RC and EO: question for you from book of Daniel

[hraedisc]

You depend so much on "Church Fathers." How can you depend upon them when, clearly, the book of Daniel could NOT have been fully understood by them?

Daniel 12
: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5: Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6: And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7: And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8: And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9: And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10: Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Daniel 7-8 point a finger where you don't like.

 

[Oblio]

This "denomination-specific" thread is about the interpretation of Daniel for EO and RC

That's strange, I didn't realize that you had converted

 

[Gwenyfur]

Thread closed for staff review

Too many broken rules

 

[Gwenyfur]

This thread has been re-opened.

NO flaming will be toleraterated.

Only RC and EO and the OP may reply to this thread.

Any further rule breaking and the thread will be permanently closed.

 

[xristos.anesti]

Christ is risen!

It is my humble opinion that OP is presenting point based on a logical fallacy - in a way that he is accusing ECF of not understanding what the prophet Daniel wanted to say, using the understanding of this book by certain Millennialism oriented groups as a basis of this attack.

Thus the point of proof becomes a moot point as the basis of proof is not valid.

So, did ECF understand the book of Daniel the way modern Millennialists (such as Seventh Day Adventist) understand? No, obviously not – for if ECF did, we (RC and EO and most likely Oriental Orthodox and Anglicans many other Protestants) would have been followers of Millennialism, as it happens, this view was declared heterodox by the Second Ecumenical Council and is continued to be deemed as such.

Now, the OP might argue that Daniel has nothing to do with Millennialism, but this just is not so – for all of the Seventh Day Adventist Eschatology is based on the connection – parallels between Daniel and Revelation.

We trust ECF regardless of their inability to read Daniel the way the OP thinks this book should be read; for, to us, their inability to read it that way speaks of their orthodoxy and purity of faith.

 

[hraedisc]

...accusing ECF of not understanding what the prophet Daniel wanted to say....

Who did ECF say the horns in Dan. 7 were?

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Who did ECF say the horns in Dan. 7 were?

Read for yourself. You may be surprised. Remember, the ECFs were given the Faith at the very feet of the Apostles. Any questions they had were answered directly by Sts Peter, Paul, Andrew, Mark, etc. In other words, they have it strait from the Apostles mouths.

I find it incredibly arrogant that some people 2000 years later think they know more than those who received the Truth directly from the Apostles who were sent to deliver it directly by Jesus Christ. Just beyond belief.

 

[hraedisc]

Read for yourself.

OK.

You may be surprised.

Someone might be surprised - but it isn't me.

St. Irenaeus puts the ten horns of Daniel into the future - at the dissolution of the Roman Empire.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202)
Adversus haereses (inter A.D. 180/199)
Book V, Chapter 26

John and Daniel have predicted the dissolution and desolation of the Roman Empire, which shall precede the end of the world and the eternal Kingdom of Christ. The Gnostics are refuted, those tools of Satan, who invent another Father different from the Creator.

1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, ...
Source: http://newadvent.org/fathers/0103526.htm
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Book V, Chapter 30

Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.

2. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. ...
3. It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas (EUAN QAS) contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it. Then also Lateinos (LATEINOS) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: ...
Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103530.htm
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[hraedisc]

I find it incredibly arrogant that some people 2000 years later think they know more than those ...

Hippolytus (3rd Century)
TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST.

25. Then he says: "A fourth beast, dreadful and terrible; it had iron teeth and claws of brass." And who are these but the Romans? which (kingdom) is meant by the iron--the kingdom which is now established; for the legs of that (image) were of iron. And after this, what remains, beloved, but the toes of the feet of the image, in which part is iron and part clay, mixed together?

And mystically by the toes of the feet he meant the kings who are to arise from among them; as Daniel also says (in the words), "I considered the beast, and lo there were ten horns behind it, among which shall rise another (horn), an offshoot, and shall pluck up by the roots the three (that were) before it."

And under this was signified none other than Antichrist, who is also himself to raise the kingdom of the Jews. He says that three horns are plucked up by the root by him, viz., the three kings of Egypt, and Libya, and Ethiopia, whom he cuts off in the array of battle. And he, after gaining terrible power over all, being nevertheless a tyrant, shall stir up tribulation and persecution against men, exalting himself against them. For Daniel says: "I considered the horn, and behold that horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them, till the beast was slain and perished, and its body was given to the burning of fire."
26. ...
27. As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey.
28. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander's time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ.

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm
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Oops!
I believe what these ECF say! Do you?

 

[hraedisc]

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-386) Doctor of the Church
Catechetical Lectures
LECTURE XV.
ON THE CLAUSE, AND SHALL COME IN GLORY TO JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD; OF WHOSE KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END, DANIEL vii. 9--14.

12. But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled, and the end of the world is now drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time; and after these an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magical craft shall seize upon the Roman power; and of the kings who reigned before him, three he shall humble, and the remaining seven he shall keep in subjection to himself. At first indeed he will put on a show of mildness (as though he were a learned and discreet person), and of soberness and benevolence: and by the lying [108] signs and wonders of his magical deceit a having beguiled the Jews, as though he were the expected Christ, he shall afterwards be characterized by all kinds of crimes of inhumanity and lawlessness, so as to outdo all unrighteous and ungodly men who have gone before him displaying against all men, but especially against us Christians, a spirit murderous and most cruel, merciless and crafty. And after perpetrating such things for three years and six months only, he shall be destroyed by the glorious second advent from heaven of the only-begotten Son of God, our Lord and Saviour Jesus, the true Christ, who shall slay Antichrist with the breath of His mouth, and shall deliver him over to the fire of hell.
Source: http://newadvent.org/fathers/310115.htm





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[hraedisc]

St. Jerome (c. 340-420) Doctor of the Church
Commentary on Daniel, Chapter 7, Verse 8:

"... We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, ..."
Source: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm
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[hraedisc]

Going a little earlier, we still see that they believed it was future, not past.

St. Justin Martyr (c. 100-165)
DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO
CHAPTER XXXII -- TRYPHO OBJECTING THAT CHRIST IS DESCRIBED AS GLORIOUS BY DANIEL, JUSTIN DISTINGUISHES TWO ADVENTS.

... and he whom Daniel foretells would have dominion for a time, and times, and an half, is even already at the door, about to speak blasphemous and daring things against the Most High. ...
Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0128.htm


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Tertullian - not specifically mentioning Daniel, but nonetheless referring to the future - ten kingdoms and then antichrist:

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century)

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."

Source: http://newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm
CHAP. XXXII.

There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im (43) pending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire. We have no desire, then, to be overtaken by these dire events; and in praying that their coming may be delayed, we are lending our aid to Rome's duration.

Source: http://newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm
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[Oblio]

I hope you are not equivocating pagan Rome with the Church in Rome.

 

[hraedisc]

Not before 3rd century.

St. Cyprian of Carthage (3rd Century)
TREATISE XI.
EXHORTATION TO MARTYRDOM, ADDRESSED TO FORTUNATUS.

PREFACE.
1. You have desired, beloved Fortunatus that, l since the burden of persecutions and afflictions is lying heavy upon us, and in the ending and completion of the world the hateful time of Antichrist is already beginning to draw near, I would collect from the sacred Scriptures some exhortations for preparing and strengthening the minds of the brethren, whereby I might animate the soldiers of Christ for the heavenly and spiritual contest.

Source: http://newadvent.org/fathers/0507.htm






Lactantius Firminianous (4th Century)
Divine Institutions (Divinae Institutiones)
Book VII, Chapter 25, OF THE LAST TIMES, AND OF THE CITY OF ROME:

These are the things which are spoken of by the prophets as about to happen hereafter: ... The subject itself declares that the fall and ruin of the world will shortly take place; except that while the city of Rome remains it appears that nothing of this kind is to be feared. But when that capital of the world shall have fallen, and shall have begun to be a street, which the Sibyls say shall come to pass, who can doubt that the end has now arrived to the affairs of men and the whole world? It is that city, that only, which still sustains all things; and the God of heaven is to be entreated by us and implored -- if, indeed, His arrangements and decrees can be delayed -- lest, sooner than we think for, that detestable tyrant should come who will trader-take so great a deed, and dig out that eye, by the destruction of which the world itself is about to fall.
Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/07017.htm
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[Oblio]

Not before 3rd century.

If by that you mean to equate them after St. Constantine freed the Christians, then you greatly err. The Church has not been, nor will she ever be pagan, the gates of hades shall not prevail over her, as the Bible says.

 

[hraedisc]

I hope you are not equivocating pagan Rome with the Church in Rome.

Not, absolutely not. Pagan Rome is distinct. Pagan Rome is the 4th beast of Daniel 7. Pagan Rome is the legs of iron in Daniel 2. Pagan Rome is "he who now letteth" in 2 Thess 2.

If by that you mean to equate them after St. Constantine freed the Christians, then you greatly err. The Church has not been, nor will she ever be pagan, the gates of hades shall not prevail over her, as the Bible says.

I had not seen your post before posting that. "Not before 3rd century" was not answering your question but highlighting that prior to the 3rd century those ECF quoted did not see a fulfillment of the prophecies of which I ask.

 

[Oblio]

I had not seen your post before posting that. "Not before 3rd century" was not answering your question but highlighting that prior to the 3rd century those ECF quoted did not see a fulfillment of the prophecies of which I ask.

My bad.

Carry on ...

 

[hraedisc]

It is safe to say that each and every "early church father" that was quoted in posts #8 - #14 did not believe that Daniel 7, Revelation 13 or 17, and 2 Thessalonians 2 had a total fulfillment prior to their lifetimes. Not in the early 30's A.D., not in 70 A.D., not until each of their deaths in the next centuries. "Antichrist" (as they understood it to be in each of their quoted writings) was not prior Roman emperors (Nero included). Not Jewish priests. But a future power. Agreed?

 

[hraedisc]

We need to look to the fulfillment of God's prophecies through Daniel of the little horn (the 11th horn of Daniel 7) as the Roman Empire came to an end around 476 A.D.

Who meets every specification of the characteristics of Daniel 7? Like it or not, only one power in all of history does (that I am aware of).

This one power was to continue its existence until the time of its destruction at the coming of the kingdom of God. The kingdom as described here cannot be the church, as the kingdom comes after the collapse of the Roman Empire and after the rise of the 10 horns and the work of the 11th horn).