Rapture Before Wrath

[BABerean2]

That's not a rapture. You even said so in your second sentence.

Calling it a rapture by using the resurrection of the two witness as your support is just.........false.

Do you know the difference between a rapture and a resurrection?




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Thank you Brother for your input.

Again one of us must be confused.

Christ was resurrected before His ascension in the book of Acts.

You must be looking for the disappearance seen in the Left Behind movies, where people just vanish instantly and no one seems to know what happened to them. I hope you do realize Tim LaHaye's version is a work of fiction.

"The text plainly says they are killed, they are resurrected, and they ascend into a cloud while their enemies watch."

Lazarus was resurrected by Christ. Since that time he died. One day he will be resurrected again and will then ascend into the clouds to meet Christ.

The dead in Christ will be resurrected before their rapture into the clouds to meet Christ.

The question is... Do you know the difference between a resurrection and a rapture?

 

[BABerean2]

Here's a message written to you from BW taken from the link I gave you off of post #182.



http://www.christianforums.com/t7810638-19/

And I myself have shown you several external links proving the rapture was taught prior to Darby dating back to the first century Churches where the teachings of the "catching away" or "caught up" before God's wrath by the early church fathers.



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Even though Biblewriter and I have had some vigorous debates, he avoided the personal attacks that some are very fond of. On one occasion I was attacked in a manner that questioned my salvation. It was my Brother Biblewriter who came to my defense. He knew where to draw the line between debate and personal attacks.

I miss his wisdom on this forum and I pray for his recovery. I also acknowledge the fact that I have learned from our discussion.


He is also a tremendous scholar. He has forgotten more about the Bible than some will ever know. He would most certainly be able to explain to you who Charles Spurgeon was.

Others on this forum would do well to follow his example.

.............................................................................................

No matter how many times it is repeated, the information about the views of the early Church fathers that came from Grant Jeffrey, will never be the truth. This information has been copied and pasted all over the Web. Most of those do not contain a source. Therefore, it has no point of reference that can be used to confirm it. It confirms the old saying that a lie can travel half way around the world before the truth gets it's shoes on.

Pastor Tim Warner shows what the early Church fathers actually said and then shows the parts cut out by Grant Jeffrey in an attempt to promote the pretrib doctrine. It contains the sources of the original writings of the early Church fathers which can be found in the libraries of well known seminaries.

.

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

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[NannaNae]

so what would a day be called that had many events on it ?
what would the prophets call that day ? if say there was a turmoil in the heavens and a resurrection and the sun is gone and moon is gone and stars are falling, there is a resurrection and a Rapture like event that is kind of hidden in the confusion.. and they are all going on at the same exact time? the harvesters harvesting and creation is crumbling? entities are coming and stars are falling and confusion reigns!

what should that be called in your theologies ?

do you all want to call this a rapture ? or a resurrection of the dead , Ezekials temple is coming and what would a day like that be called ? and it isn't him .. there is either 7 year or 3 1/2 left , I can't even guess how much is left , and neither could anyone else guess where I went with certainty... He isn't coming then. that day is not his coming.



so if you are an old testament or new testament apostle or prophet, what do do you call such days ? how do you even go about describing it ? or even try to describe just one part of it ?

what do you call that event?

what if there is so many events happening at the very same moments ? just like there is so many pictures during the feast of tabernacles. everything is happening at the same time.. what do you call a day like no other day in your theologies ? and it isn't HIS day! the stars are falling and it isn't in coming angels.. it isn't his day.. where does that fit in your theology ?

well what ever it is you want to call a day that looks like that day , a day like no other day has been , and it isn't his coming.. we ain't ready for it ! none of us are ready for it

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 268:

THERE IS NO RAPTURE AT THE 7TH TRUMPET!

That's right.

For regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It's like if someone said: "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

iamlamad said in post 268:

God's will is that all believers really and truly believe Luke 21:36 and are found worthy to be raptured before the 70th week begins.

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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iamlamad said in post 269:

Jesus went to prepare mansions for us in heaven, and will come and take us to those mansions at the rapture.

Note that there is no pre-tribulation idea in John 14:3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation rapture view can't claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

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iamlamad said in post 272:

This prophecy will be fulfilled at the first trumpet . . .

Note that Joel 1:18-20 is a different event than the first trumpet of the future tribulation (Revelation 8:7). For the latter won't include all the trees being burnt up (Joel 1:19b), or the rivers of waters being dried up (Joel 1:20). Instead, at the time of the first trumpet, only 1/3 of the trees will be burnt up (Revelation 8:7). And the rivers of waters won't be affected until the 3rd trumpet, which won't dry any of them up, but instead will make only 1/3 of them poisonous (Revelation 8:10-11).

Joel 1:18-20 could refer to an ancient, severe drought, and resulting wildfires, which affected the Israelites in their land.

Similarly, the subsequent verses, Joel 2:1-27, can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31), which won't start until sometime after (as in only a few years after) the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:31) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Joel 2:1 referring only to Zion, the holy mountain, and to the land, can mean that it is referring only to a localized day of the Lord which affected only the ancient Israelites on their land. Joel 2:2 can refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel. Just as literal ants can be referred to as "a people" (Hebrew: "am": H5971) (Proverbs 30:25), so a huge cloud of devouring locusts can be referred to poetically as "a great people (H5971) and a strong" (Joel 2:2). Joel 2:3b describes the effects of a locust invasion, which can be poetically expressed as being like a devouring fire (Joel 2:3a). Joel 2:4 can describe locusts running along the ground as looking like little horses. Joel 2:5 can poetically describe locusts leaping high, and devouring every plant down even to its stubble. "A strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands", i.e. distributed into ranks (Hebrew: "chatsats": H2686) (Proverbs 30:27).

Joel 2:6 can poetically describe the immense grief felt by the ancient Israelites as they witnessed all their crops being devoured by the locust swarm. Joel 2:7 can describe locusts running along the ground and climbing up walls. "They shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a literal locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Proverbs 30:27). Joel 2:8 can refer to the locusts in the swarm not attacking each other, and to how useless a sword was in fighting against them. Because locusts are small and have an exoskeleton, they can just bounce off a swinging sword as they fly along. Joel 2:9 can refer to locusts running along the ground through a city, climbing up onto the walls of buildings and into windows looking for food anywhere they can.

Joel 2:10 can be poetic hyperbole to express how terrible the locust swarm was to the land of Israel, and how the swarm was so vast that it darkened the skies of Israel completely. The original Hebrew word (erets: H0776) translated as "the earth" (Joel 2:10) can refer to only a local area of land (e.g. Genesis 2:11,13), like how, for example, our word "earthquake" today can refer to only a local event. Joel 2:11 shows that the literal locust swarm wasn't from Satan, fallen angels, or evil nephilim, but was considered by God to be his own "army", as it were (Joel 2:25). Joel 2:20 can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel, and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench. Joel 2:25 shows that it was literal locusts and other plant-destroying insects which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you".

Joel 2:28-29 shows that the locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 began to happen sometime "afterward", sometime after the locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 began to happen at the Acts 2 day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-18).

 

[Bible2]

BABerean2 said in post 274:

Rev 11:11

Note that the future raising of the 2 witnesses' physical bodies from the dead (Revelation 11:11) won't occur at the church's physical resurrection into immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), but will be like, for example, the past resuscitation of the physical bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). And the future, physical ascension of the 2 witnesses into heaven (Revelation 11:12) won't occur at the church's physical rapture at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but will be like, for example, the past ascension of the physical bodies of Enoch and Elijah into heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

For the 2 witnesses' physical resuscitation and ascension will occur at one point during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, as part of its 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13), before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15). And then out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage (Revelation 16). But the church's physical resurrection into immortality and its being raptured (gathered together to Jesus) won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), which won't occur until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), after the 7th vial has been completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the 2 witnesses, like Enoch and Elijah did (and also like the apostles Paul and John each did, temporarily, at one point during their lifetime: 2 Corinthians 12:2,7, Revelation 4:1-2), will ascend all the way into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 11:12). But the church will be raptured only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

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BABerean2 said in post 282:

You must be looking for the disappearance seen in the Left Behind movies, where people just vanish instantly and no one seems to know what happened to them. I hope you do realize Tim LaHaye's version is a work of fiction.

That's right.

Nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that these passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

 

[Bible2]

Riberra quoted in post 279:

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Note that Luke 21:18 doesn't require physical protection. For Jesus had just said "some of you shall they cause to be put to death" (Luke 21:16). So Luke 21:18 can include the hairs of martyred Christians (of all times), which won't perish in the sense that even their hairs will be resurrected into immortality when their bodies are resurrected into immortal flesh at Jesus' 2nd coming, just as Jesus' body was resurrected into immortal flesh on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Similarly, if Luke 10:19 refers to physical protection, then Luke 10:19 could have applied only to the 70 (Luke 10:17). If Luke 10:19 applies to the entire church, then it means that the power of Satan can't hurt obedient believers spiritually. For Satan can hurt and even kill obedient believers physically (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Obedient believers overcome Satan spiritually even when they are physically killed by him (Revelation 12:11). They are more than conquerors spiritually even when they are physically led like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36-37). For death is a gain for obedient believers, as it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). So obedient believers need have no fear of death (Hebrews 2:15).

And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all the obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15). And they will all be resurrected into immortal physical bodies at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will all then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). And sometime after that, they will all live forever on a new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). So no matter what evil forces have done to obedient believers physically in the past, or are doing to them physically now, or in the future, such as during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), all obedient believers of all times will ultimately have the victory (1 Corinthians 15:57; 1 John 5:4, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 15:2).

Riberra quoted a website in post 279:

Satan, as antichrist, will be given power from God to deceive most of the world . . .

Note that Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) isn't the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), but the one who will empower the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), and who will be worshiped along with the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire over 1,000 years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20 to 20:10). The Antichrist and Satan are shown to be separate persons also in Revelation 16:13. But Satan could spiritually enter the man who is the Antichrist, just as Satan spiritually entered Judas (Luke 22:3).

Riberra quoted a website in post 279:

I would imagine that some who thought that they were really worshiping Jesus Christ begin to get a sick feeling in the pit of their stomachs as they reason within themselves that the True Christ would never do this.

Note that when Satan (Lucifer, the dragon) is cast down to the earth permanently at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 12:9,12), he won't claim to be "Jesus" Christ, just as the separate Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast, the man of sin: 2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) won't claim that Lucifer (or claim that he, the Antichrist) is "Jesus" Christ. For "anti"-Christ means someone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

 

[TPeterY]

Thank you Brother for your input.

Anytime bud. Someone had to nip it in the butt before you continue preaching this type of doctrine.

"Once again, the rapture does not happen at the death of the two witnesses, they just get resurrected. This is not the rapture."

You might not believe this but I'm not doing this for any other reason than to make sure those newer Christians that are not as knowledgeable of bible prophecy understand what the bible said and not someone's interpretation.

Believe me, it's no fun arguing with you regularly.

This is a huge public website and you never know how many people come here regularly looking to learn about the end-times. You need to take place more serious.

Again one of us must be confused.

Christ was resurrected before His ascension in the book of Acts.

You must be looking for the disappearance seen in the Left Behind movies, where people just vanish instantly and no one seems to know what happened to them. I hope you do realize Tim LaHaye's version is a work of fiction.

"The text plainly says they are killed, they are resurrected, and they ascend into a cloud while their enemies watch."

Lazarus was resurrected by Christ. Since that time he died. One day he will be resurrected again and will then ascend into the clouds to meet Christ.

The dead in Christ will be resurrected before their rapture into the clouds to meet Christ.

The question is... Do you know the difference between a resurrection and a rapture?

Now let me ask you this question. "Why are you suddenly preaching the rapture happening at the death of the two witnesses?"

You've been telling everyone that it happens at Matthew 24:29-31, which is at the end of the tribulation. Why the huge, sudden change?

It's like you follow two Jesus. One here, one there.

Matthew 24:23 (NKJV)
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.

No matter how many times it is repeated, the information about the views of the early Church fathers that came from Grant Jeffrey, will never be the truth. This information has been copied and pasted all over the Web. Most of those do not contain a source. Therefore, it has no point of reference that can be used to confirm it. It confirms the old saying that a lie can travel half way around the world before the truth gets it's shoes on.

Pastor Tim Warner shows what the early Church fathers actually said and then shows the parts cut out by Grant Jeffrey in an attempt to promote the pretrib doctrine. It contains the sources of the original writings of the early Church fathers which can be found in the libraries of well known seminaries.

.

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Why do you keep preaching to us about these people, especially Tim Warner who's a huge advocates against the Blessed Hope of the Church.

All he does is debate non-scriptural arguments trying to discredit dispensationalism. But his arguments fall apart when having debate over scriptures from the bible. This tells us all how little he knows about bible prophecy and having to revert to secondary non-biblical sources as his form of argument.

Well if we can't win in a debate, let's just discredit it by other means! Does this seem familiar?

"With volumes of information his views are argued well, but scholars contend he must first discredit scriptures that indicate there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. That, in turn, discredits his theories which do not hold up under close scrutiny."

Who's Who in Bible Prophecy



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[TPeterY]

No ,i have underlined that part to show that Jesus was addressing these words specifically to the apostles who were hoping to see Jesus second advent during their lifetime .

Riberra, Christ is almost always talking to His disciples in the bible. That does not mean prophecy is about them.

All depend of your definition of -one of the days of the Son of man.-
My interpretation is that one of the day was Jesus First Advent
The other day will be Jesus Second Advent.
Do you agree with that? if not tell us what is your interpretation.

I already explained it four times, as easy to understand as it could get. You're not getting a fifth.

No such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture.

The second half of the tribulation will be shortened in perfect agreement with the Bible.

Source:
Link
A Biblical chronology of end-time events


A Biblical chronology of end-time events:Back to list at top of page
Here are the events of the last five months immediately prior to the Second Advent of Jesus Christ that will happen exactly as prophesied in God's Word. We will pick it up at the instructions from Jesus Christ to those who know the truth about the antichrist and are being persecuted during the final days by satan (antichrist) and the deceived ones who are doing his handy work Albeit, most of them, will be doing it in ignorance:

Luke 12:8-12(Christ speaking)8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say. (KJV)
​

Verses {8-10} above pertain God's Elect in the end times (whom you will notice are on earth, not drifting in some Rapture cloud), these Elect will be called upon to deny the true Jesus in the trials that the antichrist shall hold (Jesus will be denied in that the people will be worshipping the false christ). In verse{11} it is speaking of the events at the end of times during satan's five month reign as antichrist. It is the Elect of God being delivered up to the Synagogue of satan for a witness against him before the world. Sadly, many of those who have been mislead with a Rapture doctrine (among others) will actually cause God's Elect to be delivered up to death, that is to say, deliver them up to satan (antichrist) whom is death. 'Death' is simply one of satan's many many names:

Heb 2:14
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. (KJV)
​

They will do it not because they are evil, they really do not know what they do, but the antichrist has deceived them. He (antichrist) will tell them something like: "Let's save more of the people before I bring the Rapture about, bring them to me that do not believe that I am the Messiah from God and I will show them signs and wonders, and in mercy I shall convert their hearts to the truth." But in reality, they are delivered up death - satan. And deceived Christians (Rapturists, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses...) as well as Muslims, Buddhists, Jews... shall betray the 'true to Christ' Christians (God's Elect) to death. But God Himself will protect His Elect:

Luke 21:12-19 (speaking to God's Elect)
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls. (KJV)
​

A Chronology:
A chronology of events leading up to end of the age:

Satan, as antichrist, will be given power from God to deceive most of the world*1. But it is written that some will stand against satan and not bow a knee to the antichrist*2. These are known as the Election Of Grace, spoken of as the 7000*3.Satan, by means identified in scripture, will locate and seize God's Election, who are men and women who reject satan as the false christ and refuse to bow to him*4. Satan will deliver some of these Elect up to 'Sanhedrins' (synagogues and councils) to attempt to "convert" them and make them worship the antichrist as True Messiah*5. But they will not. In fact it is through the Elect's testimony at these councils (that will no doubt be carried live on satellite, to the whole world), that the 144,000, known as the "Sealed Of Israel", written of Scripture*6, will become aware of the true identity of the antichrist and resist, refusing to worship him as True Messiah.

Scriptural documentation for above points:
​

1. {Lk 21:12-15}, {Rev 9:1-11}, {Mk 24:4-15}.
2. {Mk 13:9-11}, {Mt 24:9-13}, {Lk 21:12-15}, {Dan 11:44}.
3. {1st King 19:18}, {Rom 11:1-5}.
4. {Lk 21:16}, {Mk 13:12}, {Mt 24:10}.
5. {LK 12:11}, {Mk 13:9}, {Mt 24:9}.
6. {Rev 7:1-10}.

At this point, the end is very near. The "Two Witnesses", who have been sent earlier from God to lead His Elect in resisting the antichrist, and whom are spoken of in{Rev 11:3-19; below } are murdered by antichrist and his misguided followers. Their dead bodies are left to rot in the street in public view.
This is done by the religious community at the time, the one-world religion; And don't think it can't happen, for have you forgotten the reformation and the millions of people burnt as heretics by the Catholic Church who then confiscated their land and belongings? See: The darkest period of the Papacy. It is also eerily reminiscent of the religious community that called for Christ's crucifixion: "...they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him." {John 19:6}:

Rev 11:3-19
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
​

At this point, I would imagine that some who thought that they were really worshiping Jesus Christ begin to get a sick feeling in the pit of their stomachs as they reason within themselves that the True Christ would never do this. They think back to the true Word of God and know that they were warned of this in the Bible, but they had rejected God's True Word instead opting to follow "feel good" doctrines of men. But of course if they were to try to back out now they themselves would be murdered by mob rule, as antichrist has by now stirred the masses into a frenzy. Yes, murdered by the very "Christian Brothers" that had deceived them in the first place. It now sets in: They have been bought and paid for, they have been marked by the beast, and they thought they were such good little Christians; they should have listened to God's Word not the words of men. Put this in the back of your mind and remember this for all you are worth, it still at this time is not to late to repent. If you sadly find yourself like the one above, repent immediately for the time is by now very short!

Deut 4:29-31
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. (KJV)
​

Three and a half days later, as prophesied in the Bible, in full view of the whole world (no doubt carried live to the world by live real-time satellite broadcast), God audibly calls the Two Witnesses back to life and they rise up into Heaven in the sight of men. We are now within one literal hour of Jesus Christ's return, commonly known as the Second Advent.

I disagree, here's my source. You say there's no Pre-Trib rapture but your link said there's no rapture period. I'm familiar with that link you keep plastering on this forum about a billion times by now, and also seen you twisting it's argument to fit your argument. I'll be happy to copy and paste an article from that link where they teach against the rapture as a whole.

EDIT: Actually I went back, bold-faced and highlighted in red your website's real opinion about the rapture.

And here's my source of information.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13) But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.

If you wanna disprove the rapture or the catching away of the church theory, prove it with scriptures. Otherwise, your website will always fall apart against the bible.

 

[BABerean2]

[/color]

Anytime bud. Someone had to nip it in the butt before you continue preaching this type of doctrine.

"Once again, the rapture does not happen at the death of the two witnesses, they just get resurrected. This is not the rapture."

You might not believe this but I'm not doing this for any other reason than to make sure those newer Christians that are not as knowledgeable of bible prophecy understand what the bible said and not someone's interpretation.

Believe me, it's no fun arguing with you regularly.

This is a huge public website and you never know how many people come here regularly looking to learn about the end-times. You need to take place more serious.



Now let me ask you this question. "Why are you suddenly preaching the rapture happening at the death of the two witnesses?"

You've been telling everyone that it happens at Matthew 24:29-31, which is at the end of the tribulation. Why the huge, sudden change?

It's like you follow two Jesus. One here, one there.

Matthew 24:23 (NKJV)
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.



Why do you keep preaching to us about these people, especially Tim Warner who's a huge advocates against the Blessed Hope of the Church.

All he does is debate non-scriptural arguments trying to discredit dispensationalism. But his arguments fall apart when having debate over scriptures from the bible. This tells us all how little he knows about bible prophecy and having to revert to secondary non-biblical sources as his form of argument.

Well if we can't win in a debate, let's just discredit it by other means! Does this seem familiar?

"With volumes of information his views are argued well, but scholars contend he must first discredit scriptures that indicate there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. That, in turn, discredits his theories which do not hold up under close scrutiny."

Who's Who in Bible Prophecy



.

"Now let me ask you this question. "Why are you suddenly preaching the rapture happening at the death of the two witnesses?""

Your implication within the question seems to imply that I am suddenly changing my position on the 7th trumpet rapture.

If you will go back and check my other posts, you will find the same thing.

Based on God's Word, the rapture event occurs at the last trumpet, which is the 7th trumpet. This also brings the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation to a close when Christ returns in flaming fire taking vengeance on the ungodly.

Since this is the time of the rapture, it is perfectly logical that the two witnesses would be raptured at the same time.

If we use scripture to define scripture, we may also find that the two witnesses are symbols of the Church. Consider the verses below.


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The candlesticks are a symbol of the churches, when we use scripture to define scripture.

The olive tree is a symbol of Israel in the Old Testament.

Therefore, it is possible that the two witnesses are in reality a symbol of the Church and a symbol of the grafting of the gentile and Jewish Christians into faithful Israel. This is not my idea. Some of the earlier commentators agreed with this interpretation. It can be proven that there are symbols throughout the book of Revelation. Sometimes it becomes very difficult to determine what is to be taken symbolically and what is to be taken literally.

Based on the above, the rapture of the two witnesses at the 7th trumpet would of course be logical. However, it does differ from the version seen within the "Left Behind" movies, so it will be automatically rejected by most pretribbers.

...............................................................

Your link to prophecy teachers may be just a little one sided. If you will notice there is a + beside the names of all of the pretrib teachers and an X beside the names of most of those who have another viewpoint.


The quotation cited below is a one-sided hatchet job on Pastor Tim Warner.


"Founder of The Pristine Faith Restoration Society, a group of dedicated Christians "determined to research and promote the beliefs and practices of pristine Christianity." He is a well-studied post-tribulationist, and argues for the post-tribulation rapture position. He is a well-known debater against the pre-tribulation rapture position (which he calls a "myth"), is an author, and is head of The Post-Trib Research Center and answersinrevelation.org. With volumes of information his views are argued well, but scholars contend he must first discredit scriptures that indicate there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. That, in turn, discredits his theories which do not hold up under close scrutiny. On a positive note, he argues against preterism."


It is obvious that this author, like you, is upset with Pastor Warner for exposing the origins of the pretrib doctrine and Dispensationalism. His article on the lies told by Grant Jeffrey have also been regarded with anger by those of your position.

Pastor Warner's research is fully capable of defending itself, because he lists the sources used within the article. This allows those seeking the truth to find those sources within the libraries of well known seminaries, if they so desire.

I would simply ask that those who are seeking the truth go to Pastor Warner's site and verify the information for themselves. The truth is always sought by those who are truly seeking it, and always avoided by those who are desperately attempting to validate their unscriptural doctrine.


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

 

[iamlamad]

The two witnesses are clearly raptured at the time of the 7th trumpet.

This is not truth at all, but false teaching. I will agree the resurrection of the two witnesses is WRITTEN in close proximity to the sounding of the 7th trumpet, but you MISS the intent of the Author. Those verses, 11:4-13 are written as a parenthesis and are no in John's chronology, so this resurrection certainly does not happen near the 7th trumpet.

THE TRUTH is, the two witnesses SHOW UP and begin testifying 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet will sound and mark the time of the abomination on earth. They will testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial. They will lay dead those 3 1/2 days and will be resurrected AT the 7th vial when ALL the rest of the Old Testament saints rise.

Therefore, your theory presented here is miles off from truth and does not stand up to scriptural truth.

The text plainly says they are killed, they are resurrected, and they ascend into a cloud while their enemies watch.

Some on this forum may try to tell you this is not a rapture.

However, the text speaks the truth of God's Word.

It is a resurrection, then a rapture. But it is CERTAINLY NOT Paul's rapture.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

If you will notice, there is a great earthquake at the 7th vial. It is the VERY SAME earthquake that happens when the two witnesses rise, because THEY RISE AT THE 7th VIAL.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The parenthesis (11:4 - 11_13) is now over, and John is back to true chronology.

1) 11:1-2 The man of sin enters Jerusalem with his armies just before the 7th trumpet event. He must first ARRIVE in Jerusalem to enter the temple in Jerusalem. It is VERY likely 3 1/2 days before the abomination event when he will enter the temple and declare he is God. The city will be trampled for 42 months.

2) the two witnesses arrive (without a doubt because the man of sin has arrived) just 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of the week when the 7th trumpet will sound. They begin testifying. Their 1260 days will PARALLEL the 42 months of trampling the city.

3) the man of sin enters the temple and the daily sacrifices CEASE. It is the abomination. The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to MARK this event on earth. (The two witnesses are still testifying.)

4) those living in Judea FLEE to the mountains. (12:6) Their 1260 days will parallel the days of testifying and the months of trampling (The two witnesses are still testifying.)

5) Michael goes to war with Satan. (The two witnesses are still testifying.)

6) the woman who fled will be protected for 3 1/2 years. (The two witnesses are still testifying.)

7) the man of sin gets possessed by Satan and turns into the BEAST of REvelation 13. (The two witnesses are still testifying.)

8) The Beast is given 42 months of authority. (The two witnesses are still testifying.) His 42 months begin slightly after the 42 months of trampling, and Revelation shows he is not captured until AFTER the 7th vial.

9) the events of chapter 14 take place. (the mark has not yet been established) (The two witnesses are still testifying.)

10) The false prophet has shown up, the image has been erected and set up in the temple, and the days of great tribulation have begun. (The two witnesses are still testifying.)

11) finally God has had enough and begins to pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. (The two witnesses are still testifying.)

12) Finally, 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the 70th week, the Beast kills the two witnesses. Their 1260 days of testifying have finished. (The two witnesses are dead.)

13) 3 1/2 days later, the two witness rise, at the 7th vial. It is the time ALL the Old Testament saints rise (on the last day) and they rise WITH all the rest. The 7th vial ENDS the 70th week.

This is the TRUE chronology of Revelation. Of course I left out some events, but I just took the highlights so anyone could follow.

LAMAD

 

[Riberra]

Riberra, Christ is almost always talking to His disciples in the bible. That does not mean prophecy is about them.

Luke 17:22
And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

That verse is not even about prophecy .It is Jesus saying to his disciples that they will desire to see His Second Coming during their lifetime but they will not see it.

I already explained it four times, as easy to understand as it could get. You're not getting a fifth.

What you have said is that this verse is the proof that there is more than One Coming of Jesus YET TO COME .One to rapture His Church (Bride)BEFORE the Great Tribulation and the other when he return with His Church (Wife)after the Great Tribulation.

Preaching that there is more than one Coming of Jesus yet to come is against Scripture.
That is like negate that Jesus First Advent was 2,000 years ago...

The Bible warn us about this:

Galatians 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

I disagree, here's my source. You say there's no Pre-Trib rapture but your link said there's no rapture period. I'm familiar with that link you keep plastering on this forum about a billion times by now, and also seen you twisting it's argument to fit your argument. I'll be happy to copy and paste an article from that link where they teach against the rapture as a whole.

EDIT: Actually I went back, bold-faced and highlighted in red your website's real opinion about the rapture.

And here's my source of information.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13) But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.

If you wanna disprove the rapture or the catching away of the church theory, prove it with scriptures. Otherwise, your website will always fall apart against the bible.

What the website say is that the gathering together in the clouds (rapture) will happen at Jesus Second Coming -Near The END- of the great tribulation...
You have surely not read what they say about about the fundamental error in all the different Rapture scenarios...
See this link for detailed explanation.
The Rapture according to 'Them'

The fundamental error in all the 'Rapture' scenarios is that they all, in one fashion or another, believe that at some point in time only a portion of the people will be removed.

First of all, they misunderstand the Bible when it says that "all will be changed" to read "will be Raptured' The change is a change of body, it is us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. and this happens to ALL people on the earth at Christ's coming AT THE SAME TIME! It is the consummation of the age, which is the beginning of the Millennium. Read the below Scripture carefully and put out of your mind all that false 'Rapture' stuff. The below Scripture speaks of us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. Those who are asleep (dead) have already changed into their spiritual body at the moment of their individual deaths. Their flesh corpse is the only thing in the grave. But those who shall still be living when Christ returns must also go into their spiritual bodies, but the are changed without actually dying a flesh death, they just discard these flesh 'Tabernacles' and the spiritual man emerges. For the in the Millennium we are no longer in our flesh bodies, but rather, we are in our spiritual bodies.

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)
​

 

[Danoh]

Luke 17:24 is a reference to their wanting to see just one of those of the Son of man's days [David's throned restored] which He had come to confirm: as a confirmation of the truth, or validity, of the Father's promise.

But first, He would suffer many things, and then they would as well, as they, are part of that nation's COLLECTIVE Covenant with God as to His wrath, Daniel 9, Mal. 3; Mal. 4; Mtt. 3; Mtt. 10; Lk. 1,2; Lk. 24.

 

[shturt678s]

Lk.17:24 pictures Jesus Coming with the consummation of the kingdom, ie, instantaneously visible over the whole earth just as a lightning flash lightnings out of one part of heaven and shines to the other part and lights up the entire sky sort of thing.

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Bible2]

TPeterY quoted a website in post 288:

. . . he must first discredit scriptures that indicate there will be a pre-tribulation rapture.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

--

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

[n2thelight]

TPeterY quoted a website in post 288:

. . . he must first discredit scriptures that indicate there will be a pre-tribulation rapture.

There are none.....What part of AFTER don't y'all get??

 

[TPeterY]

Luke 17:22
And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

That verse is not even about prophecy .It is Jesus saying to his disciples that they will desire to see His Second Coming during their lifetime but they will not see it.

You're just making things up and can't accept the fact you're wrong.

~ That verse is part of the Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse and it's all about prophecy. Luke 17:20-37.

~ Read this below. Jesus and His disciples already knew His second coming isn't in there lifetime. Peter is warning them the end is at least a thousand year away.....and for a good reason.

2 Peter 3:1-9 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Jesus Will Come Again
3 My friends, this is the second letter I have written to you. I wrote both letters to you to help your honest minds remember something. 2 I want you to remember the words that the holy prophets spoke in the past. And remember the command that our Lord and Savior gave us. He gave us that command through your apostles.

3 It is important for you to understand what will happen in the last days. People will laugh at you. They will live following the evil they want to do. 4 They will say, “Jesus promised to come again. Where is he? Our fathers have died, but the world continues the way it has been since it was made.”

5 But these people don’t want to remember what happened long ago. The skies were there, and God made the earth from water and with water. All this happened by God’s word. 6 Then the world was flooded and destroyed with water. 7 And that same word of God is keeping the skies and the earth that we have now. They are being kept to be destroyed by fire. They are kept for the day of judgment and the destruction of all people who are against God.

8 But don’t forget this one thing, dear friends: To the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day. 9 The Lord is not being slow in doing what he promised—the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He doesn’t want anyone to be lost. He wants everyone to change their ways and stop sinning.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+peter+3%3A1-9&version=ERV

What you have said is that this verse is the proof that there is more than One Coming of Jesus YET TO COME .One to rapture His Church (Bride)BEFORE the Great Tribulation and the other when he return with His Church (Wife)after the Great Tribulation.

Preaching that there is more than one Coming of Jesus yet to come is against Scripture.
That is like negate that Jesus First Advent was 2,000 years ago...

The Bible warn us about this:

Galatians 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

You mean like how you've been promoting this website http://www.biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm#2
since you first came to this forum that preaches no such thing as the rapture or the catching away etc, and the second half of the tribulation is shorten to 5 months? LOL!!!

It's amazing that you actually accept this type of teaching over what the bible said. That website of yours is just ignoring 1 Thess 4:16-17.

What the website say is that the gathering together in the clouds (rapture) will happen at Jesus Second Coming -Near The END- of the great tribulation...
You have surely not read what they say about about the fundamental error in all the different Rapture scenarios...
See this link for detailed explanation.
The Rapture according to 'Them'

The fundamental error in all the 'Rapture' scenarios is that they all, in one fashion or another, believe that at some point in time only a portion of the people will be removed.

First of all, they misunderstand the Bible when it says that "all will be changed" to read "will be Raptured' The change is a change of body, it is us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. and this happens to ALL people on the earth at Christ's coming AT THE SAME TIME! It is the consummation of the age, which is the beginning of the Millennium. Read the below Scripture carefully and put out of your mind all that false 'Rapture' stuff. The below Scripture speaks of us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. Those who are asleep (dead) have already changed into their spiritual body at the moment of their individual deaths. Their flesh corpse is the only thing in the grave. But those who shall still be living when Christ returns must also go into their spiritual bodies, but the are changed without actually dying a flesh death, they just discard these flesh 'Tabernacles' and the spiritual man emerges. For the in the Millennium we are no longer in our flesh bodies, but rather, we are in our spiritual bodies.

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)
​

And these are some of the comments taken from your website. http://www.biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm#2

* "There shall be no 'Rapture'. The word Rapture does not even appear in any Bible version (to date). The Rapture is a lie strait from satan's camp to disarm the Christian and cause him/her to willingly lay down their Gospel Armor. Let's examine Ephesians 6:10-18 where we are told about the Gospel Armor:"

* "They, the Rapture teachers, have built a doctrine (Rapture) not on the foundation that is Christ, but rather on a foundation of lies and false teaching. their foundation will fall when the satan's flood of lies are unleashed (the Great Tribulation):"

This website is promoting the rapture to be satanic, and you appearantly suppport this with this thread you started on this forum when you first joined. http://www.christianforums.com/t7823138/

Now tell me this Riberra. Where is your credibility about the bible? Most people here believes in 1 Thess 4:16-17 because it's written in the bible.

Why should we take your word over the bible?

"Just need to disclose this for the new people that recently joined this forum."


.

 

[TPeterY]

There are none.....What part of AFTER don't y'all get??

Pretty much nuthin. Jesus already taught us through Nicodemus a wise man or woman should never assume he or she already knows the answer till AFTER the question has been made clear.

 

[TPeterY]

Based on God's Word, the rapture event occurs at the last trumpet, which is the 7th trumpet. This also brings the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation to a close when Christ returns in flaming fire taking vengeance on the ungodly.

Since this is the time of the rapture, it is perfectly logical that the two witnesses would be raptured at the same time.

If we use scripture to define scripture, we may also find that the two witnesses are symbols of the Church. Consider the verses below.[/COLOR][/B]


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The candlesticks are a symbol of the churches, when we use scripture to define scripture.

The olive tree is a symbol of Israel in the Old Testament.

Therefore, it is possible that the two witnesses are in reality a symbol of the Church and a symbol of the grafting of the gentile and Jewish Christians into faithful Israel. This is not my idea. Some of the earlier commentators agreed with this interpretation. It can be proven that there are symbols throughout the book of Revelation. Sometimes it becomes very difficult to determine what is to be taken symbolically and what is to be taken literally.

Based on the above, the rapture of the two witnesses at the 7th trumpet would of course be logical. However, it does differ from the version seen within the "Left Behind" movies, so it will be automatically rejected by most pretribbers.

We went over something like this a couple weeks ago and spoke about the "Mystery."

I had told you, you can't just assume that when you see the same word used in other scriptures, it doesn't neccessarily mean that other the other scripture is dealing with the same thing. You have to check and be sure.

The word Candlesticks is used numerous times in other passages. From this link it said 352 references. candlesticks - Online Bible Study Tools | page 2

Here's an example below:

Ezekiel 38:1-6 (NKJV)
1) Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2) “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3) and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. 4) I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 6) Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops—many people are with you.

Hosea 1:3 (NKJV)
So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.

Would you actually think the daughter of Diblaim is gonna attack Israel someday?

Alright, I actually took a jab at you there but only because this is the second time in two weeks you do this. Hopefully you'll check and be sure you know what it is you're preaching because Rev 1:20 and Rev 11:4 are not referring to the same thing.

But I'm sure she must have been a lovely girl.

Your link to prophecy teachers may be just a little one sided. If you will notice there is a + beside the names of all of the pretrib teachers and an X beside the names of most of those who have another viewpoint.


The quotation cited below is a one-sided hatchet job on Pastor Tim Warner.


"Founder of The Pristine Faith Restoration Society, a group of dedicated Christians "determined to research and promote the beliefs and practices of pristine Christianity." He is a well-studied post-tribulationist, and argues for the post-tribulation rapture position. He is a well-known debater against the pre-tribulation rapture position (which he calls a "myth"), is an author, and is head of The Post-Trib Research Center and answersinrevelation.org. With volumes of information his views are argued well, but scholars contend he must first discredit scriptures that indicate there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. That, in turn, discredits his theories which do not hold up under close scrutiny. On a positive note, he argues against preterism."


It is obvious that this author, like you, is upset with Pastor Warner for exposing the origins of the pretrib doctrine and Dispensationalism. His article on the lies told by Grant Jeffrey have also been regarded with anger by those of your position.

Pastor Warner's research is fully capable of defending itself, because he lists the sources used within the article. This allows those seeking the truth to find those sources within the libraries of well known seminaries, if they so desire.

I would simply ask that those who are seeking the truth go to Pastor Warner's site and verify the information for themselves. The truth is always sought by those who are truly seeking it, and always avoided by those who are desperately attempting to validate their unscriptural doctrine.[/COLOR][/B]

Isn't that pretty much what Tim Warner is doing from all the links you've provided of his opinion......a one-sided hatchet job against the Pre-Trib rapture?

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Read this. Pretty much formed opinions. Hardly any scriptural references quoted to support his arguments.

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Read this too. Most of his arguments are centered around Matthew 24:29-31. It's been debunked. Post number #33.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7839006-4/



.

 

[BABerean2]

We went over something like this a couple weeks ago and spoke about the "Mystery."

I had told you, you can't just assume that when you see the same word used in other scriptures, it doesn't neccessarily mean that other the other scripture is dealing with the same thing. You have to check and be sure.

The word Candlesticks is used numerous times in other passages. From this link it said 352 references. candlesticks - Online Bible Study Tools | page 2

Here's an example below:

Ezekiel 38:1-6 (NKJV)
1) Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2) “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3) and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. 4) I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 6) Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops—many people are with you.

Hosea 1:3 (NKJV)
So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.

Would you actually think the daughter of Diblaim is gonna attack Israel someday?

Alright, I actually took a jab at you there but only because this is the second time in two weeks you do this. Hopefully you'll check and be sure you know what it is you're preaching because Rev 1:20 and Rev 11:4 are not referring to the same thing.

But I'm sure she must have been a lovely girl.



Isn't that pretty much what Tim Warner is doing from all the links you've provided of his opinion......a one-sided hatchet job against the Pre-Trib rapture?




Read this. Pretty much formed opinions. Hardly any scriptural references quoted to support his arguments.





Read this too. Most of his arguments are centered around Matthew 24:29-31. It's been debunked. Post number #33.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7839006-4/



.

I agree we cannot assume that the same word always means the same thing. However, when a particular writer, in this case John, uses the same word in the same book that is a different story. Symbols used in the same book normally have the same meaning. In this particular case we have the word "candlesticks" used in the book of Revelation. Perhaps you do not want to recognize that they mean the same thing in this case, because it goes against your viewpoint.

Rev_1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev_1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev_1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks.

The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev_2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Rev_11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.



I went back and read your earlier post about Matthew 24 and 1st Thess. chapter 4.

You are attempting to draw a distinction between words in Matthew 24 and 1st Thess. chapter 4, because you do not like what you find in the text.

Saying that a trump is not a trumpet is a distinction that does not exist.

Another is your example that because the word Archangel is used in one passage and the word angels is used in the other. The Archangel is an angel. Also, a reference to the Archangel does not mean that other angels are not present. It is another distinction that does not reveal anything, but your personal prejudice.

There is one word you did not mention in both passages. The word is "coming". The Greek word used is Parousia. It shows that they are referring to the same event, which is the return of Christ instead of some "Secret Rapture".


..........................................................................................

Your prejudice against Pastor Warner's website shows a similar attitude. In the article about Grant Jeffrey cutting out parts of the quotes of the early Church fathers, pastor Warner provides the historical writing of the Church Father. He then shows in red the section cut out by Grant Jeffrey. The complete Bibliography at the end of the article provides the source so that someone can actually check the information for themselves. The majority of the article is not Pastor Warner's opinion. Instead it is made up of the quotations of the early Church fathers. If you have actually read the article, you have seen this. I would ask that everyone actually read the article and judge it for themselves instead of taking your word, or my word of it's content.


Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


I looked for and did not find any Bibliography (sources) in the opinion article you provided which gave a + to the pretrib teachers and an x to those who were of another opinion. Therefore it is based solely on that authors opinion.

Hopefully, you can see the difference between an article based solely on opinion and one based mainly on the writings of the early Church fathers. If you cannot, then we are wasting our time discussing the issue.

However, others who are reading the posts on this forum can read Pastor Warner's work and judge it for themselves, without the influence of either of us.

 

[NannaNae]

so I am going to try it a different way again..

do you guys understand that the first real battle into the promise land was Jerico right?

a trumpet a day for 6 days then 7 trumpets on the 7thday.. what feast is that ?

All Israel essentially took the promised land in that moment in all ways but physically there was still land to take ... it had become the kingdom of Israel ( the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our god ) in that single last trumpet moment. it all falls down. everything, all of it . it is just a matter of picking up the pieces and cleaning up the mess from there and taking the land .

Then just a few more skirmishes a couple more years before the actualization of what happened really that day of terror , after the 6 trumpets ,then 7 trumpets of the 7th day .

then the bride has to "get herself ready" / what is the bride theoretically/ allegorically / physically ?
it is many things and he means all of them, every single allegorical and theoretical concept he ever brings to the table in his word , he means..all of them except the dirty.

If you are his child and are part of any part of that event we will be blessed to be any part it ... but is his people ready to finish the job that day that HE starts ? or will they forgive what he isn't forgiving , or will they do more mongering ?
Some won't have faith to complete the next 3/ 1/2 years of cleaning up, finishing duties, and taking the land and the kingdoms and all things of life becomes his and it our duty to save what can be saved both human and otherwise, but only everything of LIFE as he define 'life' is saved , this is not about our definitions , it is not about us ! awareness is not life !

some think they dis-serve better than service To him and to his new kingdom.
SO the enemy and the enemies of God is still around , sin still exists and it is all a battle until it is all finished and then he comes as a king to his kingdom.... re-read the taking of the promise land for some real ideas of what it all means. because history will repeat itself.

Jerico is the picture of the coming magnificently terrible day. and when it all falls down on one terribly magnificent day. ... it is a picture and of the truth about anything you might want to call a rapture or not call it such.. but that is the day a physical kingdom will start again or restart. it all starts for real but it is just a start not the end. some will maintain their faith in him for 3 1/2 more years of battles and others won't.

We have a driving need for today to learn how to follow his lead to know him and his voice and his word.. ..and so that from that point on it is our job to work in concert with him to build the bride /the kingdom and to be the bride( the "help mates" to complete the job .. and to be family/ commitment/ married / in unity with or for the creator of the universe )

There isn't any kingdom except the one he is building in us until the greatest magnificently terrifying and terrible and terror-able day ( but we won't be in terror because we know, we will be at peace , because that day we will know that we know him..) ... that terrible day that has ever been and it will be just like Jericho , everything and I do mean everything falls down, if everything , and I mean everything isn't falling down it isn't the day his kingdom starts.