Rapture will happen..does it matter when?

[christiansoccerplayer]

Just post the verse that actually says that God will take living people up to heaven.
Until I see it stated and I sure can't see it in the quotes you give, then I will continue to refute it as a false theory.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

 

[Luke17:37]

Yes, I can see how you get there.

Bowl 2 kills all the sea, whilst trumpet 2 kills 1/3rd of it.
Bowl 3 kills the rivers, whlist trumpt 3 kills 1/3rd of rivers.
Bowl 4 scorches with the sun, whilst trumpet 4 renders 1/3rd of sun and moon dark.
Bowl 5 brings darkness and sores, whilst trumpet 5 is smoke from the pit and demons that torment but don't kill.
Bowl 6 has the Euphrates drying up and armies coming, whilst in trumpet 6 an army bound by the Euphrates is unleashed.
Bowl 7 has earthquakes, hail, Babylon destroyed and Armageddon, whilst trumpet 7 has God's Mystery complete, the Temple opened and the Kingdom coming.

Thanks for thinking about it!

My other theory is that the trumpets and bowls are during the last year of the Tribulation.

I don't think that can be the case, as the witnesses get 1,260 days, followed by 3.5 days, and that seems to be after trumpet 4.

Why do you think they have to start witnessing after trumpet 4?

My theory comes from the battle of Jericho and the fact that the seventh seal is the seven trumpets. I think the battle plans of the end may mirror the battle plans from the beginning. I think it fits, because if each seal is a year and the last three and half years are the time when the mark is being forced, the two witnesses are witnessing, and some Israelite believers in Jesus are being protected (see Revelation 12:14-16) while the dragon is persecuting the rest of the saints to death (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 13:15, Revelation 17:6) then that would be halfway through the fourth seal (death from various things). And the martyrs from the fifth seal (and onward) would make sense.

That may be a different event, occuring after the 1000 year reign when Satan is released and then kicked into the firey pit...

That doesn't make sense to me, personally. I think it's suggesting we're here until after Jesus defeats our enemies, which is also expressed in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10.

 

[Inkfingers]

Why do you think they have to start witnessing after trumpet 4?

The fact that they don't get mentioned until then.

My theory comes from the battle of Jericho and the fact that the seventh seal is the seven trumpets. I think the battle plans of the end may mirror the battle plans from the beginning. I think it fits, because if each seal is a year and the last three and half years are the time when the mark is being forced, the two witnesses are witnessing, and some Israelite believers in Jesus are being protected (see Revelation 12:14-16) while the dragon is persecuting the rest of the saints to death (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 13:15, Revelation 17:6) then that would be halfway through the fourth seal (death from various things). And the martyrs from the fifth seal (and onward) would make sense.

I'll have to think some more on that one....its a bit late and my brain runs on solar

That doesn't make sense to me, personally. I think it's suggesting we're here until after Jesus defeats our enemies, which is also expressed in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10.

The tares are thrown into the fire, and that does not happen until after the 1000 year reign when all are judged.

 

[Luke17:37]

What would the two of you think of this alternative timeline (yes, I actually quite enjoy making these although formatting them on here is a bit of a pain) based on Lukes idea of convergent trumpets and bowls:

Rev 6:1-2 ___ 1st Seal _________________ White horse – conquest (false Christs? – Matt 24:5)
Rev 6:3-4 ___ 2nd Seal _________________ Red horse – War (Matt 24:6)
Rev 6:5-6 ___ 3rd Seal _________________ Black horse – Famine (Matt 24:7)
Rev 6:7-8 ___ 4th Seal _________________ Pale horse – Death Pestilence (Matt 24:7)
Rev 6:9-11 __ 5th Seal _________________ Martyrs wait bit longer. (Beginning of the trib & apostasy of Matt 24:9-12)

Okay

_______________________
_ Rev 13 ______ Mark of beast and the Abomination of Desolation (Matthew 24:15)

I think this starts before the people begin to be martyred (before the fifth seal).

____________Rev 8:1-7 ___ Rev 16:1-2 __ Trumpet 1 (hail and fire) and Bowl 1 (Sores on those who bear mark) - Matt 24:21
Rev 6:12-14 _ 6th Seal _________________ Begin of Earthquake, Red moon, Sackcloth sun, stars fall (Matt 24:29)

The seventh seal is the seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2), so I expect 6th seal prior to the 1st trumpet and 1st bowl.

____________Rev 8:8-9 ___ Rev 16:3 ____ Trumpet 2 (Mountain of fire into sea) and Bowl 2 (death of the sea)
____________Rev 8:10-11 _ Rev 16:4 ____ Trumpet 3 (1/3rd dead in rivers, Wormwood) and Bowl 3 (dead rivers)
____________Rev 8:12 ____ Rev 16:8 ____ Trumpet 4 (1/3rd sun and moon dark) and Bowl 4 (suns heat)
Rev 6:16-17

Okay

_________________________ Face of lamb on throne (Jesus comes in clouds Matt 24:30)
Rev 7: 1-3 ___________________________ Elect of God sealed

Where do you get this?

____________Rev 9:1-11 ______________ Trumpet 5 (1st woe. Apollyon & smoke harm non-god-sealed)
____________Rev 16:10 _______________ Bowl 5 (Darkness and sores)
____________Rev 9:12-21 _____________ Trumpet 6 (2nd woe. Euphrates Army. Witnesses killed after 1260 days)
___________ Rev 16:12 ________________Bowl 6 (Euphrates dries, armies)
____________Rev 10/11 _______________ Trumpet 7 (Kingdom come.God's sealed gathered (Matt 24:31))
____________Rev 16:17 _______________ Bowl 7 (3rd Woe, Quake, Hail, Babylon destroyed, Armageddon)

Okay

Rev 8 ______ 7th seal _________________ Silence, then angels give a detailed report of the trumpet events

I think the silence is at the seventh seal, as it says. And then come the trumpets.

Rev 20 ______________________________ 1000 years reign,
Rev 20 ______________________________ After 1000 years Gog-Magog war, Satan final defeat
Rev 21+ _____________________________ White Throne Judgement, Tares into fire, New Jerusalem

Okay. Except I believe the wrath of God against, for example, the armies that surround Jerusalem is the tares being gathered for the fire. (See Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19:21.) They die, but wait a thousand years until they reach their final destination--the Lake of Fire.

 

[Luke17:37]

Why do you think they have to start witnessing after trumpet 4?

The fact that they don't get mentioned until then.

Their death marks the end of the second woe. The first woe is the fifth trumpet. The sting of the locust things lasts five months. Does it make sense that the sixth trumpet would be about three and a half years? To me, it doesn't. I think they start witnessing around the time the mark is enforced. Generally, three and half years are described several times in the Bible associated with the beast's reign (Daniel 12:7, Daniel 12:11, Revelation 12:14, Revelation 13:5).

 

[Inkfingers]

I think this starts before the people begin to be martyred (before the fifth seal).

The falling away comes before the man of sin is revealed...

Where do you get this?

Rev 6:16-17, which you cut off the quote block.

 

[Luke17:37]

The falling away comes before the man of sin is revealed...

They go together. Some will fall away first, some during, some after. But the falling way and the revealing of the man of sin comes before the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).

Rev 6:16-17, which you cut off the quote block.

Ah. Okay. This is how I see Revelation 6:16-17. These people are hiding in the rocks (6th seal... before the trumpets even start) basically asking to be crushed to death because they don't want to meet the Lamb and His wrath. I think it's interesting that they know about "Him Who sits on the throne" and "the Lamb" and His wrath, even though they don't worship Him. I'm convinced they know about Him because the Christians worldwide have been providing the testimony of the Holy Spirit as they are brought before men to be slain (Luke 21:12-19, Matthew 10:16-22, etc.). I don't think He actually appears in the sky until the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52), the seventh trumpet, when the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 11:15-19). When He appears, they won't be able to hide in the rocks. The armies that surround Jerusalem will die while they stand on their feet (Zechariah 14:12) and the birds will come eat their flesh (Revelation 19:17-19, Revelation 19:21).

 

[Inkfingers]

They go together. Some will fall away first, some during, some after. But the falling way and the revealing of the man of sin comes before the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).

I don't think I've said otherwise. Just that the falling away (Matthew 24:9-12) comes before the Abomination and the Mark (Matthew 24:15). The Mark itself is not mentioned in Matthew but it is mention in (Revelation 13) along side the Abomination meaning that they go together.

Ah. Okay. This is how I see Revelation 6:16-17. These people are hiding in the rocks (6th seal... before the trumpets even start) basically asking to be crushed to death because they don't want to meet the Lamb and His wrath. I think it's interesting that they know about "Him Who sits on the throne" and "the Lamb" and His wrath, even though they don't worship Him. I'm convinced they know about Him because the Christians worldwide have been providing the testimony of the Holy Spirit as they are brought before men to be slain (Luke 21:12-19, Matthew 10:16-22, etc.). I don't think He actually appears in the sky until the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52), the seventh trumpet, when the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 11:15-19). When He appears, they won't be able to hide in the rocks. The armies that surround Jerusalem will die while they stand on their feet (Zechariah 14:12) and the birds will come eat their flesh (Revelation 19:17-19, Revelation 19:21).

My point is that they are hiding because he has been revealed in the clouds. That fits because it happens immediately before the seal of God is placed upon the elect in (Revelation 7:1-3). It is though possible that Jesus will come as part of the trumpet 7 events and not before.

 

[Luke17:37]

My point is that they are hiding because he has been revealed in the clouds. That fits because it happens immediately before the seal of God is placed upon the elect in (Revelation 7:1-3). It is though possible that Jesus will come as part of the trumpet 7 events and not before.

I think the seal of God is placed on some of the Israelite elect before the trumpets (before the earth is hurt with the plagues) but maybe even around the time when the mark of the beast starts being enforced, since the protected woman flees into the wilderness for a time, times, and a half a time (3.5 years, I believe) and the dragon isn't permitted to kill her. Only 144,000 of the Israelite elect get this mark for protection. I believe the rest of the elect (Gentile and Israelite) who are Christians at that point will be largely given into the hands of the beast to be slain. But then there will also be people coming to Christ in the plagues (e.g., Hosea 5:14-15 and Hosea 6:1-3) and some of them should also survive.

Revelation 7 is parenthetical. It isn't in a sequential timeline, so we don't know exactly when they are sealed. But we do know they are sealed before the earth is hurt by the plagues (for example, in the trumpets). And because they are sealed, they will be protected from the fifth trumpet (the scorpion-like sting that lasts five months).

If they are in the rocks hoping to be buried alive, how can they look up and see the Lamb in the sky? I think they just assume He will appear at any moment, and yet the seven trumpets remain! I don't think He's coming until the seventh trumpet. And at that time, they will be unable to protect themselves from His wrath. Technically, those with the mark will start to experience His wrath very soon with the first bowl (people with the mark get a festering sore), and it will just get worse until the Lamb is revealed in glory.

 

[keras]

Keras said:
Just post the verse that actually says that God will take living people up to heaven.
Until I see it stated and I sure can't see it in the quotes you give, then I will continue to refute it as a false theory.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

Thanks, CSP, at least you have the courage of your belief to reply to me.
But that Bible passage isn't saying that God will rapture anyone up to heaven. In fact heaven is only mentioned there as the place Jesus will descend from. As Matthew 24:30-31 says: at Jesus' Return to earth, He will send out His angels to gather the elect people to Him, where He is; at that point, in the clouds - in the earths atmosphere and from there He lands onto the Mount of olives, Zechariah 14:3 when He destroys the army attacking Jerusalem and binds Satan. Revelation 19:11-21
The gathering of the Lord's people will be a similar transportation as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

The teaching that confuses most rapture believers, is Two People, Two promises; Israel and Christians separate. This is wrong, there is only one people of God. John 10:16
Christians are now the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16, made clear in Galatians 3:26-29 and Romans 9:8
So all the great promises of God to His people, true righteous Israel, pertain to Christians; of every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
Read the thread 'End Times story' for the details of God's plans for His people.

 

[Inkfingers]

I think the seal of God is placed on some of the Israelite elect before the trumpets (before the earth is hurt with the plagues) but maybe even around the time when the mark of the beast starts being enforced, since the protected woman flees into the wilderness for a time, times, and a half a time (3.5 years, I believe) and the dragon isn't permitted to kill her.

That doesn't stop him trying though....which doesn't seem in line with the seal of God protection.

Only 144,000 of the Israelite elect get this mark for protection. I believe the rest of the elect (Gentile and Israelite) who are Christians at that point will be largely given into the hands of the beast to be slain. But then there will also be people coming to Christ in the plagues (e.g., Hosea 6:1-3) and some of them should also survive

Yes, I'm increasingly wondering if Christians only get into heaven (during this period) if martyred by the beast, with only the sealed elect getting raptured. Thessaloniki was mostly Gentile though, so the rapture was preached to gentiles.

Edit: ah, but there are gentile elect, they just don't get the seal of God...so they would get raptured if they managed to survive the tribulation.

Revelation 7 is parenthetical. It isn't in a sequential timeline, so we don't know exactly when they are sealed. But we do know they are sealed before the earth is hurt by the plagues (for example, in the trumpets). And because they are sealed, they will be protected from the fifth trumpet (the scorpion-like sting that lasts five months).

I agree that they are certainly sealed before trumpet 5, but what reference is there of the seal providing protection against earlier plagues?

If they are in the rocks hoping to be buried alive, how can they look up and see the Lamb in the sky? I think they just assume He will appear at any moment, and yet the seven trumpets remain! I don't think He's coming until the seventh trumpet. And at that time, they will be unable to protect themselves from His wrath. Technically, those with the mark will start to experience His wrath very soon with the first bowl (people with the mark get a festering sore), and it will just get worse until the Lamb is revealed in glory.

True. I was just thinking of them hiding from the face of the lamb because they caught a glimpse...

 

[Luke17:37]

Yes, I'm increasingly wondering if Christians only get into heaven (during this period) if martyred by the beast, with only the sealed elect getting raptured. Thessaloniki was mostly Gentile though, so the rapture was preached to gentiles.

Edit: ah, but there are gentile elect, they just don't get the seal of God...so they would get raptured if they managed to survive the tribulation.

I don't think the Gentile elect and non-sealed Israelites (to that point) can possibly survive, since the fifth trumpet afflicts everyone who doesn't have the seal of God and I just don't think God will let any Christian get this tormenting sting. I bet He will use the misery of it to turn Israelites to Christ, though. I don't think the sealed 144,000 elect get raptured, either until the seventh trumpet, although they at least have a vision of heaven as described in Revelation 14.

I've had a conviction of post-tribulation resurrection-gathering for years. I don't believe there will be a rapture (gathering) of anyone until the one when Jesus appears after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). 2 Thessalonians 1 describes how His coming will bring rest to the elect and punishment to the wicked, and then Paul goes on to say in chapter 2 how the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him hasn't happened and won't come until after the falling away (apostasia - the apostasy) and the revealing of the man of sin who demands to be worshipped as if he was God (cp. Revelation 13:8, Revelation 13:15).

1 Thessalonians 4 says very clearly that the gathering of the surviving elect does not precede the resurrection of the dead in Christ. If you look at Revelation 20:4-6, it says the beheaded who do not take the mark of the beast will be raised from the dead in the first resurrection. Since the gathering of the survivors can't precede the resurrection and since the first resurrection (the resurrection of the righteous) doesn't appear to happen until the end (after there are all these Tribulation martyrs), then the gathering of survivors can't happen earlier. The mention of the beheaded who don't take the mark provides an anchor for the resurrection, and thus, for the gathering of the survivors. There are lots of passages depicting a post-tribulation gathering at the return of Christ and there isn't anything suggesting otherwise.

I agree that they are certainly sealed before trumpet 5, but what reference is there of the seal providing protection against earlier plagues?

Revelation 7:1–3 (NKJV)
7 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

(1st Trumpet)
Revelation 8:7 (NKJV)
7 The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

(2nd Trumpet)
Revelation 8:8–9 (NKJV)
8 Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

You get the idea... Since the angels aren't allowed to harm the earth until these 144,000 servants are sealed, it suggests that they are sealed for their supernatural protection from these plagues. The other believers might die from the plagues, or they will die from the sword. I believe God is able to keep each one of His servants alive until he or she has fulfilled the purpose God has for them, and if they are martyred subsequently, their blood is an offering of worship to the Lord. God is pleased with them (Revelation 14:12-13).

The reason I speak out is because I want the Church to be prepared to overcome in the Tribulation (Revelation 12:11). We can't be prepared to endure in faith through the trials described if we expect to be gone before any of these hard days start. Nobody knows if God may cut short their days and spare them from having to be on the earth during this time (Isaiah 57:1, Revelation 3:10), but it's best to be prepared in the event that these things come upon our generation.

 

[Luke17:37]

@Inkfingers, it's been enjoyable talking with you today. I think your screen name is pretty cool, by the way. Are you an artist or a writer? I'm a writer who likes art. I mostly practice photography for fun and I love evangelistic film (especially the work of www.messengerfilms.com). My brother is a very talented visual artist. His fingers sometimes have ink and paint and stuff on them, but he's pretty neat, now, so mostly those things end up on his jeans from time to time.

 

[Straightshot]

"The reason I speak out is because I want the Church to be prepared to overcome in the Tribulation (Revelation 12:11). We can't be prepared to endure in faith through the trials described if we expect to be gone before any of these hard days start. Nobody knows if God may cut short their days and spare them from having to be on the earth during this time (Isaiah 57:1, Revelation 3:10), but it's best to be prepared in the event that these things come upon our generation."


Are you prepared and if so what have you done to prepare to enter the Lord's period of wrath and judgment?

Do you think that He will in some way keep you from the wiles of the tribulation period while you are there?

Why do you think that it will be necessary for you to experience the Lord's time of trial and judgment and not other believers of the dead in Christ?

Also, do you know that there will be believing mortal humans who will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals immediately after the days of the tribulation?

If all of these are to be resurrected to immortality at the ending of the tribulation as you think, who will be left to enter and populate the kingdom?

Do you know that the Lord's unmitigated wrath of the tribulation will be directed to an entire unbelieving world .... like it was in the days of Noah?

All on the earth perished except for one man and his family saved to repopulate the earth

There will be no believers upon the earth when He unleashes His next judgement .... not one

The first who will become believers will be 144000 mortals of the nation of Israel, and these will witness to Israel and to the nations of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom .... and others will turn and believe

However, most will be martyred for their faith and few will survive the days of the tribuation

The Lord will gather those believing mortals who survive and these will populate His millennial kingdom .... as mortals

Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 25:31-46 depicts this gathering just after the days of the tribulation, of Israel and of the nations of the Gentiles

There is no resurrection to immortality of any of these gathered

There will be a resurrection to immortality at the ending of the tribulation for the believing martyrs and for the Lord's two prophets [Revelation 6:9-11; 11:11] .... but no for anyone else

So where do you fit in?

He has said for believers today to be ready .... ready for what?

To enter His period of wrath to be judged?

Nay .... but for this [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-38; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

Here is the proof of this pre-tribulation experience .... those who participate are seen as immortals during the coming judgment [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those alredy on thrones]]

No man has gone to heaven yet except the One who has come down from heaven .... so those seen in Revelation's unfolding have to be the Lord's pre-tribulation ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and those living just before during the tribulation .... those who dwell in heaven

 

[Psalm3704]

Keras said:
Just post the verse that actually says that God will take living people up to heaven.
Until I see it stated and I sure can't see it in the quotes you give, then I will continue to refute it as a false theory.

Thanks, CSP, at least you have the courage of your belief to reply to me.
But that Bible passage isn't saying that God will rapture anyone up to heaven. In fact heaven is only mentioned there as the place Jesus will descend from.

Philippians 3:20-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Ephesians 2:19 New King James Version (NKJV)
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Ephesians 2:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Philippians 1:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

2 Corinthians 5:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

John 14:2-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

2 Corinthians 5:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Hebrews 11:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:16 New King James Version (NKJV)
But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 13:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.

Hebrews 12:22-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Revelation 3:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Revelation 7:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Revelation 7:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Revelation 8:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 19:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Matthew 6:20-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 5:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

1 Peter 1:3-4 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1) Matthew 3:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

2) Matthew 4:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

3a) John 6:39-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

3b) John 6:44 New King James Version (NKJV)
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

4a) Luke 23:42-43 New King James Version (NKJV)
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

4b) Matthew 27:50-53 New King James Version (NKJV)
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

5) 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.











.

 

[Inkfingers]

@Inkfingers, it's been enjoyable talking with you today. I think your screen name is pretty cool, by the way. Are you an artist or a writer? I'm a writer who likes art. I mostly practice photography for fun and I love evangelistic film (especially the work of www.messengerfilms.com). My brother is a very talented visual artist. His fingers sometimes have ink and paint and stuff on them, but he's pretty neat, now, so mostly those things end up on his jeans from time to time.

Ah, it is a reference to my love of fountain pens when writing, and to the copious notes I've written trying to figure things out over the years. Ballpoints are an abomination to me but yes it's good to have a pleasant conversation online - quite often people forget their manners (and that includes me) online.

 

[Inkfingers]

I don't think the Gentile elect and non-sealed Israelites (to that point) can possibly survive, since the fifth trumpet afflicts everyone who doesn't have the seal of God and I just don't think God will let any Christian get this tormenting sting. I bet He will use the misery of it to turn Israelites to Christ, though. I don't think the sealed 144,000 elect get raptured, either until the seventh trumpet, although they at least have a vision of heaven as described in Revelation 14.

The two witnesses also have the seal of God but are slain in the end as well. That might be my next puzzle; figuring out their identity (I'm not convinced that they are 2 people as they are also lampstands and that usually means churches). I don't believe that the sealed elect are protected from everything - indeed the whole events are cut short for their sake!

I've had a conviction of post-tribulation resurrection-gathering for years. I don't believe there will be a rapture (gathering) of anyone until the one when Jesus appears after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). 2 Thessalonians 1 describes how His coming will bring rest to the elect and punishment to the wicked, and then Paul goes on to say in chapter 2 how the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him hasn't happened and won't come until after the falling away (apostasia - the apostasy) and the revealing of the man of sin who demands to be worshipped as if he was God (cp. Revelation 13:8, Revelation 13:15).

Yes, I am pretty much convinced that the rapture will be at the 7th trumpet; when God's mystery is completed, the temple opens and the kindgom comes - if that isn't rapture time I don't know what is!!

Revelation 7:1–3 (NKJV)
7 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

(1st Trumpet)
Revelation 8:7 (NKJV)
7 The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

(2nd Trumpet)
Revelation 8:8–9 (NKJV)
8 Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

You get the idea... Since the angels aren't allowed to harm the earth until these 144,000 servants are sealed, it suggests that they are sealed for their supernatural protection from these plagues. The other believers might die from the plagues, or they will die from the sword. I believe God is able to keep each one of His servants alive until he or she has fulfilled the purpose God has for them, and if they are martyred subsequently, their blood is an offering of worship to the Lord. God is pleased with them (Revelation 14:12-13).

That's a good and interesting point, yes. It seems very likely then that the sealing is prior to trumpet 1 and seal 6.

The reason I speak out is because I want the Church to be prepared to overcome in the Tribulation (Revelation 12:11). We can't be prepared to endure in faith through the trials described if we expect to be gone before any of these hard days start. Nobody knows if God may cut short their days and spare them from having to be on the earth during this time (Isaiah 57:1, Revelation 3:10), but it's best to be prepared in the event that these things come upon our generation.

That's why I'm trying to set out a timeline as well. If I can depict it clearly, in a visual form that lays the pattern out, it may help people.

 

[Luke17:37]

The two witnesses also have the seal of God but are slain in the end as well. That might be my next puzzle; figuring out their identity (I'm not convinced that they are 2 people as they are also lampstands and that usually means churches). I don't believe that the sealed elect are protected from everything - indeed the whole events are cut short for their sake!



Yes, I am pretty much convinced that the rapture will be at the 7th trumpet; when God's mystery is completed, the temple opens and the kindgom comes - if that isn't rapture time I don't know what is!!



That's a good and interesting point, yes. It seems very likely then that the sealing is prior to trumpet 1 and seal 6.



That's why I'm trying to set out a timeline as well. If I can depict it clearly, in a visual form that lays the pattern out, it may help people.

There are several things we know, but some timeline details can only be theories, since the Bible doesn't tell us everything definitively.

Best wishes.

 

[Inkfingers]

There are several things we know, but some timeline details can only be theories, since the Bible doesn't tell us everything definitively.

Best wishes.

Just been thinking on your theory on trumpets and bowls going together and wondering if the trumpets are truncated warnings of the bowls to come (which may occur close to each other or in two distinct groups of trumpets than bowls). Going to ponder this some more....

 

[keras]

Philippians 3:20-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Great effort to hit me with all you've got!
Sad really, that none of those verses actually say God intends to take living people to heaven.
The verse above, for example, tells us that as true Christians, our names are written in the Book of Life, that is held in heaven and we wait for Jesus to come down from heaven to transform us. Never is it even hinted, that we go up there, in fact you contradict Jesus with that idea. John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23