unpersuaded by it. I'd have to toss out the better part of two centuries of religious hermeneutics... for a foundation that looks firm, but is ultimately even more unstable and shoddy.

 

[Dan Perez]

The gentleman and his wife had been friends since 1978, the shunning started in 2006, 28 years of friendship were abandoned as if they never existed. It was harsh and deliberate and extended. I cannot help but think it arose from a very troubled and troubling religious bigotry. Prior to the events that led to my reception into the Catholic Church, the husband had made odd comments abut a Catholic Church building that we passed frequently; he observed how he wished he could climb the bell tower and throw down the statues that were erected in it some years prior by an Italian priest. That was a sign of his dislike for aspects of Catholic worship and devotional practises. It wasn't sufficient for me to realise how deep his dislikes towards Catholicism and Catholics were. That only became clear when he started shunning me BECAUSE I had become a Catholic.

This is what God said to Israel .

In DEUT 7:3-4 , Jews were not to intermarry .

Read Neh 13:3 and Neh 13:25-27

2 Cor 6:14

Ezra 9:1-2

dan p