Refusing to be vaccinated against Covid-19 is a ’sin’ & anti-vaxxers must spend their life repenting

truefiction1 said:

Well then, if it is not your vaccine, then you are unvaccinated with it; which is expressed as 0=0. If you are vaccinated with it then it is your vaccine; which is expressed by 1=1. That's how the math is done in my math book. Like I said, if I've assumed incorrectly regarding your vaccination status then I've made a ridiculous mistake. But my mathematical formula is still correct, if you will insist on using mathematics to demonstrate this. But I don't know why anyone would bring arithmetic to bear on the discussion. It just seems like a diversion away from the primary question of whether it is moral to benefit from products developed through experimentation performed on "products of conception" made available from elective abortions. This truly is the heart of the matter. Whatever side we choose on this question, the choice is ours, along with the responsibility for the choice. In other words, we own it. It's ours. I don't currently own the vaccine because I've chosen against it. Neither has it been placed within my bodily person. I don't own it physically or morally. If you don't either, then you should just come right out and say so. Or if you're on the fence and are just trying to figure out what side you should be on, then It would be good if you would say so. Frankly, the tone of your posts makes it look like you lean heavily towards moral justification for use of the products of conception from electively aborted fetuses in scientific experimentation, or are otherwise against it, but not against Christians benefiting from the products of conception themselves.

So if it's not too much to ask, are you decided and if so, what is your decision? If you haven't already done so elsewhere, please articulate clearly your own convicted answer to this moral question. After you've done so, then perhaps you'll be able to convince me that my "numbers" don't really add up correctly.

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abacabb3 said:

Short answer is no, but if I were dying I would have much more to think about as this issue has not been settled by any recent saints. If I were in my 50s I'd probably be hospitalized. Other family members were not affected profoundly. THe one family member who was vaccinated had zero symptoms. I am well aware that statistically, this is often not the case, so I am merely speaking of my own family. Also, I have no idea whether I would have had side effects from the vaccine, long term effects are unknown, and so it's hard to weigh cost and benefit.

What I am troubled by is that the popular vaccine technologies all manipulate RNA (the exception is a singular Chinese vaccine, Sinopharm, which is in fact the Coronavirus). As a matter of bioethics, not having a deified nous, I honestly do not know if it is moral to manipulate the workings of human cells at the mitochondrial level. Where do we draw the line? Can we take brain transplants? Metropolitan Philaret of Blessed Memory, whose body is incorrupt at Jordanville, said there can be no heart or lung transplants. So, what we will likely have form over time (as medical technology is speedier than saint canonizations) is a consensus over what medical procedures and medicines/elixirs are not allowable morally. The criteria for the Orthodox Christian is not, simply, if it is possible its permissible. Then we have Saint Paisios' repeated prophecies warning something just like what we have now--however, he also warned about ID cards, credit cards, and even dollar bills. This does not make him wrong, my intent is not to discredit him--but rather to contextualize his teaching.

And so, I do not feel comfortable with the vaccine until our generation's saints weigh in on it. Everything coming from it appears to buttress a inappropriate behavior with animals system and compromised bioethics. I do not see the positive fruit spiritually though there appears some genuine medical benefit for one family member I have.

However, if I were dying in a hospital leaving my son and wife, I'd probably see the ambiguity and decide with more clarity, maybe I should have got the vaccine. But then I would feel guilty for the aforementioned reasons and whatever that is not of faith is sin, as the Scriptures say. So, that reflects only upon my own sinfulness.

Again, short answer, no regrets. Long answer--it's more complicated.

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:

The vaccine issue is just one thing you use. Then there was the Zionist comment and Peter of all things! Now you say "in other words" while before you said it was MY vaccine. Now you say "from the tone of my voice". Wow you know everything about me and what I think! You guys even drove Gurney out of here. Again, if someone does not believe you or may disagree with any of what you say or your Nostradamian interpretations, you go after them. So no, I won't discuss anything regarding myself with you, vaccinated or not. That is not the point. It would seem anything anyone discusses with you and takes a position even slightly opposing yours for discussion's sake you will use it against them in some way, then twist things out of context, make connections where there are none and imply only you hold the truth. Maybe you should read what Rus wrote again. I mean look at what you wrote, it just proves my point!

"Maybe the problem isn't that there really is no connection between the various pictures I sometimes "paint" with my words. I'm not working mathematically. I'm working artistically and poetically, and even Theologically perhaps, and it could be that some individuals lack a capacity to see beyond the metaphor into the truth to which they point. If you continue with such assertions, I'll surely begin to realize more thoroughly what St. Paisios was referring to with other things that he had indicated was the case with some people."

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:

I think there are many people in the same position. Especially those un-vaccinated on death's door in the hospital who were against the vaccine and now have to consider their choice when it is now too late. So there could be guilt that one did not get vaccinated and also guilt if one did for the reasons you gave. It just shows our humanity. Is there sin we can not be forgiven from, whether intentional or unintentional if repented of??

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truefiction1 said:

I don't intend to attack your position. I've already stated my convicted decision on the matter, and highlighted everything that went into that decision. There isn't anything left for me to do now but live or die with the consequences of that decision. The connections or correlations I drew are real. I know what makes them real. Many others won't. If this were not the case, then nobody would ever be persecuted on account of decisions formed on connections that many others aren't able to see. In my case the persecution has already begun, and it will probably get much worse, whether I like it or not. So be it.

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Antoni said:

I treated a once healthy 14 year old girl for shingles today. First time in my career I saw a young teenager with shingles. Guess what my first question was when I saw it? Guess what her answer was?

and she had the vaccine months ago. NOT normal for a 14 yo girl to have shingles unless her immune system has been completely messed up.

In imitation of Metropolitan Neophytos of Morphou, I urge those who have not been vaccinated to pray for those who have been vaccinated. And likewise, those who have been vaccinated to pray for those who haven’t. We will need to help each other in the weeks and months ahead.

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:

However, it is not impossible and may not have anything to do with the vaccine...but yes, we all need prayers and to pray.

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:

What persecution? Many people believe delusions as being real. I don't have a problem with WHAT you believe, it is how you represent it and how you go after people who may disagree with it. It is not really what you say, it is how you say it, and imply that people that can't see it are blind (or sinful) and only you (or others who agree with you) know the truth of the matter...

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prodromos said:

Other doctors have reported similar cases. Over here in Australia, the government has just recently run an ad campaign to educate people about shingles because oddly enough there has been a huge rise in cases over the last year.

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truefiction1 said:

The truth of the matter is going to come out soon enough. It's not like I haven't already been exposed to practically every potential argument or point of view already, and it's not like I don't know how many of those who have them live, what their habits are, what they center their lives on, what they mostly care about, etc. So, if I do in fact know the people and can see the place they're coming from then I know the people and can see the place they're coming from. You act like this ability doesn't exist in anyone, especially in me. You act as though discerning what's in someone's heart and mind is impossible through social media channels. But I believe that it is very possible. Often, a person will be making an argument from a personal perspective and they will state a thing that gives away their true inner motives, and disclose their current level of spiritual attainment. I usually refrain from alighting those motives for the sake of a person who would be injured to have such motives pointed out to them. But the motives are clear nonetheless. I'm not boasting, because such boasting would be of no usefulness to myself or anyone else, but I have even had to contend with demons that were attacking me through other people, even members of my own household and Church. On many occasions I've been acutely aware of the presence of those aerial entities and the influence that they were directly exerting on the people through whom the attacks were coming. People do see such things, and also see the passions at work in the people which provide for the demonic control of their thoughts and actions. Perhaps you deem me incapable of having this sort of sight. Fair enough. You likely don't even know what my path has been, nor know anything about my prayer life or about my ascetical practice, so how would you know what I'm capable of knowing about people, let alone about whole societies?

In sum, I understand what you're saying about me. I don't think you know to what extent I can know things about people and about the times. I've no hard feelings over this. It's perfectly understandable.

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prodromos said:

Other doctors have reported similar cases. Over here in Australia, the government has just recently run an ad campaign to educate people about shingles because oddly enough there has been a huge rise in cases over the last year.

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:

See, again you prove my point...and you don't know what my path has been even though you imply you do. Boasting, yes you do but in a sly way. If you do as you say then you would not be saying or implying things regarding me. You WOULD know but you don't...It's perfectly understandable.

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Justin-H.S. said:

My dad got shingles after being vaccinated as well. No prior medical history or in the family tree.

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truefiction1 said:

I don't recall implying knowing your path. Once, however, I couldn't help but notice notice how short you were with me when you deemed me to be evidently wrong about something in the distant past, and how altogether unwilling you were to listen to any explanation I desired to offer to clarify my statement, and how arrogantly or offensively you had come across. To be frank, your behavior was absolutely rude. But, again, I don't know a darned thing about you, so... just be aware how well I remember things that you do in fact write, and the impression that I received of you at that time. Perhaps we're not so different as we think. But regardless of any of these things, we must not go the way of the world, and you know darned well that we mustn't.

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:

I dont think shingles is genetic (runs in the family tree)?

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Paidiske said:

Shingles is caused by the chicken pox virus, Varicella zoster.

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Maybe you were wrong? If you were acting like the present, maybe I became tiresome of it?

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Antoni said:

I treated a once healthy 14 year old girl for shingles today. First time in my career I saw a young teenager with shingles. Guess what my first question was when I saw it? Guess what her answer was?

and she had the vaccine months ago. NOT normal for a 14 yo girl to have shingles unless her immune system has been completely messed up.

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