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Rapture Before Wrath

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by bibletruth469, Aug 2, 2014.

  1. bibletruth469

    bibletruth469 Joyful

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    There are several verses contained within the scripture that show that the rapture will occur before the wrath or the tribulation period. First of all, let's look at Titus 2:13. It states, " Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and savior Jesus Christ". We Christian believers are not looking for wrath, but as this verse states, we are looking for His glorious appearing to us which will take place at the rapture.

    Believers are anxiously awaiting for the rapture to take place. 1 thess 1:10," And to wait for His Son from heaven whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivered us from the wrath to come". To wait means to have great expectation and fulfillments of Gods promises to the saints.

    Now look at 1 thess 5:9," For God hath not appointed us to wrath, But to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". In contrast, rev 6:16 ," And said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne , and from the wrath of the Lamb".and Matt 24:21 ," for then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be". These verses mention the horrific time period which is the tribulation period. I draw my conclusion that the saints will be ( delivered, raptured, caught up) whichever term one wants to use, before the tribulation.

    There are also hints of a rapture before wrath that can be found in the Old Testament . Look at Isaiah 26:19-21," thy dead men shall live together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come my people , enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment , until the indignation be over past. For behold, The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity : the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain".

    Christ will rapture genuine believers out of the world to escape wrath. Look at rev 3:10," Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth". The hour of temptation which has not occurred yet, is a worldwide testing. Christ promises to Keep them From( Greek word, ' ek' out of) the tribulation.

    In conclusion , the believers that are' in Christ' will not have to endure the wrath of the tribulation, but will be caught up to meet The Lord in the air and forever will be with The Lord . Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 thess 4:17-18.
     
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  2. John S

    John S I'm Here - For Now

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    Rapture before the wrath - NOPE.
    Will Christians have to live and die during the Tribulation - YUP.
    Are the Christians of the Western world any more special than Christians in every other part of the world who are dying today or have died by the millions in the past - NOPE.
    Is the Rapture, at least until after the return of Jesus Christ, going to happen - NOPE.
     
  3. Isaiah Jeremiah

    Isaiah Jeremiah New Member

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    What a bleak outlook. No hope, no salvation for deliverance. No faith.

    Most Christians in the middle east by their faith have successfully fled to other countries for safety in Europe and other parts of the world.
     
  4. PhillipLaSpino

    PhillipLaSpino Achieve; don’t plunder!

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    If we are too earthly minded we will be no heavenly good!

    John, you just sit around and wait for the Tribulation to begin. When it does begin and you're thrown into the middle of the tribulation, and it’s obvious you will because you will not be prepared for the Lord’s return before tribulation. When this happens, you can break out your count-down colander and start marking off 7 years, that’s if the anti-Christ will give you a pencil to write with.

    I'll watch from heaven

    Phil
     
  5. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    I'm Pre-Prophecy myself. What many refer to as Pre-Trib.

    I say Pre-Prophecy from my understanding that God's Prophesied pland and purpose for this Earth through His re-establishment of David's throne one day, is on hold once more. This time, that His kept Hid in Himself Mystery Age unfold, one of which its unique doctrines is our gathering together unto Him sometime prior to His turning His attention back to making a short work in righteousness on this planet, and with that His dealings with the children of Israel not yet born, for that is His covenant unto that nation.

    In this, Rev. 3:10 is not the Rapture, rather, it is that election of Israel not yet born, who, during Israel's final hour, during that nation's prophesied coming refiner's fire, He will keep those who have believed on Him from said hours tempting them to give in to the Adversary's deceit, as, all.about them, their beloved nation departs from the God of their Fathers, to the synagague of Satan.

    Lot of verses in this post. Ours is to dig them out through the only way possible - through "Nevertheless, what saith the Scriptures?," over the traditions of men, including my own...
     
  6. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    How will He keep them? Through His Word. Father, sanctify them through Thy Word. Through their letting patience have, or result in, its perfect work, during that trying of their faith, as they by faith, take Him at His Word. You might recall that the very prophet given the timeline as to their final week had been an excellent example of this, during that nation's previous trial according to the Law.
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Haven't you read the great promises of God to His people? Promises of restoration, of peace and security as they go to live in all of the holy Land.
    THAT is our hope, our faith in Jesus is our salvation and He is our Deliverer.

    The Blessings to His people as they go back to the Land, after the Lord's Day of wrath that will depopulate the entire Middle East: Ezekiel 30:1-5
    Jeremiah 33:6-14 See this Land: it lies in ruins, inhabited by neither man or animals. Yet in this place, once more will be heard the sounds of joy and happiness, for I will restore the fortunes of My Land and people. The days are coming, says the Lord, when I shall bestow on Judah and Israel all the blessings I have promised to them.
    Isaiah 30:18 The Lord is waiting to show you His favour. He yearns to have pity on you, for the Lord is full of justice. Happy are you who wait on Him.
    Isaiah 54:4-10... For a passing moment I forsook you, but with tender affection I shall bring you home again....My covenant promising peace will not be shaken.
    Hosea 2:14-23 But now I shall woo her and restore her vineyards. I shall betroth her to Myself, making her faithful, they will know the Lord. Israel will be My new sowing in the Land, I will show love to Israel and Judah and say to them ‘You are My people’. They will say ‘You are our God’.
    Hosea 14:4-7 I shall heal My peoples apostasy and love them freely, for My anger is turned away from them. I shall be as dew to Israel that they may flower and put forth shoots. I am the tree that shelters you; your prosperity comes from Me.
    Isaiah 52:6 On that Day My people will know My name and know that it is the Lord who speaks, here I am.
    Ezekiel 34:22-31 Therefore, I shall save My flock and they will be ravaged no more....... You are the flock that I feed and I am your God.
    Isaiah 65:24-25 Even before My people call to Me, I shall answer. Neither hurt nor harm will be done in all of My holy Land.
    Zechariah 8:13-15 To the nations, you Judah and Israel have been as a curse, now I shall save you and you will become a blessing. Courage! Do not lose heart.
    Isaiah 46:4 Till you grow old, I am the Lord and when white hairs come, I will carry you still. I have made you and I shall uphold you. I shall carry you away to safety.
    Isaiah 65:20-23 My people will build and plant for themselves, they will enjoy the fruit of their labour. They will be as long lived as a tree.
    Jeremiah 31:23-28 ...The days are coming when I shall sow Israel and Judah with the seed of man and the seed of livestock. As I inflicted disasters upon them, now I shall watch over them to build and to plant.
    Ezekiel 36:8-12 Now you: Land of Israel, grow your plants and bear fruit for the homecoming of My people is near. The whole House of Israel will come, very many people and you will be their possession.
    Psalm 147:2-3 The Lord gathers the scattered Israelites, He heals their broken spirit and binds their wounds. He rebuilds Jerusalem.
    Joel 3:18 When that Day comes the Land will be well watered and productive.
    Isaiah 32:15-20 The Spirit from on high will come upon the people, then the Land will become a well watered beautiful garden; a tranquil country, its people living in peace and security.
    Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present times are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us.
    Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.
    Ref: REB. Some verses condensed
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Philip, you should apologize to John S for that rude and truly un-Christian comment. You have judged him. Who are you to do that?
    What a ridiculous statement: I'll watch from heaven. Unbelievably pretentious!
    But I do like the idea of marking off years on a colander, may be enough holes to do months as well!
     
  9. Isaiah Jeremiah

    Isaiah Jeremiah New Member

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    We're not there yet. The Lord's Day of Wrath is at the second half of the tribulation, but you're on the right track.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2014
  10. John S

    John S I'm Here - For Now

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    keras - Thank You - but not necessary.
    People don't want to hear that they aren't special. Far too many of them would prefer to hear the fairy tale that they are going to be whisked away from harm when, in fact, Jesus said that "MANY will be deceived" and even the Elect would be deceived if that were possible.
    By "many', He wasn't talking about atheists, Muslims, or members of any other religion. He was talking about HIS followers.
    If MILLIONS of people suddenly vanished, WHO would be deceived? - NO ONE.
     
  11. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    Millions are deceived every day of their lives.

    Depends on what your flawed logic considers deceived. Scripture asserts they will be decieved for their not loving the truth, the very assertion you would make against someone's love of the Truth.

    Look at how an entire nation stood by knowingly as their "Leader," Hitler led people, not only all around them, but in nearby countries to massive genocide daily.

    Daily, we walk past the homeless, denying our being bothered by our not doing nothing about it.

    And that is matters of the flesh - you're going to compare that realm with the supernatural deception that Scripture is talking about. I suggest you reread Scripture.

    Your logic is flawed. Because you are apllying your logic over "Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture?"
     
  12. John S

    John S I'm Here - For Now

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    YES - Many people were deceived by Hitler and many more will be deceived by the antichrist.
    "So and so is NOT the antichrist because I am still here".
    "So and so is NOT the antichrist because God PROMISED us that we would be gone when he arrived".
    "Therefore, so and so is NOT the antichrist".

    My logic is flawless. It is the people who believe that they are "special" whose logic is flawed.
     
  13. bibletruth469

    bibletruth469 Joyful

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    The rapture is not a fairy tale. It is what the scripture teaches. This age will end, and God will then direct His focus back on Israel . I believe that it will happen pre trib, before the tribulation period. It is not like we consider ourselves as special . No one is without Jesus. Yes, millions are deceived, but God will bring many people to salvation during the tribulation . Once the rapture happens, some will realize that they were left behind and will trust In the saving work of Christ. Others will still be deceived and will follow the antichrist.

    Again, the church will be with Christ and the rest of those who are not believers will have to endure the 7 year tribulation .
     
  14. PhillipLaSpino

    PhillipLaSpino Achieve; don’t plunder!

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    A post tribulation believer once said, “I am a post tribber, thank God!” But he added, “I am a post-tribulation believer all day long, but when I go to bed, I become a pre-tribulation believer!”

    Here is my take on this topic:

    Keras, every verse you quoted was written by a Jewish prophet to the Jews. They concern the restoration of the Jews to the Promised Land. Those have absolutely nothing to do with the body of Christ.

    John posted his comments as if he is the guru of end time prophesy, so sure of himself. I don't like it when anyone attempts to take away another’s hope, especially young Christians who are vulnerable to deception.

    A Christian's hope is first to be raised with an incorruptible body, and in the blink of an eye to be RAPTURED, to be caught away, I Thes. 4:16-17 by our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Obviously John expects to remain here when the Tribulation begins, and I have no problem with that. If it’s OK with him, it’s fine with me! And because of that belief one of three things is going to happen to him. He will be tortured and put in jail eating nothing but bread and water for 7 years; he will be beheaded; or he will have to flee into the wilderness. What wilderness, I have no idea!

    That pretty much summarizes your false post-tribulation non-sense! I would have an honest debate with any of you Post tribbers, but you’re all to close minded; you have your own Bibles, made up your own dictionaries, and trust with your life the teachers you study under. As for me, I trust the Holy Spirit and that which he brings to my table. That’s my take on this very, vey important subject.

    Post-tribbers haven’t learned the most basic of truths. God’s promises to the Jews are not the promises made to the church, as in you quoted all O.T. verses. You think Daniel’s 70th week is finished; that God is done with the Jews; that the church is spiritual Israel; all summarized in the idea the pre-tribulation rapture of the body of Christ is some sort of hoax.

    Phil
     
  15. Manasseh_

    Manasseh_ not the evil king Manasseh

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    simply look at the very few verses that pretribbers always use as "proof text" for this false doctrine and you'll always notice a simple fact, there is never an emphatic statement or promise of a pretribulation gathering of saints........1Thess 4 , one of their favorite is a prime example............read the whole chapter and you notice that Paul doesn't even mention tribulation much less a before or after gathering........the simple fact is every single verse that pretrib makes use of is actually mis-used because they ASSUME(inject) this false doctrine into the text........and the same method is used for every other verse used by the pretrib camp, they have to do this because of the simple fact that there isn't one single verse they can make use of that does directly state Christ returns before tribulation to gather his saints, ........................not one
     
  16. bibletruth469

    bibletruth469 Joyful

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    Where are the post trib verses found in the scripture ? You didn't list any in the above post.. 1 thess 4:16-18 points us to the rapture itself, not its timing( pre, mid, or post trib).
     
  17. Manasseh_

    Manasseh_ not the evil king Manasseh

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    Christ himself said in Matt 24's prophecy that he comes at a specific time , after tribulation , then gathers his elect, that's a prophecy, a promise and a direct statement on when he will gather the elect............pretrib has no scripture such as this and others that state when he comes, again you have to assume this false doctrine into any verse used by pretrib, can't start with a doctrine then attempt to locate scripture to support it, you have to go to scripture first to find the truth, a good example are the Bereans who did as such
     
  18. Lollerskates

    Lollerskates Junior Member

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    Exactly. Tribulation is here, and has been here since Christ was resurrected to life. Even He said (paraphrase,) "if they do this to me, and you follow me, then they will do it to you." It, being persecution. We may not be nailed to crosses, maybe we will, but we aren't excluded from persecution. Daniel 11 makes this clear; tried by fire, spoil, captivity, and sword. Our hope isn't I surviving in this world; it is really in resurrection, and Christ. So, a rapture to save us from the bad times seems even counterproductive to what God does anyway.

    Noah wasn't saved from the end of the world; he was a witness, and protected.

    The slaves-turned-Isr Hebrews weren't rapture from Egypt (and the world's) demise; they were witnesses, and protected.

    We won't be raptured from this "end of the world (and so we know it,) we will be witnesses, and protected - those of us not tried. There are martyrs to this day dying for their faith, imprisoned, beheaded, etc. As said, they are no better than any other human - saint or not. Only Christ can boast (yet, He doesnt.) He is really the only one that was worthy to escape wrath, yet God poured His full portion on Him. The kicker, I suppose, is to be like Christ so that perhaps you will be counted worthy of escaping.

    There will be saints alive when Christ comes back - resurrected to perfection after the dead.
     
  19. Bro in Christ

    Bro in Christ Newbie

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    we all believe in the bible here ? correct ?

    if the scripture does not line up to our thinking maybe our theology is a little bit missing the mark where Christ wants us to be.....

    1 cor 15 is the resurrection chapter in the bible !


    I will start with some context ...

    1 cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die[at different times], even so in Christ shall all be made alive. How and when are we made alive ?

    1 cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: #1 Christ the firstfruits [firstfruits is plural! lets define it with scripture romans 8:23 states that we have the firstfruits of the spirit... which is very important Rev 4-5 which is before any judgements are poured out on earth ; afterward they that are Christ's at his[what coming? ...2nd! and to where ?on earth! Matt 25:33 sheep and goat judgement ] coming.



    1 cor 15:24 Then cometh the end[Rev 20:11-15 judgement of the dead] , when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God[2 peter 3:10-12 ] , even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power

    We can go to Heb 11 also to show another reason for a better salvation than all these people listed
     
  20. PhillipLaSpino

    PhillipLaSpino Achieve; don’t plunder!

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    Many can argue causes; a fool will argue with a petty mouth and bitter words because his cause is weak; a wise man will decide a cause because he can communicate without irony or sarcasm.

    Bibletruth wrote, "simply look at the very few verses that pretribbers always use as "proof text" for this false doctrine and you'll always notice a simple fact, there is never an emphatic statement or promise of a pretribulation gathering of saints...1Thess 4 , one of their favorite is a prime example....read the whole chapter and you notice that Paul doesn't even mention tribulation much less a before or after gathering.
    ........the simple fact is every single verse that pretrib makes use of is actually mis-used because they ASSUME(inject) this false doctrine into the text."

    Phil replies, obviously you're a closed minded person. Why do I say this, because of the words you have injected into your comments, "Mis-used; assume; false doctrine." You must be that person that knows everything about this subject, so you have closed the door to any reasonable discussion.

    But let me say this; the rapture of the church had been kept secret, a mystery kept in God until he revealed it to Paul, 1 Cor. written in 56 A.D. and 1 Thes. in 52 A.D. some 25 years after the Lord was taken up.

    Even the apostles had no knowledge of the "catching away of the body of Christ." Why would Paul mention tribulation to the church, the bride of Chist will not be involved in it.

    The tribulation is for the Jews, it will conclude the 70th week of the curse God put on the Jews in Dan.9:24, God said to Daniel,

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon THY (your) people (the Jews, not the church) and upon the Holy city (Jerusalem) to FINISH the transgression."

    The Christian Church never transgressed against God, it was the Jews. Of course you must know all this because you give me the impression you know everything there is to know about the subject.

    No disrespect meant,
    Phil
     
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