Reconciled to God while enemies !

[Brightfame52]

I understand! Not much to say, more than you don't believe we are saved by faith, since you say we are saved prior to faith, even the Bible is abundantly clear salvation is by faith.

Ive said plenty, but you dont pay attention to it.

 

[Doug Brents]

Ive said plenty, but you dont pay attention to it.

You have said plenty that does not agree with Scripture, and you have proven that you don't really care what Scripture says unless you can twist it to fit with your preconceptions and Calvin's false doctrine. So you are correct that we do not pay attention to the falsehoods you post.

 

[zoidar]

Ive said plenty, but you dont pay attention to it.

I meant "I" don't have much to say about it.

 

[Brightfame52]

You have said plenty that does not agree with Scripture, and you have proven that you don't really care what Scripture says unless you can twist it to fit with your preconceptions and Calvin's false doctrine. So you are correct that we do not pay attention to the falsehoods you post.

I have testified to scripture, those for whom Christ died, by His Death, they were reconciled to God, even while they were unbelieving enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Brightfame52]

I meant "I" don't have not much to say about it.

Okay

 

[Doug Brents]

I have testified to scripture, those for whom Christ died, by His Death, they were reconciled to God, even while they were unbelieving enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

"Those for whom Christ died" includes EVERY SOUL THAT HAS EVER, OR WILL EVER, LIVED. There is not a single soul for which He did not die (1 John 2:2). And we have already agreed that not every person will be saved. So while the saved and the unsaved were all enemies, Christ died for all of us. Yet only those who believe in Him (John 3:16) and obey Him (Heb 5:9) will receive the benefit of being reconciled to Him. You can continue to debate all day long, but it is God with whom you disagree, and God whom you are defying.

 

[Brightfame52]

"Those for whom Christ died" includes EVERY SOUL THAT HAS EVER, OR WILL EVER, LIVED. There is not a single soul for which He did not die (1 John 2:2). And we have already agreed that not every person will be saved. So while the saved and the unsaved were all enemies, Christ died for all of us. Yet only those who believe in Him (John 3:16) and obey Him (Heb 5:9) will receive the benefit of being reconciled to Him. You can continue to debate all day long, but it is God with whom you disagree, and God whom you are defying.

Its simple, He died for them that are reconciled to God, now is everyone whoever lived reconciled to God ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Most never are.

Like stated, if Christ died for a person, they are reconciled to God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Preaching Reconciliation ! cont

Something to know about legal and objective reconciliation of the Elect, and that is this, that all the Elect while being enemies to Christ and God, are nevertheless legally still reconciled, received into God's Favor up until they are born again by the Spirit, or saved by Christ's Life Rom 5:10b. This means, but I do not teach it from scripture, but it does mean if an elect person were to die before new birth, that they would still be saved from the penalty of their sins, by the blood of Christ, that they would die objectively and legally reconciled into God's Favor by Christ's Death alone ! All of the sin and enmity the Elect by Nature have against God, while they are yet unconverted , and alienated from the life of God, and yes unbelievers, all that has been satisfied for by the blood of Christ ! In fact legal and objective reconciliation by Christ's Death Alone is that Propitiation John writes of in 1 Jn 2:2 !

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Propitiation:

akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted."

The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 is a world that has all of its sins remitted or covered. Like David said about the blessed Man Ps 32:1

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven or remitted, whose sin is covered.

Thats the blessing of Legal Reconciliation/ Propitiation !

The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 that Christ is the propitiation in behalf of ,is a Justified World, because God has been propitiated for it, in the same manner that God had been propitiated towards the Publican in the story of Christ Lk 18:13-14

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

That word merciful is the greek word hilaskomai and means:


to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self

a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased

b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful

2) to expiate, make propitiation for

The noun form of the same word is found in 1 Jn 2:2

hilasmos:

an appeasing, propitiating

2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Now Jesus enlightens here, that a sinner for whom God is propitiated for is a Justified person before God:

"I tell you, this man went down to his house justified "

The word Justified is the greek word:dikaioō:


to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

So those who appeal ignorantly to 1 Jn 2:2 to prove that Christ died for the Whole World without exception, you are teaching falsely universalism, and that the whole World without exception has been declared Righteous before God ! 2

 

[Brightfame52]

Hebrews 10:29

Think how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God; who has treated as something common the blood of the covenant which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of God’s grace!
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

So whats your point ? Explain the verse or why post it ?

 

[zoidar]

The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 that Christ is the propitiation in behalf of ,is a Justified World, because God has been propitiated for it, in the same manner that God had been propitiated towards the Publican in the story of Christ Lk 18:13-14

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

That word merciful is the greek word hilaskomai and means:


to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self

a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased

b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful

2) to expiate, make propitiation for

The noun form of the same word is found in 1 Jn 2:2

hilasmos:

an appeasing, propitiating

2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Now Jesus enlightens here, that a sinner for whom God is propitiated for is a Justified person before God:

"I tell you, this man went down to his house justified "

The word Justified is the greek word:dikaioō:


to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

So those who appeal ignorantly to 1 Jn 2:2 to prove that Christ died for the Whole World without exception, you are teaching falsely universalism, and that the whole World without exception has been declared Righteous before God ! 2

To me 1 John 2:2 says Jesus made propitiation/atonement for the whole world, that whoever believes will be reconciled to God. So it's not an universal reconciliation we are talking about. At least not from my perspective. However there is a universal sacrifice for all sin in the whole world.

Reconciliation of a person and propitiation for sin are two different things. Propitiation is about what the sacrifice does to sin generally (atoning for sins) and reconcilation is what the sacrifice has done through the propitiation to a believer.

 

[fhansen]

We have to understand God's purpose and work in salvation. God did not suddenly decide to save a certain number of people despite themselves and their wills. Yes, man is lost; he wouldn’t even know where to look for God, let alone find Him. God must come to us. He must call and draw and move us towards Himself. But He never decides for us at the end of the day. Because He wants our wills involved to the greatest extent possible, like a good parent who wants their children to be morally responsible and so appeals to and disciplines them towards that end. Jesus, by everything He said and did-by everything that He is- shows us a God truly worth putting our faith, hope, and love in. And He gives us the grace to first of all know and then to believe in that God. And that’s the first step in man attaining the purpose he was created for.

God could’ve simply thrown Adam into hell for his disobedience, or simply prevented him from sinning to begin with, creating Adam as a being unable to sin or changing him such that he wouldn’t sin from the get-go, on the spot. Instead, God gave man the freedom to sin, to oppose His own will, which implies the freedom to abuse that gift of free will. But God, foreknowing man’s sin and planning for it from the beginning, didn’t abandon man when he sinned but worked with him, wanting to educate and patiently form him over time by first of all exiling him into a world where good and evil are literally known and where death and its threat of non-existence looms. Here the Master is gone away-and in his new-found “freedom” man is lost whether he knows it or not-or until he knows it- so that he may be all the more willing to turn back to God from his hopeless state of depravity, when He calls, when Jesus comes in the "fullness of time".

Our freedom to reject God-to choose evil over good-remains with us throughout our lives. Man was made for union with God and will remain restless until he rests totally in Him, only completely possible in the next life. Until then we aren’t even fully the beings we were created to be. But, again, to the extent that we believe in, hope in, and, most importantly, love God, our justice, our righteousness, is attained. That's why Jesus came, to reunite man with God in a stronger relationship than man began in, in Eden, now bonded by a love that's been cultivated, tried, and grown.

 

[Brightfame52]

To me 1 John 2:2 says Jesus made propitiation/atonement for the whole world, that whoever believes will be reconciled to God. So it's not an universal reconciliation we are talking about. At least not from my perspective. However there is a universal sacrifice for all sin in the whole world.

Reconciliation of a person and propitiation for sin are two different things. Propitiation is about what the sacrifice does to sin generally (atoning for sins) and reconcilation is what the sacrifice has done through the propitiation to a believer.

Obviously I believe you are wrong.

 

[Brightfame52]

Reconciliation = Justification !

Many who are in the dark on the blessed effects of the death of Christ, by not realizing, and rejecting the Truth that reconciliation to God by the Death of His Son Rom 5:10 is the same exact thing "as now being Justified by His Blood" Rom 5:9 !

 

[zoidar]

Reconciliation = Justification !

Many who are in the dark on the blessed effects of the death of Christ, by not realizing, and rejecting the Truth that reconciliation to God by the Death of His Son Rom 5:10 is the same exact thing "as now being Justified by His Blood" Rom 5:9 !

I agree justification and reconciliation is basically the same thing. You however believe justification happens before faith and I believe justification happens after (or similtaneously) as faith.

 

[fhansen]

Reconciliation = Justification !

Many who are in the dark on the blessed effects of the death of Christ, by not realizing, and rejecting the Truth that reconciliation to God by the Death of His Son Rom 5:10 is the same exact thing "as now being Justified by His Blood" Rom 5:9

Again, with the Christian gospel justification is not merely declared; righteousness is actually given. And necessary. This directive, for example, has not changed one iota with the new covenant:
"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

The NC empowers us to accomplish this, finally, the right way, God's way, with Him. That's why it's so critical to remain in Him. Our very life depends on that union. And to the extent that we're embroiled in sin/the flesh we've shown that we've already left Him. The Law can never accomplish what God, alone, can and does. In his letter, James was already addressing the foolish idea that faith and personal righteousness could somehow be separated-and that such righteousness was no longer necessary under the new covenant. Righteousness flows from-and can be defined by-the term "love": agape. Right acts flow naturally from that love, which is why, for example, it can be said that love fulfills the law, and why Paul can say in Gal 5:6,
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love."

And why the church can sum it up simply, yet wisely and profoundly in this teaching,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

That love is the inevitable consequence of fellowship/union with or nearness to God, the union that Adam dismissed.

 

[Brightfame52]

More Truth on 2 Cor 5:19

Many false teachers, those who teach that Christ died for all without exception, but only some of them shall be saved and those who teach that Christ died for all and all without exception shall be saved with none lost, they both teach that the World here in 2 Cor 5:19 means all mankind without exception ! However the rest of the words in the verse 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Proves them to be liars, and that world here is restricted first by the words " theirs" and "them" which refer to God's Chosen or Called as Per 1 Cor 1:2

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

1 Cor 1:24

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Cor 1:27-28

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

also the fact that these in 2 Cor 5:19 World had not their sins laid to their charge or they were not by God counted against them, reason being they were charged against Christ, so that He would die for them and satisfy their sin debt against God's Law and Justice, it was paid in full, for non imputation of sin is an key component of the Reconciliation of the World in 2 Cor 5:19, and all men without exception cannot be said not to have their sins counting against them since they are said to be condemned already Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And some men are said to be abiding under God's legal and Judicial Wrath Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The word abideth is a present indicative active, meaning they are in a state of God's Wrath or Vengeance !

However this cannot be True of any of that World of 2 Cor 5:19 because they are in a state of favor with God !

Also notice about those in Jn 3:36 who are under God's Wrath, there is a promise annexed to them, which is that they shall not see Life !

But those Reconciled to God by Christ's Death while they are enemies and unbelievers, being reconciled, the promise to them is that they shall be saved by Christ's Life Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This destroys arminianism as well as universalism with one stroke of the pen ! 2

 

[Brightfame52]

I agree justification and reconciliation is basically the same thing. You however believe justification happens before faith and I believe justification happens after (or similtaneously) as faith.

Thats why we differ, you are in error, grave error, and Im showing why.

 

[Brightfame52]

Again, with the Christian gospel justification is not merely declared; righteousness is actually given. And necessary. This directive, for example, has not changed one iota with the new covenant:
"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

The NC empowers us to accomplish this, finally, the right way, God's way, with Him. That's why it's so critical to remain in Him. Our very life depends on that union. And to the extent that we're embroiled in sin/the flesh we've shown that we've already left Him. The Law can never accomplish what God, alone, can and does. In his letter, James was already addressing the foolish idea that faith and personal righteousness could somehow be separated-and that such righteousness was no longer necessary under the new covenant. Righteousness flows from-and can be defined by-the term "love": agape. Right acts flow naturally from that love, which is why, for example, it can be said that love fulfills the law, and why Paul can say in Gal 5:6,
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love."

And why the church can sum it up simply, yet wisely and profoundly in this teaching,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

That love is the inevitable consequence of fellowship/union with or nearness to God, the union that Adam dismissed.

Promoting works salvation, conditioned on man, a rabbit trail

 

[Bobber]

@Bobber

Being reconciled to God isnt the dead lost sinners responsibility, its Gods Gracious Work, and Christ accomplished the Work, and He applies the Work.

Nope, nope, nope. 2 Cor 5:20 states for us TO BE reconciled to God. That's an instruction for us to do something. If all this was automatic there would be no request for us to carry out an action.

Those who are reconciled to God by His Death are also saved by His Life. Read the verse Rom 5:10

Yes but that's a two part thing above. They went through the process were they obeyed the request "Be you reconciled to God" and they did that. They were able to do that and do their part in obeying the reconciling request because Jesus death it made the way for them to reach out by faith and do that.

Jesus dying though was his work....and now we're saved or become transformed on a daily basis because of his life. But men still had to do their part and do what Paul requested that THEY DO not God. They had obey the instruction , Be You Reconciled To God. You have to change the English language to make that mean its not something THEY were told to do.

The reconciled sinner must be saved,

No he does not have to be saved before he obeys the request to be reconciled to God. None of that would make sense! You would have it he's saved and now must be reconciled to God. You say that because of your Calvinism. None of that makes sense. If Paul says be you reconciled to God one is not saved until they do this.

meaning the Spiritual Benefits of Christs Death must be applied to the already legally reconciled. he must be made to acquire and enjoy the salvation that God has willed for him by Christ. He must be converted in heart and life from a dead, unbelieving, and disobedient sinner to a living, believing, and obedient child of God. The power of God that works this radical change in the sinner is grace.

Now look at what you've just done. You're rolling out a whole discourse it appears to get around a request Paul made, "BE YOU RECONCIED TO GOD" You don't want to acknowledge it states this is something MAN, yes MAN is required to do. In your last line above you try to bring on through your reasoning by injecting a very precious word the word GRACE and in the way you say it leaves the impression who would question that salvation isn't a thing of God's goodness.

Well it is a thing of God's goodness GRACE, but because God offers salvation by grace does not mean men aren't required to do something. THEY ARE REQUIRED to be you reconciled to God and that's still a request for man to do something BEFORE THEY'RE SAVED.

None of this is the sinners responsibility, but Christs the Saviour.

When the sinner is told to BE YOU reconciled to God it IS the sinners responsibility. Even look at the fulness of what Paul stated,

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20

He not only told THEM to be reconciled to God he beseeched them to do this! In other words come on guys this is something you need to do and please do it! The word beseeching has a lot of emotion and passion connected to it. And he said I'm here in Christ's place telling you this is something YOU NEED TO DO. If he God did it for the sinner there certainly would be no need for the heart longing request.