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Rapture Before Wrath
- Thread starter bibletruth469
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Brother, I appreciate you reposting some of the links I have used in the past.
You claim that "you and others" have proven this information is not correct in the past. You are going to have to do a little better than that.
You claim the information came from the internet. You must not know the difference between information posted on a website and sourced information found online that can be found within books in libraries. One example is Lacunza's book, "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" which includes Edward Irving's commentary within the English translation published in 1827. You can actually buy a copy of this book if you would like, but it will be expensive. The link I posted shows photographs of the actual text from the book. It is not information made up on the internet. If you do not believe it buy a copy of the book and compare the text. There are several independent sources of the book given in the presentation "Genesis of Dispensational Theology" that will allow you to check it for yourself. You would know that if you had actually watched the presentation. You will never be able to understand the history of your doctrine, if you do not understand the difference between posted claims and sourced information, such as that used by Pastor Tim Warner.
You then turn around and state you had no prior knowledge of those like Lacunza, Irving, Macdonald, and Darby that started your doctrine before it was presented on this forum. Most dispensationalists are at least aware of John Darby.
Something does not add up here. How can someone with almost no knowledge of the history of a doctrine prove anything related to it?
It is more pretribber doubletalk.
I do understand why you are upset that someone would post the history of your doctrine.
Sometimes the truth is painful.
.
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iamlamad
Lamad
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John shows us in Rev. 7 that at the time of the rapture it will be "great tribulation" around the world. How can tribulation be any greater for someone that killing them? It is that way in much of the world today. I have no doubt it will move west.
However, John was not talking about the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of that will be greater than all the rest. Those days are limited to starting after the midpoint of the 70th week, which is still future. The bride of Christ will be in heaven at that time. "those days" of "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of will come at a time when God's wrath will be unleashed at the same time in the vials. Paul said God did not set that appointment for His bride - so we will not be here if we are found worthy to be raptured.
So that fits PERFECTLY into the endtimes scriptures.
LAMAD
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iamlamad
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Silly argument: there will be only ONE rapture for the bride, and it is not yet time for it. Will you be found worthy to be caught up? Or are you expecting to see the Beast first?
LAMAD
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iamlamad
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If you understood REvelation, then the large group, too large to number, seen in Rev. 7 around the throne would be your very clear verse. However, with the preconceived glassed you have on, no, there is no clear verse. All the verses you read are CLOUDY verses clouded by preconceptions. In Rev. 7 John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint where the days of GT will begin.
OF course, 2 Thes. 2 is another clear verse, IF you understood Paul's real meaning. Again, 1 thes 4 & 5 are clear if understood without preconceptions.
At which point of the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God?
Case in point: God's wrath begins in Rev. chapter 6, LONG before the days of great tribulation. Your preconceived glasses are showing.
Do you think that Revelation 15 and 16 who happen after the seven trumps is the starting of God's wrath?
More preconceptions being revealed: John TELLS US when God's wrath begins. It is in Rev. chapter 6, before the 70th week even begins. By the time the vials are poured out, God's wrath is at its PEAK. God is not happy with all the believers being beheaded at that time. He fills the vials with His wrath. He is FURIOUS at this time and will cut the days of GT short.
LAMAD
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iamlamad
Lamad
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The problem occurs when pretribbers describe all of the trib as the wrath of God.
At least part of the wrath during this time comes from Satan based on Rev. 12:12.
God's wrath is poured out on the unbelievers on the last day of the trib after we are gathered by Christ at his return.
Your ignorance of the word of God is astounding, since you are here attempting to teach false doctrine to others, when your own knowledge is negligible.
The truth is, God's wrath begins right where John tells us: in Rev. Chapter 6 before John has even started or begun or opened the 70th week. God's wrath then continues on through the ENTIRE BOOK OF REVELATION to chapter 19 When Jesus returns to earth. Satan's wrath begins when he is cast down. So THE TRUTH: God's wrath is concurrent with Satan's wrath: they both happen at the same time and CANNOT BE SEPARATED.
LAMAD
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NannaNae
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there is a lot of stuff you( and other here ) don't understand about God and his purposes.
he has purposes , and it is your job to know yours in that time and know him better than now... other wise those who don't know him and don't know their place will just be more freakin out humans getting in big daddy's way!
the three and one half years HE/ heaven and all LIFE IS HERE and they are all WORKING , the angels and everyone who is OF Life.. isn't it all a time of his visitation on the world? it is not his "COMING" like you are describing it . but he is capable of more as a director than an actor!!
you are only talking about the day he becomes and actor in the theater .
mankind who don't know him will only understand that time as "his wrath" , but it is not about his wrath.. that is what their fear will believe all who dont know him will only whow that and will keep getting in big daddy's way by keeping on mongering their neighbors. it is the only thing the unliving/ not in the book of life/ the spiritually dead/ all who haven't got a clue who he really is or what his prophecies mean can only believe about him . they are only capable of understanding FEAR OF HIM.
They wouldn't take his directions and learn of him before that time.. so they can only understand fear then. .. they refuse to know him or his purposes now and what is really going on NOW so why would they understand anything about what is happening then ? pray about it. I don't want to talk about it and I don't feel lead to tell the world what will really be going on. he didn't say it clearly anyplace for a reason . it is not their place to understand it if they don't know him and refuse to understand him , unless they first understand it by knowing him and his word .
yes but what is it He is doing here before he "comes in great glory" and becomes the man , the actor in this play ? but 3/ 1/2 years of directing what just a big blood bath ? he could do that in seconds why 3 1/2 years ?
now take all those verse in the bible your mind and everyones mind has justified away and allegorized because your heart believes God is as impotent as we are . well he is not , we are , but he isn't !
now is a good place to re- read the allegory of the 10 virgins! and to remember it wasn't 5 hookers and 5 virgins in that little play about the big play !
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In Revelation chapter 6 the Apostle John is given a preview or summary of things to be revealed in more detail later. Many times this is done within scientific papers. A short summary of the article is given before the main article. Many are confused by the Book of Revelation because they insist that it must be totally chronological and then they force it into their preconceived framework. The harvest of Rev. chapter 14 and the events of chapters 16 and 19 cannot be chronological. However, we are likely to hear a reply that will force the text to do so.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The description above is a summary of Christ's return to judge and pour out his wrath on the kings of the earth in Rev. chapter 19, found below.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Beware of those who force the text into their dispensational framework and then tell you those with a different viewpoint are ignorant of God's Word.
.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The description above is a summary of Christ's return to judge and pour out his wrath on the kings of the earth in Rev. chapter 19, found below.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Beware of those who force the text into their dispensational framework and then tell you those with a different viewpoint are ignorant of God's Word.
.
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NannaNae
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Beware of everyone .. KNOW HIM .. KNOW HIS WORD, KNOW HIS WILL , KNOW HOW TO PRAY OUR father which art in heaven , ....come .....thy will be done.................... and Mean it . KNow him of old and new testament.. and his festivals and every prophesy .
everyone else is a liar and the truth isn't in them.
KNOW HIM!
He is only LIFE!
everyone else is a liar and the truth isn't in them.
KNOW HIM!
He is only LIFE!
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Riberra
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That is logical in the context that the apostles were hoping to see Jesus Second Coming during their lifetime .
Luke 17:22
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
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NannaNae
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Tit 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
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BAB, respectully, you're "Trib is NOT God's wrath arguement" is as full of holes, as your one-sided notions of men arguement that Dispensationalism, et al is false due to its suppposed origin.
You just reveal by that what you take "B-A-Berean too" actually means to YOU.
By your logic any source that claims "Christ died for your sins" is wrong just because its ulterior motive is, never mind that "Christ is preached." [that is if you know the sense of this passage I have just cited]
In this, you remain the.unskilled person described at the end of Hebrews 5...
By the way, when you post your already obvious questions as to Stam's " Things That Differ," lol, post them on the Dispenstaional forum; save us both the headache "what are these two talking about" should they of moved over there anyway.
No offense intended... at the same time,.as much you have complained about how rabid some Dispys have supposedly been, you might consider how offensive your own rabid words might be taken by some - in this you also reveal your one-sidedness once more.
You might want to leave that at the Cross...
Sincerely,
You just reveal by that what you take "B-A-Berean too" actually means to YOU.
By your logic any source that claims "Christ died for your sins" is wrong just because its ulterior motive is, never mind that "Christ is preached." [that is if you know the sense of this passage I have just cited]
In this, you remain the.unskilled person described at the end of Hebrews 5...
By the way, when you post your already obvious questions as to Stam's " Things That Differ," lol, post them on the Dispenstaional forum; save us both the headache "what are these two talking about" should they of moved over there anyway.
No offense intended... at the same time,.as much you have complained about how rabid some Dispys have supposedly been, you might consider how offensive your own rabid words might be taken by some - in this you also reveal your one-sidedness once more.
You might want to leave that at the Cross...
Sincerely,
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NannaNae
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Jer 17:7
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
1Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Mat 22:31
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Act 17:32
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
Act 23:6
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Act 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Act 24:21
Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.
1Co 15:12
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Phl 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Heb 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Here are the remaining matches.
Rom 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
1Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
1Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Mat 22:31
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Act 17:32
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
Act 23:6
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Act 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Act 24:21
Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.
1Co 15:12
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Phl 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Heb 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Here are the remaining matches.
Rom 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
1Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
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NannaNae, without Mid-Acts Dispensationalism,those passages appear all appear to be referring to the same issue.
For example, Phil 3:11 is relating the Rom. 6-8 reality - which has to do with living THAT resurrection"s reality in the here and now.
Just a thought...
For example, Phil 3:11 is relating the Rom. 6-8 reality - which has to do with living THAT resurrection"s reality in the here and now.
Just a thought...
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- Apr 14, 2013
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I believe that God works in dispensations throughout history, age of the church and the future tribulation , then in the millennium. This is truth and is shown in the scripture. How can anyone not see this? Also, Israel and the church are separate entities . Israel has not turned into the church. Replacement theology is false.
I am off the subject, however, I thought this was important to mention!
I am off the subject, however, I thought this was important to mention!
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Brother Danoh,
We will most certainly agree to disagree on dispensational theology. I cannot accept it and you cannot let go of it.
In the verses below we have those who you would probably call "tribulation Saints" and I would call members of the Body of Christ.
Let us forget for a moment our disagreement over the timing of the rapture. These people still have the witness of Christ and are labeled as Saints.
According to your definition of the Wrath of God, these people who have the witness of Christ and are labeled as Saints are killed by God's wrath instead of Satan's wrath. It is this type of logic that I cannot agree with.
It is like saying that the Apostle Paul was beheaded due to God's wrath. It makes no sense to my small mind.
However, you have to continue saying this or see your doctrine fall apart.
Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev_13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev_13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
If the words above are considered "rabid" or "offensive" I will have to accept that.
Maybe you think they are "rabid or offensive", because they do not agree with your doctrine.
Based on the messages I heard this week from those who "rightly divide the Word of truth" there is no way I can ever be a Berean, because I do not support the dispensational doctrine.
I will also always be labeled as "unskilled" because I do not "rightly divide the Word of truth" between the mystery "only revealed to our Apostle Paul" and that spoken by the other 12 Apostles, in the words of some Mid-Acts Dispensationalists.
I also do not "rightly divide" between the books of the Bible written to the Jews and those written to the Body.
Your comment about "Christ died for your sins" is a sad commentary, because it is the one thing we have in common.
It appears you are attempting to say I do not even understand the Gospel.
That would be labeled by many as a personal attack.
It is the 3rd step in the debate mechanism of most dispensationalists.
1. Ignore or ridicule those who talk about the origin of the doctrine.
2. Attempt to discuss the scripture by taking scripture out of context or dividing it into that for the descendants of Jacob and that for the Church.
3. If the first two steps are not successful, make an attack upon the person who dares to doubt the dispensational doctrine.
These 3 steps have been repeated over and over again on this forum.
Some are starting to see the truth, and that is very frustrating for others.
.
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Bab, unfortunately you continue to prove my point; the very last thing I would want you to continue to prove....
I am not referring to your conviction against Dispensationalism and or its Eschatology, nor to your citing of what ever passages you might, rather to your rabid words against those who supposedly came up with, held to, or hold to it.
And to your citing of sources outside of Scripture on this issue.
You want to save us from our error, than by all means, but actually apply Acts 17: 11, 12, not Google/PDF/YOUTUBE DOT COM.
Reflect on that a moment - according to you, we arrived at our view through some Jesuit Priest, some teenage girl, and Darby and so on - in short - through sources outside Scripture.
Never mind that Martin Luther - a DEVOUT Roman Catholic Monk "came up with" his odd notion of Romans 5:1 - the very view many of us on the many sides of the many fences on here now hold.
But really, you expect to liberate us from outside source influenced doctrine via outside source counter to it?
The Tribulation is Israel's AGREED to wrath of God upon them CORPORATELY - that nation AGREED TO suffer the Tribulation of His wrath upon them ALL - Lev. 26; Dan. 9; Mal. 3; Matt. 3; Matt. 24; Heb. 3, oh, what's the use, have it your way, brother, so long as you're saved, and thus, complete in Him despite your confusion on the above - we'll have eternity for me to look over at you with that knowing smile about it all
So, He wanted to present you perfect in understanding NOW... ok, have it your way - just point Him to a youtube video, lol
I mean, we might as well be lighthearted about all this. I mean, after, even though I am right - we're both complete in Him, right?
I am not referring to your conviction against Dispensationalism and or its Eschatology, nor to your citing of what ever passages you might, rather to your rabid words against those who supposedly came up with, held to, or hold to it.
And to your citing of sources outside of Scripture on this issue.
You want to save us from our error, than by all means, but actually apply Acts 17: 11, 12, not Google/PDF/YOUTUBE DOT COM.
Reflect on that a moment - according to you, we arrived at our view through some Jesuit Priest, some teenage girl, and Darby and so on - in short - through sources outside Scripture.
Never mind that Martin Luther - a DEVOUT Roman Catholic Monk "came up with" his odd notion of Romans 5:1 - the very view many of us on the many sides of the many fences on here now hold.
But really, you expect to liberate us from outside source influenced doctrine via outside source counter to it?
The Tribulation is Israel's AGREED to wrath of God upon them CORPORATELY - that nation AGREED TO suffer the Tribulation of His wrath upon them ALL - Lev. 26; Dan. 9; Mal. 3; Matt. 3; Matt. 24; Heb. 3, oh, what's the use, have it your way, brother, so long as you're saved, and thus, complete in Him despite your confusion on the above - we'll have eternity for me to look over at you with that knowing smile about it all
So, He wanted to present you perfect in understanding NOW... ok, have it your way - just point Him to a youtube video, lol
I mean, we might as well be lighthearted about all this. I mean, after, even though I am right - we're both complete in Him, right?
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NannaNae
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we have nothing unless there is a resurrection at the 7th trumpet.. it is our hope, they all hoped to be part of it.. to be part of that pre wrath event to be part of that pre wrath team here or there . it is the same trial.
but it won't be over , no relaxing until he comes.
everyone has 3 1/2 years of work to do.don't forget it .
if you don't know what he is going to be doing chance are you aren't going to be doing it in concert with him!
then you will have work to do here on earth and possibly with it reap man's wrath or even satan's wrath.
so if we really love him as much as we all claim but have no clue what is going on , did you really love him as much as we want to believe we do ?
paul was worried about making that resurrection to be part of the team .... should we all be worried about it too then ?
it is our great hope.
5 virgins make it to work inside , 5 stay out to do what he asks out side ! which place would we rather work at ? but we are all just being servants!
but you all are so busy arguing over if there will be a resurrection and when you have no clue why there is even a resurrection then 3 1/2 years before he comes?
it ain't to save you fanny from the fire guys! it ain't over till we see him face to face on the 8th day.
until then we are his servants and we all better start acting like it.
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Ok, Nanna, obviously, you both nana'd as well as nayed, what I wrote rather than simply comparing the "righteousness of the law" issue that Paul was dealing with, both, in Phil. 3 and in Rom. 7 and 8 in light of Rom. 6, and while your at it, should you choose, the Acts 17: 11, 12 approach, consider also, Rom. 5, and Gal. 2.
Those virgins? You mean the Law economy still in effect in Matt. - John, thus, Christ's constant "what did Moses write... say... command?
Nope, I think I'll go with Rom. 3:20 and 6:14, 15
Those virgins? You mean the Law economy still in effect in Matt. - John, thus, Christ's constant "what did Moses write... say... command?
Nope, I think I'll go with Rom. 3:20 and 6:14, 15
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