Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[lori milne]

Nice versus I liked that a lot I'm looking for more like this!!! So I can stop the crazy train! Correct me but I only saw the meaning as we didn't receive Gods grace or jesus to come and forgive our sins Because we we're righteous which is a pretty obvious duh statement.

I'm delving into righteousness now in scripture
Thanks for the verses

 

[Job8]

Nice versus I liked that a lot I'm looking for more like this!!! So I can stop the crazy train!
Correct me but I only saw the meaning as we didn't receive Gods grace or jesus to come and forgive our sins
Because we we're righteous which is a pretty obvious duh statement.

We received God's grace while we were yet sinners. And at the time we received His gift of eternal life, we received God's grace in full measure. At the same time we received IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS, just as Abraham received IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS, and every believer since Abel has received imputed righteousness.

What is imputed righteousness? It is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST put to the account of every person who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. To understand imputed righteousness, we go to Rom 3:21 - 5:11 and study that entire portion of Scripture. Justification (declared not guilty) goes hand in hand with imputed righteousness (as righteous as Christ).

 

[lori milne]

I'm delving into righteousness now in scripture Thanks for the verses

These are some of the verses that keep me on my search for true understanding of GRACE

This one seem to clearly imply
Grace is given after righteousness

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]5‬:[bless and do not curse]21‬ KJV

scriptural def of
Grace =Favor in Gods eyes
And righteous = is sins forgiven through repentance because of faith


Meaning faith = righteousness =grace = works
David exemplifies & confirms this through Paul's writings in romans

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin
Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]6-8‬ KJV
So
According to scripture
Righteousness were given with forgiven of sin

 

[Job8]

So According to scripture Righteousness were given with forgiven of sin

That is correct. Salvation is one complete package with many components.

 

[lori milne]

We received God's grace while we were yet sinners. And at the time we received His gift of eternal life, we received God's grace in full measure. At the same time we received IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS, just as Abraham received IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS, and every believer since Abel has received imputed righteousness. What is imputed righteousness? It is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST put to the account of every person who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. To understand imputed righteousness, we go to Rom 3:21 - 5:11 and study that entire portion of Scripture. Justification (declared not guilty) goes hand in hand with imputed righteousness (as righteous as Christ).

I've studied Romans 3-4:25

Imputed is given ?? Because of his faith ?

Therefore, V'YACHSHEVEH-HA LO TZEDAKAH ("it [his faith in G-d] was accounted, credited to him for righteousness" BERESHIS 15:6) ([bless and do not curse]Kehilah in Rome‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]22‬ OJB

Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision! And he received the ot (sign or distinguishing mark) of the milah (circumcision) as a chotam (seal) of the Tzidkat HaEmunah (the Righteousness of Faith) which he had in his uncircumcision, in order that he might be father of all who believe through uncircumcision, that to be YITZDAK IM HASHEM might be reckoned, counted to them as well, ([bless and do not curse]Kehilah in Rome‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]11‬ OJB)

Righteousness assumed /Given to them because of the faith
But according to scripture what is righteousness
Thank you for this
Btw

 

[lori milne]

Righteousness is counted for the sake of obedience to Gods law after / through Faith
De 6:25 Ro10:5 Luke 1:6 Ps 1:2
I found some scriptue

 

[lori milne]

I've studied Romans 3-4:25 Imputed is given ?? Because of his faith ? Therefore, V'YACHSHEVEH-HA LO TZEDAKAH ("it [his faith in G-d] was accounted, credited to him for righteousness" BERESHIS 15:6) ([bless and do not curse]Kehilah in Rome‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]22‬ OJB Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision! And he received the ot (sign or distinguishing mark) of the milah (circumcision) as a chotam (seal) of the Tzidkat HaEmunah (the Righteousness of Faith) which he had in his uncircumcision, in order that he might be father of all who believe through uncircumcision, that to be YITZDAK IM HASHEM might be reckoned, counted to them as well, ([bless and do not curse]Kehilah in Rome‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]11‬ OJB) Righteousness assumed /Given to them because of the faith But according to scripture what is righteousness Thank you for this Btw

Thanks for the help so far anyways
You've been very helpful

 

[bling]

I said this:
"Sorry, but Esau's birthright has nothing to do with our salvation. Wrong analogy. The free gift of God is eternal life (Rom 6:23) which is also irrevocable (Rom 11:29). This is irrefutable and undeniable."

I don't understand your statement, given what I said, that you responded to.

You said the birthright: “has nothing to do with our salvation”, so what do you say the author is referring to; in describing something Christians own and can give or sell that they should not?

Eternal life in heaven is referred to as our inheritance and the Hebrew writer is giving us the example of Esau selling his inheritance and saying we should not do the same. So that analogy seems to be an excellent fit?

How does this relate to eternal security?

We do not have “eternal security” it is always contingent on our desire to have salvation.

There are zero verses to support the idea that salvation is returnable. None.

I did not say it was “returnable”, satan is wanting us to give him our salvation (birthright).

It is described as a “gift” to us, and not God’s possession that we are stewards over.

Gal. 6: 8-10 explains very plainly that we can give up and thus not have a harvest of eternal life.

The problem with such as view is that what the Bible calls salvation has a lot of things involved, NONE of which are returnable. For example, we become a child of God. Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26.

We are justified. Rom 5:1

We are forgiven. Acts 10:43

Jesus used 3 tenses for eternal life:
present tense - HAS eternal life
past tense - HAS crossed over from death to life
future tense - will NOT come into condemnation

All that is true on God’s part, but it never says man’s free will is removed and man himself cannot walk away. God is not chaining man to his salvation.

The only description anywhere in Romans for a "gift" (charisma) is regarding spiritual gifts in 1:11, eternal life in 5:15,16 and 6:23, before he wrote 11:29.

If “election” is not an unconditional charitable gift from God than what do you feel it is?

The word “gift” is left out, so does that mean it is not a “gift”, but some kind of obligation?

And, your passage doesn't even mention "gift" until v.29. And it wasn't about election in that passage anyway. And election is never described as a gift.

I said this:
"I do not see anything here that speaks of either selling or giving away your salvation. We are held in God's hand. Jn 10:28-29."

There is nothing in Jn 10:28-29 about not inheriting eternal life if one walks away. And there are no verses anywhere that teach this.


It was irrelevant to the facts. Paul was clear about what he meant by "gifts" (charisma). Eternal life is a gift and gifts are irrevocable.

The “gift” of being born a Jews is irrevocable from God’s part, but where all born of the seed of Abraham and the promise truly “Jews”?

The concept of "reaping" involves abundance. The same principle is found in Jn 10:10, where Jesus said He came that the sheep would have life and have it more abundantly. iow, there is eternal life, and there is abundant eternal life. Which deals with eternal rewards beyond just being in heaven.

Here is the Greek word for "reap" used both positively and negatively:
theridō

1) to reap, harvest
2) proverbial expression for sowing and reaping
3) cut off, destroy
3a) as crops are cut down with a sickle

Paul spells it out very specifically in this analogy: “…whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” And “…for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”

Sure, God brings forth the harvest. What does this have to do with the discussion, though?

Eternal life is not the result of our “works”.

Please provide Scriptural support for this statement.

1 Tim. 5: 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

Paul is talking about Christian young widows since he would not be counseling non-Christian women?

Which doesn't have anything to do with loss of salvation. Or there'd be some verses that teach such.

Is there “salvation” from things in this world or only salvation we will have in heaven?

Once we believe, and are saved, lack of surrender at any point in our lives will result in loss of reward, as noted by 1 Cor 3:15. Not loss of salvation.

If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

It is obvious that it isn't loss of salvation here, but loss of something else, based on our works, or deeds.

What “works” are being referenced here?

2 Jn 8 - Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

That is what all the warning passages are warning about; loss of eternal rewards.

OK, tell me this, what “rewards” (earned?) do you go to heaven with that others going to heaven will not have in heaven?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

That as sin hath reigned unto death(the penalty of sin is death, so we all can see that after sin, Adam & Eve indeed did die), even so might grace (God's unmerited favor towards us) reign (become higher than sin and higher than death) through righteousness (the righteousness of Christ, who died for our sins) unto eternal life (our life after earth, which is heaven) by Jesus Christ our Lord (through Jesus Christ's death and sacrifice)

Romans‬ 5‬:21‬ KJV

scriptural def of
Grace =Favor in Gods eyes
And righteous = is sins forgiven through repentance because of faith


Meaning faith = righteousness =grace = works (this is ALL WRONG)
David exemplifies & confirms this through Paul's writings in romans

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin
Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]6-8‬ KJV
So
According to scripture
Righteousness were given with forgiven of sin

See red above.

Purple text

Faith leads us to the Savior for salvation and is our belief that Jesus was the Son of God and is able to forgive sins.
Righteousness is IMPUTED to us because we are IN Christ.
Grace is the unmerited favor that Christ shows us at salvation and continues to show us through His always forgiving sin and other things.
Works are what we cannot do to earn our way to heaven. All our good deeds are like filthy rags.

 

[lori milne]

See red above. Purple text Faith leads us to the Savior for salvation and is our belief that Jesus was the Son of God and is able to forgive sins. Righteousness is IMPUTED to us because we are IN Christ. Grace is the unmerited favor that Christ shows us at salvation and continues to show us through His always forgiving sin and other things. Works are what we cannot do to earn our way to heaven. All our good deeds are like filthy rags.

I'm trying to use scripture to find what this "formula "is Because it's such a confusing topic with so many of believers today. Every one has a different take on it for the most part.

It is not clear to me why jesus says repent or sin no more? Or why he doesn't confuse works with repenting.
I don't want to misunderstand his teachings at all and in still on my search for that to reveal it self through the word.
what said does make sense because I've heard that my entire life and I do get it I just don't get it? Or I guess believe it. :
I started this search to try and understand it and found my self on this crazy train "go figure :/

What I do think is awesome and totally fuel for the fire is in the OT it speaks of FAITH as an understanding or believing in God and the gospel.
I assume it was called the tora then?

But jesus had a message of FAITH to and it connects to the same understanding and meaning I think?
It seems to shows he took all OT teachings and simplified them to a clearer understanding for people who forgot or distorted the FAITH .
Or like me simply don't get it :/
Still searching for truth
God bless

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Sorry, but Esau's birthright has nothing to do with our salvation. Wrong analogy. The free gift of God is eternal life (Rom 6:23) which is also irrevocable (Rom 11:29). This is irrefutable and undeniable."

You said the birthright: “has nothing to do with our salvation”, so what do you say the author is referring to; in describing something Christians own and can give or sell that they should not?

Esau's birthright has nothing to do with salvation. And there was no interaction or response to Rom 6:23 and 11:29. Eternal life is irrevocable. And no verse says that one can return eternal life. And since such life is eternal, it cannot die.

Eternal life in heaven is referred to as our inheritance and the Hebrew writer is giving us the example of Esau selling his inheritance and saying we should not do the same. So that analogy seems to be an excellent fit?

No, it doesn't. The inheritance in Hebrew is eternal reward, not salvation. The promised land had to be taken. That's works, or effort. We are not saved by works or effort. But we ARE rewarded for works or effort.

We do not have “eternal security” it is always contingent on our desire to have salvation.

What verse teaches this?

I did not say it was “returnable”, satan is wanting us to give him our salvation (birthright).

what verse teaches this?

Gal. 6: 8-10 explains very plainly that we can give up and thus not have a harvest of eternal life.

The word "harvest" refers to blessings. Just as Jesus came that the sheep might have life (eternal) and have it more abundantly (blessings, rewards).

All that is true on God’s part, but it never says man’s free will is removed and man himself cannot walk away.

Yes, man CAN walk away from his faith. But there are no verses that say that if one walks away, they lose salvation.

God is not chaining man to his salvation.

Poor choice of words. Being saved involves much. Becoming a child of God. Being forgiven forensically. Given eternal life. Being justified. None of these things are said to be losable in any sense.

Once a child, always a child.

If “election” is not an unconditional charitable gift from God than what do you feel it is?

Biblical election is being chosen for special privilege and service. Not salvation.

The only description anywhere in Romans for a "gift" (charisma) is regarding spiritual gifts in 1:11, eternal life in 5:15,16 and 6:23, before he wrote 11:29.

The word “gift” is left out, so does that mean it is not a “gift”, but some kind of obligation?

The reason we don't find the word "gift" between 6:23 and 11:29 is because Paul wasn't thinking of "gift" until 11:29. The offer of a gift is not a gift. It's that simple.

The “gift” of being born a Jews is irrevocable from God’s part

I don't accept that being born a Jew is a gift in any sense. There are no verses to support this idea.

Eternal life is not the result of our “works”.

Of course not. It is the result of believing in Christ. Jn 3:16, 6:40, 20:31

1 Tim. 5: 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

What does this verse support?

OK, tell me this, what “rewards” (earned?) do you go to heaven with that others going to heaven will not have in heaven?

Rom 8:17b, 2 Tim 2:12, and many of the parables are about eternal rewards, like ruling cities.

 

[lori milne]

Lori, Here is what Scripture presents (Tit 3:4-7), and this passage covers everything : 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. FIRST -- GOD'S GRACE (Love, Mercy, Kindness) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS EXCLUDED Not by works of righteousness which we have done, MERCY EXCLUSIVELY THE BASIS OF SALVATION according to his mercy he saved us, THE NEW BIRTH COMES FROM BELIEVING (OR FAITH) (See Jn 1:12,13) by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; THE NEW BIRTH COMES WITH JUSTIFICATION That being justified by his grace, THE NEW BIRTH MEANS BEING MADE HEIRS OF GOD we should be made heirs SALVATION COMES WITH THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE according to the hope of eternal life. RIGHTEOUSNESS IMPUTED TO THE ONE WHO BELIEVES To tie this in with Romans 4, we simply need to look at Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Sorry got lost ;
I absolutely LOVE that you broke it down like that .
What is righteousness according to scripture
Sticking with the example you used


Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin
Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]6-8‬ KJV

 

[bling]

I said this:
"Sorry, but Esau's birthright has nothing to do with our salvation. Wrong analogy. The free gift of God is eternal life (Rom 6:23) which is also irrevocable (Rom 11:29). This is irrefutable and undeniable."

Esau's birthright has nothing to do with salvation. And there was no interaction or response to Rom 6:23 and 11:29. Eternal life is irrevocable. And no verse says that one can return eternal life. And since such life is eternal, it cannot die.

I have asked you to explain the analogy of Esau’s birthright used by the Hebrew writer in Heb. 12, which you keep avoid doing. I have explained that analogy and all you have said: “Wrong analogy”.

You also go back to the verses which I did explain and do not apply to eternal life in Ro. 6 and 11 to try and explain it is “irrevocable”.

No, it doesn't. The inheritance in Hebrew is eternal reward, not salvation. The promised land had to be taken. That's works, or effort. We are not saved by works or effort. But we ARE rewarded for works or effort.

Where does it say this is referring to some heavenly “reward” and not heaven itself?

What verse teaches this?

Gal. 6: 8-10 and Heb. 12 which I have been talking about.

There is also all these “warnings” given Christians, which you say only refers to some heavenly rewards and not heaven itself, but have not shown where that is found in scripture (it just seems to go against your conclusion)?

what verse teaches this?

There are lots of New Testament verses on satan attacking Christians and warning Christians about satan trying to leading them away.

Again you can go back to Gal. 6:8-10 to help you.

The word "harvest" refers to blessings. Just as Jesus came that the sheep might have life (eternal) and have it more abundantly (blessings, rewards).

Sorry that is not specifically what scripture says, but Paul spells it out very specifically in this analogy: “…whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” And “…for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”

Yes, man CAN walk away from his faith. But there are no verses that say that if one walks away, they lose salvation.

If man “walks away from his faith”, is man not also walking away from trusting in the Love of God, so man is trusting in himself?

Poor choice of words. Being saved involves much. Becoming a child of God. Being forgiven forensically. Given eternal life. Being justified. None of these things are said to be losable in any sense.

Once a child, always a child.

That is the assumption you make in laying aside all the warnings as being “insignificant” when it comes to eternal life in heaven and specific verses like Gal. 6: 8-10.

Man still has free will even after becoming a Christian.

Biblical election is being chosen for special privilege and service. Not salvation.

You will have to explain that further.

The only description anywhere in Romans for a "gift" (charisma) is regarding spiritual gifts in 1:11, eternal life in 5:15,16 and 6:23, before he wrote 11:29.

The reason we don't find the word "gift" between 6:23 and 11:29 is because Paul wasn't thinking of "gift" until 11:29. The offer of a gift is not a gift. It's that simple.


I don't accept that being born a Jew is a gift in any sense. There are no verses to support this idea.

What do you think it was?

Of course not. It is the result of believing in Christ. Jn 3:16, 6:40, 20:31


What does this verse support?

The idea that some Christians “turned away” to follow satan. If this is not talking about Christians they would not have turned since they already were following satan.

Rom 8:17b, 2 Tim 2:12, and many of the parables are about eternal rewards, like ruling cities.

OK, so you “rule” a huge city in heaven and I live in a cardboard box on the street outside your city. Will you ask me to join you, sit at your table, have a room in your mansion and would you wash my feet?

Are “rulers” in the spiritual realm really servant, serving others (like Christ)?

If in heaven you have a greater Love, so you Love me more than I Love you, who is the winner and loser in that scenario?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

This is a good thought at the end about ruling cities and what things will be like in heaven.

Like the previous poster clarified (my reply is not working, CF has been having difficulties the past few days), that in heaven will we be rulers or servants?

If we are like our Lord in heaven, we will indeed be servants.

Good thought. Wonderful thought. Nothing wrong with being a servant, Jesus brought glory to the Father in serving. What glory Jesus did not give Himself, the Father did indeed give Him.

This servant relationship is very interesting when we delve into it. In heaven the first will be the last and the last will be the first!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have asked you to explain the analogy of Esau’s birthright used by the Hebrew writer in Heb. 12, which you keep avoid doing.

I did explain that it had nothing to do with salvation, which I believe, was your point. So I will explain what it was. He, as the firstborn, was entitled to the "firstborn's inheritance" rights. But he gave it away. That was a literal inheritance right, and again, has nothing to do with salvation. After giving it away, he was unable to get that privilege back, even though he sought it with tears. His father would not change his mind (no repentance). The whole book of Hebrews is about eternal reward. Not salvation.

I have explained that analogy and all you have said: “Wrong analogy”.

That's all there was to say about it.

You also go back to the verses which I did explain and do not apply to eternal life in Ro. 6 and 11 to try and explain it is “irrevocable”.

lol Rom 6:23 is about eternal life, which is salvation. And 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable. Eternal life is irrevocable. That is irrefutable.

Where does it say this is referring to some heavenly “reward” and not heaven itself?

In the "hall of faith" of ch 11, note 10, 13, 14, 16, 26 (esp), 39 (esp). They are referring to more than heaven. If salvation, or just getting to heaven, then how would one explain v.13 and 39? It says they didn't receive the things promised when they died. That would mean they didn't get to heaven, if heaven was the focus. But the whole chapter refers to the New Jerusalem (Rev 21) which, in context, is about reward in eternity.

There is also all these “warnings” given Christians, which you say only refers to some heavenly rewards and not heaven itself, but have not shown where that is found in scripture (it just seems to go against your conclusion)?

Pick out any warning, and try to show where in any of those passages the warning is about loss of salvation.

There are lots of New Testament verses on satan attacking Christians and warning Christians about satan trying to leading them away.

Yes, there are. So?

Again you can go back to Gal. 6:8-10 to help you.

I believe I have already addressed this, but I'm happy to do so again. To "reap" eternal life refers to the blessings and reward beyond just entering heaven. Jesus noted as much in Jn 10:10, when He said that He would die for everyone (the sheep) so that they may have life (salvation) and have it MORE ABUNDANTLY (rewards).

If man “walks away from his faith”, is man not also walking away from trusting in the Love of God, so man is trusting in himself?

At that point, the die is cast. He HAS become a new creature, born again, a child of God. Where does Scripture teach that these are reversible or forfeited?

That is the assumption you make in laying aside all the warnings as being “insignificant” when it comes to eternal life in heaven and specific verses like Gal. 6: 8-10.

I've NEVER said any of the warnings are insignificant. They are ALL highly significant. When God warns, we better pay attention. But one must have the discernment to understand that eternal life is irrevocable, and the warnings about about loss of future blessings and reward.

Man still has free will even after becoming a Christian.

Yep. But that is not relevant to the issue of eternal security. No believer holds on to their salvation by free will, and no one loses it by free will.

You will have to explain that further.

I said this: "Biblical election is being chosen for special privilege and service. Not salvation." That is clear enough. God choses people for special privilege and service. And this includes unbelievers. Here are the 6 categories of election that I have found in Scripture:

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.
1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him…

5. Other elections:
Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
Apostles: John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you , and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

Note that Christ wasn't chosen for salvation, nor the entire people of Israel in the OT. Many did not believe. And we can't say anything about angels because the Bible doesn't give us any details about them and election. And Judas, one of the 12, was chosen, yet was a devil (Jn 6:70).

Yet, all these categories involve special privilege and service, even Christ.

What do you think it was?

I'm not sure what is being asked. The topic was the "gift" of Rom 11:29 and your contention that 11:29 referred to Israel being chosen as a gift.

Yet, there is no Scripture that refers to Israel's election as a gift; either in Romans or any other book of the Bible.

The gift of Rom 11:29 refers back to 5:15,16 (justification) and 6:23 (eternal life). That is how context works.

The idea that some Christians “turned away” to follow satan. If this is not talking about Christians they would not have turned since they already were following satan.

Yes, some have turned away to follow Satan.

OK, so you “rule” a huge city in heaven and I live in a cardboard box on the street outside your city. Will you ask me to join you, sit at your table, have a room in your mansion and would you wash my feet?

I have no use for any attempt to minimize eternal rewards, or to mock them. I think one can to better than that. When the Bible speaks of ruling cities, it doesn't use quotes, which I take as a sign of sarcasm.

Are “rulers” in the spiritual realm really servant, serving others (like Christ)?

In the Millennium and then the eternal state, Christ won't be a servant. He will be the ruling King. I have no idea what is meant by your "spiritual realm" is referring to.

If in heaven you have a greater Love, so you Love me more than I Love you, who is the winner and loser in that scenario?

To be sure, there will be winners and losers in heaven, though it seems very few believers understand that, including most pastors. But 2 Jn 8 is a clear warning about not losing reward. Jesus was clear about that as well.

Which scenario seems better:
to be in heaven but having no position of authority or sharing in the rulership of Christ, or to have a position of authority and sharing in the rulership of Christ?

Some people will say they will be happy just to be near Jesus in heaven. Well, that's quite nice. But guess what: to be near Him, one must have earned a throne on which to sit to be near Him. Because only those who have earned that privilege and reward will be the closest to Him.

So, the point of Hebrews: take your pick. Rewards through works, or not.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on Rom 8:38. What does "things present nor things future" refer to in that context? Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is a good thought at the end about ruling cities and what things will be like in heaven.

Like the previous poster clarified (my reply is not working, CF has been having difficulties the past few days), that in heaven will we be rulers or servants?

If we are like our Lord in heaven, we will indeed be servants.

I do not believe that Christ will be a servant in heaven now, nor during the Millennial rule, nor in the eternal state, per Rev 21.

 

[lori milne]

It is clear God warns us clearly to be careful for satin will try to turn you away from the faith and His directions to us to not be turned away is fear and obey His voice!!

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee
Deuteronomy‬ [bless and do not curse]13‬:[bless and do not curse]3-5‬ KJV

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I do not believe that Christ will be a servant in heaven now, nor during the Millennial rule, nor in the eternal state, per Rev 21.

I probably did not word that the best. Point taken.

 

[bling]

I did explain that it had nothing to do with salvation, which I believe, was your point. So I will explain what it was. He, as the firstborn, was entitled to the "firstborn's inheritance" rights. But he gave it away. That was a literal inheritance right, and again, has nothing to do with salvation. After giving it away, he was unable to get that privilege back, even though he sought it with tears. His father would not change his mind (no repentance). The whole book of Hebrews is about eternal reward. Not salvation.


That's all there was to say about it.

I am not suggesting Esau gave up his salvation to Jacob (that is silly). The Hebrew writer is using this as an analogy for what Christians can do and should not do with their birthright from being Christians.

If that is not the way the “analogy” is being used by the Hebrew writer than explain the lesson the Hebrew writer is trying to get across to Christians about their birthright?

So the Hebrew writer screwed up? The analogy could not be better, but it is an analogy and not an exact same example. So explain what lesson the Hebrew writer was trying to get across with the analogy, especially from the context?

lol Rom 6:23 is about eternal life, which is salvation. And 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable. Eternal life is irrevocable. That is irrefutable

.
Ro. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again we see “the gift” being eternal life, which means it is truly our possession to do with as we please (we can sell it or give it away, like Esua did with the gift of his birthright).

Ro. 11:29 from post 126:

The “elect” in this passage is referring to blood descendants (Jews) of the patriarchs which were gifted to be God’s chosen people here on earth at least until Christianity came into its fullness (might be up to the destruction of the temple 70 AD). In the context (especially of Ro. 9-11) the “elect” in Ro. 11:29 is not referring to those given salvation, but to the Jews by blood. From what we know: “all” Jews after Paul’s letter did not accept God’s mercy (salvation), so this election could not mean unto salvation.

I fully agree: God will not “revoke” His gift of eternal life or take it back, since it is ours, but that does not keep us from doing other things with our gift like giving it to satan.

In the context of Ro. 11:29 it is talking about the Jews being descendants of the promise and God not taking that back, but in other place we learn “not all Jews are true Jews” Ro. 9: 6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

In the "hall of faith" of ch 11, note 10, 13, 14, 16, 26 (esp), 39 (esp). They are referring to more than heaven. If salvation, or just getting to heaven, then how would one explain v.13 and 39? It says they didn't receive the things promised when they died. That would mean they didn't get to heaven, if heaven was the focus. But the whole chapter refers to the New Jerusalem (Rev 21) which, in context, is about reward in eternity.

None of Hebrews 11 suggest these heroes of faith received any greater “reward” than you, I or anyone that is saved?

The things they “did not receive, but were promised” has to do with what we have gotten: 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

We have the indwelling Holy Spirit in this life those before did not have.

As far as Rev. 21 that is a huge topic. Briefly it is talking about the Spiritual Kingdom (the New Jerusalem) that exist today, in very poetic language.

Pick out any warning, and try to show where in any of those passages the warning is about loss of salvation.

What else is truly significant?

Yes, there are. So?

If they return to being servants of satan they will not be saved?

I believe I have already addressed this, but I'm happy to do so again. To "reap" eternal life refers to the blessings and reward beyond just entering heaven. Jesus noted as much in Jn 10:10, when He said that He would die for everyone (the sheep) so that they may have life (salvation) and have it MORE ABUNDANTLY (rewards).

You say: “To "reap" eternal life refers to the blessings and reward beyond just entering heaven”, but Paul only mentions eternal life very specifically, so this is something you have added to that verse?

The “Life” and the “more abundant life” is in contrast to what the nonbeliever has. Yes! Every saved individual gets not only a “life”, but also gets to be a part of God’s work while here on earth (we have a wonderful objective) and we can actually share in God’s Glory by having God live and work through us and thus as God is glorified in us we share in that glory by our presence.

At that point, the die is cast. He HAS become a new creature, born again, a child of God. Where does Scripture teach that these are reversible or forfeited?

It is not being revered, but is being given up, the individual still has free will.

I've NEVER said any of the warnings are insignificant. They are ALL highly significant. When God warns, we better pay attention. But one must have the discernment to understand that eternal life is irrevocable, and the warnings about about loss of future blessings and reward.

What future blessings and rewards have any significance in comparison to eternal life with God?

Yep. But that is not relevant to the issue of eternal security. No believer holds on to their salvation by free will, and no one loses it by free will.

Can you describe the benefit of your free will?

I said this: "Biblical election is being chosen for special privilege and service. Not salvation." That is clear enough. God choses people for special privilege and service. And this includes unbelievers. Here are the 6 categories of election that I have found in Scripture:

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.
1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

OK

2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

OK

3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

Where the angels that followed satan also “elected”?

4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him…

All those in the church were invited to the banquet, but that does not say all those that did not decide to go to the banquet were not also invited?

5. Other elections:
Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
Apostles: John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you , and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

OK

Note that Christ wasn't chosen for salvation, nor the entire people of Israel in the OT. Many did not believe. And we can't say anything about angels because the Bible doesn't give us any details about them and election. And Judas, one of the 12, was chosen, yet was a devil (Jn 6:70).

.

Yet, all these categories involve special privilege and service, even Christ.

God has many elections, which includes electing that all that humbly accept His Charity and continue to desire His charity , God will save.

I'm not sure what is being asked. The topic was the "gift" of Rom 11:29 and your contention that 11:29 referred to Israel being chosen as a gift.

Yet, there is no Scripture that refers to Israel's election as a gift; either in Romans or any other book of the Bible.

If Israel did not earn their election, deserve to be born a descendent of Abraham, than how else would you describe their election as being other than a gift?

The gift of Rom 11:29 refers back to 5:15,16 (justification) and 6:23 (eternal life). That is how context works.

You are going way too far back. Chapters 9-11 is instruction to the Jewish Christians and Jews in general, which can help the gentiles understand, but going back to chapters 5 and 6 is way too far.

Yes, some have turned away to follow Satan.

But you say they are still saved?

I have no use for any attempt to minimize eternal rewards, or to mock them. I think one can to better than that. When the Bible speaks of ruling cities, it doesn't use quotes, which I take as a sign of sarcasm.


In the Millennium and then the eternal state, Christ won't be a servant. He will be the ruling King. I have no idea what is meant by your "spiritual realm" is referring to.

Did Christ not tell us what Spiritual Leaders are like by washing feet?

To be sure, there will be winners and losers in heaven, though it seems very few believers understand that, including most pastors. But 2 Jn 8 is a clear warning about not losing reward. Jesus was clear about that as well.

There is nothing in 2 John 8 that suggest different rewards with some only getting a part and others getting a lot more?

Wow, “winners and losers” in heaven, how?

Which scenario seems better:
to be in heaven but having no position of authority or sharing in the rulership of Christ, or to have a position of authority and sharing in the rulership of Christ?

Some people will say they will be happy just to be near Jesus in heaven. Well, that's quite nice. But guess what: to be near Him, one must have earned a throne on which to sit to be near Him. Because only those who have earned that privilege and reward will be the closest to Him.

So, the point of Hebrews: take your pick. Rewards through works, or not.

What makes you joyous and what made Jesus joyous while here on earth and why would the same things not be true in heaven?

Does your greatest joy not come from sacrificially unconditionally serving others?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on Rom 8:38. What does "things present nor things future" refer to in that context? Thanks.

There is nothing outwardly that can separate us from God/Christ’s Love, but that does not mean we are out of control of ourselves and cannot of our own free will choose to walk away. If we walk away we cannot “blame” anyone else but ourselves.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am not suggesting Esau gave up his salvation to Jacob (that is silly). The Hebrew writer is using this as an analogy for what Christians can do and should not do with their birthright from being Christians.

If that is not the way the “analogy” is being used by the Hebrew writer than explain the lesson the Hebrew writer is trying to get across to Christians about their birthright?

Don't make stupid choices.

So the Hebrew writer screwed up?

No.

The analogy could not be better, but it is an analogy and not an exact same example. So explain what lesson the Hebrew writer was trying to get across with the analogy, especially from the context?

Don't lose your reward by making bad choices. That is the context, not salvation.

Ro. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again we see “the gift” being eternal life, which means it is truly our possession to do with as we please (we can sell it or give it away, like Esua did with the gift of his birthright).

The error is treating eternal life like some kind of coin or an object that can be lost, given away, etc. Salvation is so much more than that. It's not accurate to view salvation in the way that your view does. We become actual children of God. Can you give away your status of child to your parents? Of course not.

Ro. 11:29 from post 126:

The “elect” in this passage is referring to blood descendants (Jews) of the patriarchs which were gifted to be God’s chosen people here on earth at least until Christianity came into its fullness (might be up to the destruction of the temple 70 AD).

Since there is no verse anywhere in the Bible that describes the election of Israel as a gift, there is no reason to use that for Rom 11:29. Paul was clear in his letter to the Romans about what he meant by "gift". He defined it clearly.

In the context (especially of Ro. 9-11) the “elect” in Ro. 11:29 is not referring to those given salvation, but to the Jews by blood. From what we know: “all” Jews after Paul’s letter did not accept God’s mercy (salvation), so this election could not mean unto salvation.

Right. Election is not about salvation. But the gift of eternal life is irrevocable, according to Paul.

I fully agree: God will not “revoke” His gift of eternal life or take it back, since it is ours, but that does not keep us from doing other things with our gift like giving it to satan.

Except there isn't any verse in the Bible to suggest such a thing. Can one give away their physical relationship to their parents? No.

In the context of Ro. 11:29 it is talking about the Jews being descendants of the promise and God not taking that back, but in other place we learn “not all Jews are true Jews” Ro. 9: 6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

I see nothing here of relevancy to what God's gifts are. You've not established that Paul was "thinking" of the election of Israel as a gift. And nowhere is that ever described as a gift.

None of Hebrews 11 suggest these heroes of faith received any greater “reward” than you, I or anyone that is saved?

Please don't put quotes around reward. The promise of reward is real and promised to every believer who lives an obedient faithful life on earth. And those who don't will forfeit their reward.

[QUTOE]The things they “did not receive, but were promised” has to do with what we have gotten: 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.[/QUOTE]
What they didn't yet is the reward promised. But all faithful believers will receive the reward. Remember when we get rewarded; when Christ returns, per Rev 22:12.

We have the indwelling Holy Spirit in this life those before did not have.

This is not relevant to the issue of gifts.

As far as Rev. 21 that is a huge topic. Briefly it is talking about the Spiritual Kingdom (the New Jerusalem) that exist today, in very poetic language.

Nope. It is not spiritual but physical and real. Rev 21:1 and 2 Pet both are talking about the same thing.

If they return to being servants of satan they will not be saved?

No. Ro 8:38 prevents that.

[QUTOE]You say: “To "reap" eternal life refers to the blessings and reward beyond just entering heaven”, but Paul only mentions eternal life very specifically, so this is something you have added to that verse?[/QUOTE]
You've missed the point. To reap refers to blessings, not just eternal life. And I gave supporting verses to affirm this.

The “Life” and the “more abundant life” is in contrast to what the nonbeliever has.

The unbeliever isn't even relevant here. Apples to oranges. The contrast is either having life, or having life more abundantly. Which would you rather have?

Yes! Every saved individual gets not only a “life”, but also gets to be a part of God’s work while here on earth (we have a wonderful objective) and we can actually share in God’s Glory by having God live and work through us and thus as God is glorified in us we share in that glory by our presence.

This isn't about life on this earth. As Heb 11 reveals, many believers suffered greatly. While God was glorified by their work, what were they feeling? They will be rewarded.

I'm always amazed at the apparent lack of understanding or appreciation for the doctrine of eternal rewards. So many believers seem to fight the very idea.
I said this:
"At that point, the die is cast. He HAS become a new creature, born again, a child of God. Where does Scripture teach that these are reversible or forfeited?"

It is not being revered, but is being given up, the individual still has free will.

None of what I listed can be reversed. No verse even suggests such a thing.

And none of these can be given up. And free will has nothing to do with the things that God does for us. We don't help Him getting these things, and we can't undo what God does. Preposterous to even think that way.

What future blessings and rewards have any significance in comparison to eternal life with God?

The same as the comparison between life and abundant life.

What's the difference between having a crop and having an abundant crop?

Can you describe the benefit of your free will?

Huh? Generally we mess up with our choices. I said no one holds their salvation by freewill and no one can lose their salvation by freewill. Your comment doesn't seem relevant to the issue.

Where the angels that followed satan also “elected”?

Apparently not. The Bible describes fallen and elect angels.

If Israel did not earn their election, deserve to be born a descendent of Abraham, than how else would you describe their election as being other than a gift?

I prefer how Scripture describes gifts, not how you or I would. And Israel's election is NEVER described as a gift. So, Biblically, one cannot say that Rom 11:29 refers to Israel's election.

You are going way too far back. Chapters 9-11 is instruction to the Jewish Christians and Jews in general, which can help the gentiles understand, but going back to chapters 5 and 6 is way too far.

Context within the letter. That is totally legit. And see where Paul describes what he calls "gift".

But you say they are still saved?

The Bible teaches it. But, please don't forget; there are severe warnings to those of God's children to disobey. Ain't purty.

Did Christ not tell us what Spiritual Leaders are like by washing feet?

He was teaching humility among His disciples.

There is nothing in 2 John 8 that suggest different rewards with some only getting a part and others getting a lot more?

I believe the verse is quite clear about not losing what was worked for.

Wow, “winners and losers” in heaven, how?

I think it's sad how many believers have no understanding of this. It should be obvious that Satan doesn't want God's children to know about it.

I said this:
"Which scenario seems better:
to be in heaven but having no position of authority or sharing in the rulership of Christ, or to have a position of authority and sharing in the rulership of Christ?

Some people will say they will be happy just to be near Jesus in heaven. Well, that's quite nice. But guess what: to be near Him, one must have earned a throne on which to sit to be near Him. Because only those who have earned that privilege and reward will be the closest to Him.

So, the point of Hebrews: take your pick. Rewards through works, or not."

What makes you joyous and what made Jesus joyous while here on earth and why would the same things not be true in heaven?

Your response doesn't address my question.

Does your greatest joy not come from sacrificially unconditionally serving others?

Of course. And I know what awaits those who live this way.

There is nothing outwardly that can separate us from God/Christ’s Love, but that does not mean we are out of control of ourselves and cannot of our own free will choose to walk away.

To clarify once again; yes, believers can become rebellious, just like natural children in this world. But There is nothing in Rom 8:38 to differentiate what is "outward" vs "inward", as you've tried to suggest.

That verse is very clear; there is NOTHING in the present nor the future that can separate us from God's love. Paul is talking about anything that MAY OCCUR IN THE FUTURE. There is nothing about outward vs inward. Paul covered it all by "nothing present nor future".

If we walk away we cannot “blame” anyone else but ourselves.

Sure, for loss of significant reward. We are always accountable for our actions.

2 Cor 5:10 is very clear. And it isn't about loss of salvation.