LDS Reformed Egyptian?

[MariaJLM]

As a bit of a nerd about everything Egyptian myself this is a rather bizarre claim to me. There's the classical Egyptian language, the one we see in artwork ranging from the Old Kingdom all the way to the New Kingdom. This language eventually evolved into Coptic, which the Coptic Orthodox church still uses today. There's very few native speakers left, but it's preserved as a liturgical language.

In short, the Mormon claim is false just like so many other of their claims.

 

[He is the way]

As a bit of a nerd about everything Egyptian myself this is a rather bizarre claim to me. There's the classical Egyptian language, the one we see in artwork ranging from the Old Kingdom all the way to the New Kingdom. This language eventually evolved into Coptic, which the Coptic Orthodox church still uses today. There's very few native speakers left, but it's preserved as a liturgical language.

In short, the Mormon claim is false just like so many other of their claims.

Just saying something is false does not make it so, it just means you have an opinion about something.

 

[Peter1000]

As a bit of a nerd about everything Egyptian myself this is a rather bizarre claim to me. There's the classical Egyptian language, the one we see in artwork ranging from the Old Kingdom all the way to the New Kingdom. This language eventually evolved into Coptic, which the Coptic Orthodox church still uses today. There's very few native speakers left, but it's preserved as a liturgical language.

In short, the Mormon claim is false just like so many other of their claims.

So are you saying that because there is a classical Egyptian language, and art work ranging from OK to NK, and this language evolved into Coptic, and because the COO still uses it today mainly for liturgical language, therefore the Mormon claim is false. I'm not sure I follow your logic?

So, since you are a nerd about everything Egyptian, couldn't we say (in a certain way) that Coptic is a 'reformed Egyptian' that evolved from the classical Egyptian language?

And couldn't we say that if the COO decided to let go of the coptic and use everyday Egyptian, that the coptic language might be lost for lack of use?

 

[MariaJLM]

So are you saying that because there is a classical Egyptian language, and art work ranging from OK to NK, and this language evolved into Coptic, and because the COO still uses it today mainly for liturgical language, therefore the Mormon claim is false. I'm not sure I follow your logic?

So, since you are a nerd about everything Egyptian, couldn't we say (in a certain way) that Coptic is a 'reformed Egyptian' that evolved from the classical Egyptian language?

And couldn't we say that if the COO decided to let go of the coptic and use everyday Egyptian, that the coptic language might be lost for lack of use?

From what I understand the Mormon claim is about a language that is distinct from the Coptic language.

 

[dzheremi]

This is Coptic:

We can and do read it and understand it (it is the doxologies for various saints).

This is Joseph Smith's Mormon nonsense supposedly representing the "Reformed Egyptian" characters (or "caractors", as is written) found on the plates he claimed to have found and translated. There's nothing readable or resembling Coptic in any of it but by pure chance (or if you believe the Dan Vogel video, by its obvious resemblance to Latin letters and numbers), and it is very obviously not any form of Egyptian or anything.

And the Mormons have no other 'evidence' of the existence of this Reformed Egyptian nonsense except for the above example and similar things that are even more ridiculous like the "Egyptian Grammar" produced by some team related to Smith (I don't have the energy for this stuff anymore, but you can find it at the Joseph Smith Papers website), which shows definitively that they had no clue whatsoever what Egyptian even is.

And that's a wrap, folks!

 

[Peter1000]

There are a lot of what if's and maybe's... The Egyptians were Israel's enemy...
Hagar is the mother of Ishmael, a huge lineage of people groups who are enemies of Israel... Starting in the Book of Exodus, Egypt was Israel's enemy moving forward... Why would they want the language of their enemies to write their supposed Holy Book...

The Egyptians were not always enemies with Israel. In fact there are various times that Egypt was an ally of Israel against Syria and Babylon. It was in a time (around 600bc) that Lehi and his family traded with Egypt, learning their language to facilitate their trading posture. They also learned that for writing, the Egyptian was an easier writing method than Hebrew. Therefore, they chose the Egyptian method of writing rather than the Hebrew.

 

[Peter1000]

From what I understand the Mormon claim is about a language that is distinct from the Coptic language.

I can only tell you if you can answer this question:

About what years did the Coptic evolve into its own language from the classical Egyptian?

 

[mmksparbud]

OK, I listened for as much as I could before I could not listen to words like, I don't know for sure, or I think, or I don't know his mind, or he could have, or I can not be sure. Enough question marks that I am not convinced by his study or guess work.

For instance he said here is a character that looks like an H. The next character looks like a 4, but it is a 4 with open top, so it looks like an H without the left leg. Then he says see what JS did? See how he manipulates the characters? And then he says "is this how a real language behaves?

Well, the English language behaves just like that. H vs 4 with an open top, looks just like an H without the left leg of the H. Wow, how bout that. The English language behaves like that too.

Enough stupidity.

Either JS invented reformed Egyptian. OR in many cases the characters are similar, but different than ancient Egyptian. I choose to believe that a reformed Egyptian that is similar to ancient Egyptian is a better explanation than a 14 year old farm boy who would have to have the temperament, understanding, intelligence, time, and reason to invent a Reformed Egyptian language to fool people about a book that gives him major problems all his life and finally gets him murdered in the end.

"Enough stupidity."---yah---that's what I said about Reformed Egyptian. I did not expect you to see it. But for those who are interested.
​

 

[mmksparbud]

a different one

 

[Peter1000]

"Enough stupidity."---yah---that's what I said about Reformed Egyptian. I did not expect you to see it. But for those who are interested.
​

You and I know very little about reformed Egyptian. In Fact, the experts know very little about reformed Egyptian. So for someone to come by and say, this is how JS invented reformed Egyptian, I will listen, but only to the point that I know he is guessing about what he is saying. This is your man.

I did listen, but it finally became to hard to listen further. It started to sound stupid to me.

The BOM said that nobody will be able to read our language because we have changed the Egyptian so much as to be difficult to read.

This should not be surprising, since people with the same roots, often within a 1000 years cannot understand the different dialects that come from a root language, or writing. This certainly has had many examples in world history. Why so much trouble with reformed Egyptian?

 

[mmksparbud]

Why so much trouble with reformed Egyptian?

Because it is made up from the mind of a man that made up the story of an angel of light. If it was a real angel of light he saw than he was definitely deceived by Satan for no true angel would ever say that the word of God is corrupted or that the word of man is more accurate than the word of God.
2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

JS made up this language in an effort to try and make his whole BOM more real. He failed, except for those who are gullible.

 

[dzheremi]

There is no such thing as Reformed Egyptian. I don't even understand how the Mormons or anyone can consider to be a debatable matter.

They may have made it into a matter of faith for themselves (i.e., in the context of their religion), but for those of us who actually study language as a matter of science, and therefore have as much of a 'final say' on such matters as anyone can possibly have, the non-existence of 'Reformed Egyptian' is not something to revisit without the necessary evidence pointing to its existence, which neither Mormons nor anyone else has ever produced.

And in science, when you cannot produce something, you don't sit there saying "but someday we might, so treat our arguments now as though we already have". No. You either produce the evidence, or revise your claims so that they are in line with the strength of the evidence you do have. In the case of 'Reformed Egyptian', there is zero evidence, so the corresponding claims are treated accordingly.

You don't have evidence, therefore your claims aren't taken seriously. Either produce said evidence or quit whining about how nobody believes you. They don't believe you because you're obviously wrong and making stuff up. Duh.

No linguist resists or would not welcome the discovery of additional dialects of Egyptian. There simply is no such language as 'Reformed Egyptian'.

Sincerely,

An Actual Linguist

 

[Peter1000]

There is no such thing as Reformed Egyptian. I don't even understand how the Mormons or anyone can consider to be a debatable matter.

They may have made it into a matter of faith for themselves (i.e., in the context of their religion), but for those of us who actually study language as a matter of science, and therefore have as much of a 'final say' on such matters as anyone can possibly have, the non-existence of 'Reformed Egyptian' is not something to revisit without the necessary evidence pointing to its existence, which neither Mormons nor anyone else has ever produced.

And in science, when you cannot produce something, you don't sit there saying "but someday we might, so treat our arguments now as though we already have". No. You either produce the evidence, or revise your claims so that they are in line with the strength of the evidence you do have. In the case of 'Reformed Egyptian', there is zero evidence, so the corresponding claims are treated accordingly.

You don't have evidence, therefore your claims aren't taken seriously. Either produce said evidence or quit whining about how nobody believes you. They don't believe you because you're obviously wrong and making stuff up. Duh.

No linguist resists or would not welcome the discovery of additional dialects of Egyptian. There simply is no such language as 'Reformed Egyptian'.

Sincerely,

An Actual Linguist

Did the Coptic language evolve from the ancient classical Egyptian language?

 

[mmksparbud]

I did listen, but it finally became to hard to listen further. It started to sound stupid to me.

LOL! I know exactly how you felt! I felt like that pretty soon after starting the BOM---but I kept reading anyway. I did read the whole thing---you can't even get through a few minutes of what you call stupidity.
I had to get through several books of it. If you want us to listen to you stupidities, you can listen to ours!

 

[Peter1000]

LOL! I know exactly how you felt! I felt like that pretty soon after starting the BOM---but I kept reading anyway. I did read the whole thing---you can't even get through a few minutes of what you call stupidity.
I had to get through several books of it. If you want us to listen to you stupidities, you can listen to ours!

Your experience with the BOM is interesting.

Would you be willing to read a few pages of the BOM again and tell me 1 thing you read that was stupid to you?

This is a legitimate interest.

 

[Peter1000]

dzheremi,

Did the Coptic language evolve from the ancient classical Egyptian language?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Just saying something is false does not make it so, it just means you have an opinion about something.

In all sincerity, He is the way, Reformed Egyptian never existed.

Various well-documented writing systems and dialects springing from Ancient Egyptian have existed and do exist.

The Reformed Egyptian of Joseph Smith is not one of them. It simply is not. It has never existed.

 

[He is the way]

In all sincerity, He is the way, Reformed Egyptian never existed.

Various well-documented writing systems and dialects springing from Ancient Egyptian have existed and do exist.

The Reformed Egyptian of Joseph Smith is not one of them. It simply is not. It has never existed.

I believe the Book of Mormon is true, and the word of God. There are many witnesses to the golden plates.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I believe the Book of Mormon is true, and the word of God. There are many witnesses to the golden plates.

There may be many witnesses. But having witnesses to a thing does not make it objectively, theologically, spiritually true.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Witnesses do not change that the Reformed Egyptian of Joseph Smith is a language which has never existed, friend. One may witness a hoax, as well.