LDS Reformed Egyptian?

[mmksparbud]

General hypothesis is that this was taking place somewhere in Central America.

And you're failing to note that the passage in question was written according to the standards of Nephi's day.

Central America!! I'm from Central America--my whole family is. The indigenous tribes were already dark! Light skin came with the Spaniards. Tropical locations have dark skinned tribes. The American Indian were dark, some darker than others--even the Alaskan Indians are dark. And their darker skin did not keep the light skinned people from intermarrying with them---often, they were just plain raped. Dark skinned never kept men and women apart! Even though they were considered sub-human, good only for slavery, they still had sex with them---mostly against their will. Give it up, it's racist nonsense.

 

[Peter1000]

And what would be our SOURCES for understanding 600bc America?

One would be the BOM. Read it, and see if I am right?

 

[Peter1000]

So, God made only certain people black and ugly?? Only those that would have enticed those imaginary people of JS? Are you then saying that God made only certain tribes in the Americas black and ugly? Which ones? Indians are amongst the most noble looking of peoples.

View attachment 255684

Stop with the black and ugly, you are not helping the discussion.

 

[Peter1000]

I think the passage in question was written according to the standards of 1830 America; probably more prejudiced standards than many in the North held at that time.

And it was translated by rock-in-the-hat method and wound up in King James English, a much much earlier version of English than 1830 American English. Why? To make BOM seem more Holy?

No way Mormons are going to make the passage "not prejudiced". Give it up.

If you are calling JS prejudiced, you will have to call God prejudiced, because it was God that separated the 2 groups around 600bc.

 

[Anto9us]

No such 2 groups.

 

[mmksparbud]

Stop with the black and ugly, you are not helping the discussion.

How can I? It is what your prophet's statement boils down to.

If you are calling JS prejudiced, you will have to call God prejudiced, because it was God that separated the 2 groups around 600bc.

Except that God did no such thing!! This is all from the mind of JS--- not from God. It doesn't seem that God has a problem with color, as I said, Moses was married to a black woman. One of the first Christians was an Ethiopian eunuch.
There were no Arabs at this time--600 BC. The Egyptians were dark, and there were blacks that were Pharaohs. Joseph was married to an Egyptian woman--some say she was black, others say she was just a regular dark skinned Egyptian. Nobody really knows. When the Jews left Egypt there was a very large mixed multitude with them, some of whom had to be black.
This statement from JS is just another prove to me that he is not a prophet of God. His real prophets said this:

Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus

 

[Peter1000]

How can I? It is what your prophet's statement boils down to.



Except that God did no such thing!! This is all from the mind of JS--- not from God. It doesn't seem that God has a problem with color, as I said, Moses was married to a black woman. One of the first Christians was an Ethiopian eunuch.
There were no Arabs at this time--600 BC. The Egyptians were dark, and there were blacks that were Pharaohs. Joseph was married to an Egyptian woman--some say she was black, others say she was just a regular dark skinned Egyptian. Nobody really knows. When the Jews left Egypt there was a very large mixed multitude with them, some of whom had to be black.
This statement from JS is just another prove to me that he is not a prophet of God. His real prophets said this:

Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus

Again, you can quote me Greek, Barbarian, Scythian and all, but the Americas in 600bc presents a case in which God needed to separate 2 groups of people, and he chose to separate them by color. Good or bad, according to you, is not my concern, it is what God did.

Now you can say all day long God did no such thing, it was from the mind of JS. So if you think so, fine, let it go. I happen to believe that God did do it and that the BOM is a true testament of Jesus Christ and his dealings with people and their problems in the Americas.

 

[Peter1000]

No such 2 groups.

Says you. I say there were 2 groups. So now where do we go from here?

 

[BigDaddy4]

Says you. I say there were 2 groups. So now where do we go from here?

Provide evidence of said 2 groups actually existing.

 

[mmksparbud]

Again, you can quote me Greek, Barbarian, Scythian and all, but the Americas in 600bc presents a case in which God needed to separate 2 groups of people, and he chose to separate them by color. Good or bad, according to you, is not my concern, it is what God did.

Now you can say all day long God did no such thing, it was from the mind of JS. So if you think so, fine, let it go. I happen to believe that God did do it and that the BOM is a true testament of Jesus Christ and his dealings with people and their problems in the Americas.

I know that. But why is there no record of any such thing happening anywhere, not in North, Central or South America and that dark skin has existed from the very beginnings. God gave to Adam and Eve all the genetic information needed to pass along all the differences in us. If there was a separation of colors, it more than likely happened at the tower of Babel, when God confused the languages and separated the people into languages---he probably did so by color also---certainly makes more sense than this.
You are free to believe Daffy Duck is God---doesn't make it true and you can't expect everyone else to believe it also. You can present your truth, and I can present mine. We leave it to the Holy Spirit to do the convincing.

 

[Peter1000]

I know that. But why is there no record of any such thing happening anywhere, not in North, Central or South America and that dark skin has existed from the very beginnings. God gave to Adam and Eve all the genetic information needed to pass along all the differences in us. If there was a separation of colors, it more than likely happened at the tower of Babel, when God confused the languages and separated the people into languages---he probably did so by color also---certainly makes more sense than this.
You are free to believe Daffy Duck is God---doesn't make it true and you can't expect everyone else to believe it also. You can present your truth, and I can present mine. We leave it to the Holy Spirit to do the convincing.

Fine, I present, you believe or not. That is how it works. But say something of my belief is like believing that Daffy Duck is God, is not intelligent, nor is it Christ-like.

 

[mmksparbud]

Fine, I present, you believe or not. That is how it works. But say something of my belief is like believing that Daffy Duck is God, is not intelligent, nor is it Christ-like.

You are twisting my words again!!!

You are free to believe Daffy Duck is God---doesn't make it true and you can't expect everyone else to believe it also.

I wasn't saying anything about your believes being like believing in Daffy Duck!! I said you can believe that if you want, just don't expect everyone else to believe you. You guys really love to twist things around.

 

[drstevej]

Fine, I present, you believe or not. That is how it works. But say something of my belief is like believing that Daffy Duck is God, is not intelligent, nor is it Christ-like.

Actually Jesus often used sarcasm re the Pharisee's errant beliefs and practices (ex. Mt 23:15)

Can you point me to a Reformed Egyptian grammar?

 

[Peter1000]

You are twisting my words again!!!



I wasn't saying anything about your believes being like believing in Daffy Duck!! I said you can believe that if you want, just don't expect everyone else to believe you. You guys really love to twist things around.

I don't have to twist your words, you are quite eloquent and straight forward. And I have come to expect that you will not believe anything I say, even if it is word for word, straight from the bible.

For instance: We believe Jesus when he says:
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We even believe Paul when he says this:

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But, we also believe Jesus when he says this:

John 14:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

IOW, the members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe the entire bible, not just some verses that fit your belief system. We reconcile all verses to our belief system. It is the only church that can do that.

 

[Peter1000]

Actually Jesus often used sarcasm re the Pharisee's errant beliefs and practices (ex. Mt 23:15)

Can you point me to a Reformed Egyptian grammar?

Read what the BOM actually says about Reformed Egyptian:
Mormon 9:32-37
32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.

35 And these things are written that we may rid our garments of the blood of our brethren, who have dwindled in unbelief.

36 And behold, these things which we have desired concerning our brethren, yea, even their restoration to the knowledge of Christ, are according to the prayers of all the saints who have dwelt in the land.

37 And may the Lord Jesus Christ grant that their prayers may be answered according to their faith; and may God the Father remember the covenant which he hath made with the house of Israel; and may he bless them forever, through faith on the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[Peter1000]

Provide evidence of said 2 groups actually existing.

Both pictures are pre-Columbian, before the white man was supposed to be in Mesoamerica.
Dark skinned and light skinned men. 2 groups, 2 cultures.

The BOM does say that the white skinned Nephites, eventually fell to the darker skinned Lamanites and those that survived became slaves and sacrifices.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Both pictures are pre-Columbian, before the white man was supposed to be in Mesoamerica.
Dark skinned and light skinned men. 2 groups, 2 cultures.
View attachment 255879

View attachment 255880

The BOM does say that the white skinned Nephites, eventually fell to the darker skinned Lamanites and those that survived became slaves and sacrifices.

Are you suggesting these are depictions of the Nephites and Lamanites and are presenting them as evidence of their existance? Source? For all we know these could be your kids' sunday school drawings.

 

[Peter1000]

Are you suggesting these are depictions of the Nephites and Lamanites and are presenting them as evidence of their existance? Source? For all we know these could be your kids' sunday school drawings.

Like I say they are pictures of the existence of 2 groups as you asked for. The white skinned people by this time 600-900ad were enslaved by the Lamanites and were used as slaves and sacrifices.

But the important thing about these pictures are that they are pre-Columbus.
I have tried to bring this to you in a link, but they must not want us to do that.

So google: 'images of pre-columbian murals in Mesoamerica'.

Also google: 'San Bartolo murals' that show 2 colors of people.

All pre-Columbian, IOW before the white man.

 

[mmksparbud]

I don't have to twist your words, you are quite eloquent and straight forward. And I have come to expect that you will not believe anything I say, even if it is word for word, straight from the bible.

For instance: We believe Jesus when he says:
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We even believe Paul when he says this:

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But, we also believe Jesus when he says this:

John 14:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

IOW, the members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe the entire bible, not just some verses that fit your belief system. We reconcile all verses to our belief system. It is the only church that can do that.

Your last line said it all.---"We reconcile all verses to our belief system"---that is the problem. You believe everrything according to your believe system. We take the bible and let it tell us what to think!! You are so wrong when you say you believe what the bible says!! If the bible contradicts what JS said---YOU BELIEVE HIM, BOTTOM LINE. You can think you follow the bible all you want----you do not, you follow him. And unfortunately, too many will continue on that path until God says "I never knew you." Those are the saddest words anyone will ever hear. I pray daily for every Moromon to come to know the real, most powerful being in the universe who is also total love. He is waiting for you to see Him as He is. The ONE AND ONLY GOD OF THE UNIVERSE, WHO CREATED FROM NOTHING, who has a ONE AND ONLY SON, who always was and is and created everything through the Holy Spirit and with His Father for thery are one. Who was NEVER HUMAN!! He is not weak and ineffectual but is able in all things to do as He says. Who never had, nor needed a wife. But who became as one of us to elevate us to His adopted children. We never existed before being born---God lowered Himself to our level. He loved us that much. I hope you do finally, one day realize the full depth of His love and sacrifice for us.

 

[mmksparbud]

Like I say they are pictures of the existence of 2 groups as you asked for. The white skinned people by this time 600-900ad were enslaved by the Lamanites and were used as slaves and sacrifices.

But the important thing about these pictures are that they are pre-Columbus.
I have tried to bring this to you in a link, but they must not want us to do that.

So google: 'images of pre-columbian murals in Mesoamerica'.

Also google: 'San Bartolo murals' that show 2 colors of people.

All pre-Columbian, IOW before the white man.

It is well know that the Inca were expecting a white skinned man to come who they thought would be a God. That is why it was so easy for them to believe that the first Spaniards were that expected God---they quickly learned otherwise. They were expecting---looking forward--not looking backwards to any past whites. God prepared them for what was to be, they were not look back to their past but to their future.