Reconciled to God while enemies !

[Bobber]

That is a LIE! We have already exposed it with very clear Scripture.
"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2
Speak truth or shut up!

It's a lie, deception and delusion of such a great magnitude (that Jesus didn't die for all) that it boggles my mind that men would have the gall to ever consider uttering it out of their mouth . We're talking about the very heart of God and his longing that no one perish the very reason Jesus came into this earth. It's stunning men could ever even entertain the notion that Jesus wasn't the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

 

[fhansen]

Promoting works salvation, conditioned on man, a rabbit trail

You keep repeating that because you don't understand the whole of the gospel, because you don't take into account and understand the whole of God’s Word.

Nothing man does can ever justify himself. Only God can make man just, can give us a new heart and a new spirit (Ez 36:26), can put His law in our minds and write it on our hearts as we become His people (Jer 31:33). This happens as we turn to Him in faith. And once thus justified man is obligated to remain and grow in this justice, which is man's purpose, as he remains in God, the source of all justice/righteousness. God is not in the business of making puppets, but in drawing and prompting His creation into becoming who we were created to be, who are increasingly aligned in will with His, perfect, will. With Him we work out our salvation. Apart from Him we have no salvation.

Man needs God as man needs air to breathe. That's what we're here to learn. If we stop breathing we die, and if we fail to remain in God we die, having no life worth living, no abundant, eternal life. The gospel is all about man uniting with God, 'apart from whom man can do nothing' (John 15:5), but 'with whom all things are possible' (Matt 19:26). And He will not force us to come, or to remain.

 

[Brightfame52]

More on Reconciliation explained !

As in Justification, there is a difference between Objective/Legal Reconciliation and Subjective/ Experiential Reconciliation.

These must be kept distinct in that there is a big difference in what the Lord Jesus Christ did for His Sheep when He died on the Cross and what shall take place in them because of it; For the Apostles Doctrine taught both of objective and subjective Reconciliation. Now to understand the difference, Paul is teaching objective Reconciliation / Justification in Two places we shall observe #1 in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Also 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This Reconciliation [Legal and Objective] began in the Eternal Counsels of the Eternal Covenant, when it was agreed upon between the Father and the Son, the Surety of the People of the Elect or Sheep, that instead of trespasses that the Sheep will commit being charged or imputed to them, that they would instead be charged to their Shepherd, the Son, hence they were reconciled by the mere fact of Non Imputation of Trespasses of which Paul teaches in 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So Non Imputation equals Reconciliation, this is Objectively / Legally ! This Legal act of God had nothing to do with the actions of the sinners themselves, but only with the Divine Purpose to not to impute the Sins of the Sheep unto them but instead unto Christ their Shepherd ! So Christ is said to be slain from the foundation of the World for the sins imputed Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Secondly, Objective Reconciliation was accomplished, finished, fulfilled in time by Christ's Death and that alone Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This Reconciliation also is not based upon anything the sinner did, but solely " By the Death of God's Son " ! So what Paul has taught is that Reconciliation/ Justification began with the Offended Justice of God being satisfied for those Christ died for, and not with the offenders themselves whom Christ died for ! They themselves while this accomplished Reconciliation has taken place, are yet being enemies !

 

[Bobber]

More on Reconciliation explained !

As in Justification, there is a difference between Objective/Legal Reconciliation and Subjective/ Experiential Reconciliation.

Sorry, I can agree with this statement but where you go with it is WRONG.

These must be kept distinct in that there is a big difference in what the Lord Jesus Christ did for His Sheep when He died on the Cross and what shall take place in them because of it;

And this is where you are wrong for you cut back on the true measure of just who God has legally reconciled unto himself. And who is that? The world....not just the lucky ones, or the especially blessed or what you consider to be the elect......but....THE WORLD.

"And to wit that God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto himself ....."2 Cor 5"19

Does that mean every single person on this planet will be saved? NO. Here's how it works and I can say it in your words,

Brightfame's words: "As in justification there is a difference between Objective/Legal Reconciliation and Subjective /Experiential Reconciliation. "

Sorry BF but your doctrine wants to diminish and do away with God's love and compassion to the world by even twisting the meaning of the word, WORLD to make it the sheep giving a false image of the character of God and reduce the true measure to whom God legally reconciled. So who did God reconcile? The world! Does that mean they'll all be saved? NO. THEY MUST DO what Paul said, they must do.....and that is BE YOU RECONCILED TO GOD. As far as God is concerned he's done his part...now they must do their part and that is believe, confess and receive. Rom 10:10

 

[Bobber]

This Reconciliation also is not based upon anything the sinner did, but solely " By the Death of God's Son " !

Yes and no and I'll use your own words. Not from the legal standpoint of reconciliation no they didn't do a thing. Christ died on the cross. From the experiential standpoint of reconciliation YES they did do something and what was that? They obeyed the instruction of Paul "Be you reconciled to God" That is something they did and it is something every single person on the planet can do as well. Legally the world is reconciled to God not just who you call the elect......the world is. Problem is not everyone in the world will choose to become reconciled to God.

 

[Doug Brents]

Its simple, He died for them that are reconciled to God, now is everyone whoever lived reconciled to God ?

1 John 2:2 says clearly that He died for "not only our sins, but the sins of the WHOLE WORLD". Which means He died for EVERYONE.
But not everyone is reconciled to Him, as you imply above. So the only conclusion we can come to that rightly fits the Word of God is that He made a way to be reconciled for everyone, but only those who obey Him (exhibit faith in Him) as seen in so many other passages will actually receive the reconciliation.

You taking this to mean that Christ only died for those who are actually reconciled is to cause Scripture to contradict itself, and it never does that.

 

[Brightfame52]

1 John 2:2 says clearly that He died for "not only our sins, but the sins of the WHOLE WORLD". Which means He died for EVERYONE.
But not everyone is reconciled to Him, as you imply above. So the only conclusion we can come to that rightly fits the Word of God is that He made a way to be reconciled for everyone, but only those who obey Him (exhibit faith in Him) as seen in so many other passages will actually receive the reconciliation.

You taking this to mean that Christ only died for those who are actually reconciled is to cause Scripture to contradict itself, and it never does that.

Again, everyone Christ died for is reconciled to God.

 

[Doug Brents]

Again, everyone Christ died for is reconciled to God.

If that were true, then EVERYONE would be going to Heaven, and NO ONE would be going to Hell. Hell wouldn't even be a concept in Scripture if what you say is true. Because it is undeniable that Christ died for EVERY human soul that has ever existed; you cannot read 1 John 2:2 and honestly dispute that.

 

[Brightfame52]

If that were true, then EVERYONE would be going to Heaven, and NO ONE would be going to Hell. Hell wouldn't even be a concept in Scripture if what you say is true. Because it is undeniable that Christ died for EVERY human soul that has ever existed; you cannot read 1 John 2:2 and honestly dispute that.

He died only for them that are reconciled and saved ,and 1 Jn 2:2 refers to the same

 

[Brightfame52]

More on Reconciliation explained ! cont

Now this legal and objective Reconciliation does presuppose an alienation of God to man because of their sins as here Isa 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Yet this alienation hath been removed God ward by the Propitiation sacrifice of Christ 1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Or to say by His Blood, consequently enabling God to receive them into His Favor, this Favor of Reconciliation is a Reality to God, accomplished solely by the Blood of Christ, even while the subjects themselves are not yet reconciled to Him, but they are being in a state of enmity and enemies by nature. The word reconciled is the greek word katallassō
and means:

to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)

b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

God can Look at unreconciled sinners and receive them into His Favor as He does because of what the Death of Christ did against all their iniquities legally before His Law and Justice ! It took them all away Jn 1:29 ! But however, those have a Promise unto them, They all shall be saved by His [Christ's Life] See Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now why is that ? Because they still need to be saved from being in themselves enemies to God, for God is reconciled to them, before they are reconciled to God, because their nature hates God and is at enmity with Him, so They shall be saved from that disposition ! 2

 

[Doug Brents]

He died only for them that are reconciled and saved ,and 1 Jn 2:2 refers to the same

There are some very huge issues with your doctrine. But here is the truth:
1 John 2:2 is very explicit that Jesus died not only for the Elect (those to whom John is writing), but also for everyone else in the whole world. That is indisputable given the clarity of the language used. And this is also reiterated in many other passages that have been posted previously.
The fact that not everyone will be saved is equally clear (Matt 7:21-23 and many other passages).
So it is perfectly clear that Christ died for every soul that ever existed, but not every soul will be saved, and this is indisputable.
Now, does that mean that Christ was a failure? That because there are some that He died for that will not be saved that He has failed in some way? No, because when you look at the last phrases of Matt 7:21-23, you see the conditional statement that those who will be saved (enter into the Kingdom of God) are those who DOES THE WILL OF THE FATHER. This is similarly stated in Heb 5:9, "He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him".
These facts are indisputable, except to anyone who does not honor Scripture as the authority.

 

[Brightfame52]

More on Reconciliation explained ! cont 3

They shall be saved by Christ's Life which means, because of the accomplishment of objective reconciliation, they shall be saved out of being enemies, into subjective reconciliation by the Life of Christ, which life is communicated to them by New Birth by the Spirit, thats why for all whom He died and objectively reconciled, by His Mediation, a Life Giving Spirit He became 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

As Risen Saviour and Head, He must communicate Life to His Body of which He is the Saviour of Eph 5:23

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

The Spirit is given to all for whom He died through Him, which is Paul's meaning here Titus 3:5-6

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Please notice that the renewing Work of the Spirit, that saved them, was poured out or shed forth on them Through Jesus Christ our Saviour, hence, they were saved by His Life !

So in essence both objective and subjective Reconciliation of the sinner are of God 2 Cor 5:18

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Objectively by the Death of Christ, and Subjectively by the communicated Life of Christ by the Spirit in New Birth ! Any not hearing and receiving this Gospel Witness of reconciliation are in darkness even now and are rejecting the Truth ! 2

 

[Brightfame52]

More on Reconciliation explained ! cont 4

Now scripture that teach Subjective Reconciliation by Christ's Death Col 1:21-22

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Now notice here how Paul is attributing Subjective Reconciliation out of being enemies or a state of enmity, to Christ's Death in Vs 22, because he understands that, what he called saved by His Life in Rom 5:10b is but the fruit of Christ's Death, whereby they were reconciled objectively, even while being enemies in their minds and doing hostile works, but because of the communication of His Life, Christ's Death is said to even reconcile them Subjectively out of being alienated and enemies, so again Col 1:22-23 teaches Subjective Reconciliation !

 

[Brightfame52]

More on Reconciliation explained ! cont 5


1 Pet 3:18 teaches Subjective Reconciliation by Christ's death !

1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The phrase here " That He might bring us to God" denotes Subjective Reconciliation, for His suffering and being put to death in the flesh, His dying on the Cross, was for the Purpose of bringing the Elect of God to God, and He did accomplish that. This bringing to God means to draw near, it means to render one acceptable to God !

This denotes that the enmity they had has been dealt with by the death of Christ as well and now they come into communion and fellowship with God !

Now this vital Truth of Reconciliation is important because when properly understood as it is taught in scripture, there is no room for the false teaching of Jesus Christ having died for everyone without exception, simply because, everyone without exception shall not be saved by His Life, as it is promised to all that were reconciled by His Death !

Jesus tells us that there are many who shall not see life Jn 3:36- This statement cannot apply to any for whom Christ died, and thereby reconciled them to God by His Death.

Also those who falsely teach that no one was actually reconciled to God objectively solely by the Death of His Son, but only they are given a basis for Reconciliation to God, if they believe, those are teaching lies and a false Gospel, for scripture is plain that all for whom Christ died were objectively Reconciled , and that the same shall be subjectively reconciled in time by a communication of Christ's Life to them by the Spirit of God ! 3

 

[Brightfame52]

More on Subjective Reconciliation !

When the Apostles, having been directed by the Spirit of God and His Divine Providence, did send forth the Gospel Exhortation or Imperative in Christ's stead 2 Cor 5:20

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Understand that it was not an invitation for everyone in the world without exception, neither was it to men and women dead in trespasses and sins or in a lost state, whom they were attempting them to cooperate with God, But it was an exhortation to them that had been given Faith, to believe, to embrace and receive experientially their Atonement or reconciliation Rom 5:11

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The word atonement here is the greek word katallagē which is also translated reconciliation in 2 Cor 5:18-19


18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Also the imperative ' Be ye reconciled" in Vs 20 is aorist imperative passive, which means this exhortation was the means by which God reconciled them subjectively to Himself. Remember what Paul said of his mission to the gentiles Acts 28:18

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Notice that words to turn them Its the word epistrephō which means:


transitively

a) to turn to

1) to the worship of the true God

b) to cause to return, to bring back

And that is what the imperative " be ye reconciled to God" did, it cause a return to God, it brought them back !

Also finally Rom 5:11 Please notice in this verse by whom they received the reconciliation, it was not by their own freewill, but it was by or through Jesus Christ !

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Christ was responsible for them receiving it experientially by Faith ! Thats because He is a Total Saviour ! 3

 

[zoidar]

More on Subjective Reconciliation !

When the Apostles, having been directed by the Spirit of God and His Divine Providence, did send forth the Gospel Exhortation or Imperative in Christ's stead 2 Cor 5:20

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Understand that it was not an invitation for everyone in the world without exception, neither was it to men and women dead in trespasses and sins or in a lost state, whom they were attempting them to cooperate with God, But it was an exhortation to them that had been given Faith, to believe, to embrace and receive experientially their Atonement or reconciliation Rom 5:11

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The word atonement here is the greek word katallagē which is also translated reconciliation in 2 Cor 5:18-19


18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Also the imperative ' Be ye reconciled" in Vs 20 is aorist imperative passive, which means this exhortation was the means by which God reconciled them subjectively to Himself. Remember what Paul said of his mission to the gentiles Acts 28:18

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Notice that words to turn them Its the word epistrephō which means:


transitively

a) to turn to

1) to the worship of the true God

b) to cause to return, to bring back

And that is what the imperative " be ye reconciled to God" did, it cause a return to God, it brought them back !

Also finally Rom 5:11 Please notice in this verse by whom they received the reconciliation, it was not by their own freewill, but it was by or through Jesus Christ !

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Christ was responsible for them receiving it experientially by Faith ! Thats because He is a Total Saviour ! 3

The Bible never describes reconcilation as objective or subjective. Sounds to me like a made up idea.

 

[zoidar]

More on Subjective Reconciliation !

When the Apostles, having been directed by the Spirit of God and His Divine Providence, did send forth the Gospel Exhortation or Imperative in Christ's stead 2 Cor 5:20

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Understand that it was not an invitation for everyone in the world without exception, neither was it to men and women dead in trespasses and sins or in a lost state, whom they were attempting them to cooperate with God, But it was an exhortation to them that had been given Faith, to believe, to embrace and receive experientially their Atonement or reconciliation Rom 5:11

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The word atonement here is the greek word katallagē which is also translated reconciliation in 2 Cor 5:18-19


18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Also the imperative ' Be ye reconciled" in Vs 20 is aorist imperative passive, which means this exhortation was the means by which God reconciled them subjectively to Himself. Remember what Paul said of his mission to the gentiles Acts 28:18

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Notice that words to turn them Its the word epistrephō which means:


transitively

a) to turn to

1) to the worship of the true God

b) to cause to return, to bring back

And that is what the imperative " be ye reconciled to God" did, it cause a return to God, it brought them back !

Also finally Rom 5:11 Please notice in this verse by whom they received the reconciliation, it was not by their own freewill, but it was by or through Jesus Christ !

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Christ was responsible for them receiving it experientially by Faith ! Thats because He is a Total Saviour ! 3

The Bible never describes reconcilation as objective or subjective. It only says reconciliation.

You can say there has been atonement for everyone, which is true. But you can't say there has been reconcilation for everyone, since reconcilation is pointing to a right relationship with God, which is only possible through faith. God bless!

It's like if a neighbor steals your car. You forgive your neighbor, but you can hardly say there has been any reconcilation between you two, until he apologizes and is willing to give you the car back. However, you have done your part, forgiving him, which could be compared to the atonement.

 

[Brightfame52]

Reconciliation is the Sole Work of God !


2 Cor 5:18-19

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Listen to Paul's Gospel, His Word of Reconciliation here in our text. First lets look at Paul asserting in Vs 18, for this is a Key Gospel Truth

#1 All things are of God ! We recall when Jesus told His disciples after they having inquired of Him, who then shall be saved What was Jesus response ? Matt 19:25-26

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

So hence, all things pertaining to Salvation, Reconciliation are of God !

Yes, this Reconciliation is one of those all things possible with God. Ones being Reconciled to God is of God Himself ! And how ? By Jesus Christ, that is by His Death, His Blood for they mean the exact same thing !

Turn to Rom 5:10 where the same word for reconciled is used as in 2 Cor 5:18 !

Reconciliation consisteth in Vs 19 God not imputing [ for the ones Christ died for] their guilt of Trespasses unto them, which in itself is pardon and Justification ! Now why is that also Justification ? Because God is not charging us with sin that we deserve, which means God Justifieth us Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

That is we are acquitted by this act of Non Imputation which is Justification :

Non Imputation of sin is another way of God saying He will not lay any charges against us, which constitutes forgiveness and Justification by God before His Divine Tribunal in Heaven, even though our enemies, and the devil and our own conscience can lay charges against us ! 3

 

[Brightfame52]

The Bible never describes reconcilation as objective or subjective. Sounds to me like a made up idea.

Maybe that terminology isnt used, however the Truth of it is. Thats the Main thing, that Truth of God is conveyed. Subjective reconciliation is conversion to God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Those Reconciled have Imputed Righteousness !


Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now this Reconciliation solely by Christ's Death or Blood is by Atonement, in other words Reconciliation is by Atonement through Christ's Blood.

Dan 9:24

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The word Reconciliation here is the hebrew word kaphar d means:


to cover, purge [Heb 1:3], make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch

to cover over, pacify, propitiate

2) to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for

So Paul writes after the Psalmist Rom 4:7

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. See Ps 32:1

Now notice whats next in Dan 9:24 following Reconciliation of Iniquity, its to bring in Everlasting Righteousness !

This is the Righteousness of God imputed to all for whom Christ was made sin for 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is that Everlasting Righteousness that Christ hath wrought out and Established for all them He was made a sin offering for, an Atonement for !

Ps 119:142

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Law Here is likely the Gospel !

For that Righteousness of God that was established by Making Reconciliation of Iniquity, Atonement, the Covering of Sin, that Righteousness is Revealed to all the Beneficiaries by the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So the Reconciled World of 2 Cor 5:19 and those Reconciled to God by the Death of His Son even while they are Enemies, have all been covered by and clothed with that Everlasting Righteousness by Imputation, and that before they know about it or believe into it ! 3