Rapture Before Wrath

[Danoh]

In studying Dispensational Theology it has become obvious that some want to distance themselves from Darby, however most dispensationalists are not willing to completely give up on the doctrine. It is as if they are trying to remove the rotten parts of the fruit. Progressive Dispensationalism is one example. Many of them have abandoned the pretrib doctrine, but cling to what remains.

I will have to admit, your stand on "Mid-Acts" was a new one to me.

The following is the opinion of Jerry Johnson, who is a former dispensationalist.
Not only did he let go of it, but he is sounding the alarm about Darby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYTEwt0oAd0

Perhaps you should have stopped at "give me milk"

Progressive Ds is compromise, as is your side's NC Theology.

Its the ignorance of lets focus on what might bring us together at the expense of what sometimes has to keep us apart for the sake of the truth.

That is not Mid- Acts Dispensationalism.

Rather, MDD is the principle of "what principle is it the Apostle Paul appear to be, on the one hand, asserting, on the other hand, basing that one on.

We find it to be his Eph. 2: "Time Past," v. 11, "But Now," v. 13, and, "the Ages to Come" Perspective.

For us, it is a simple matter of where what we are studying in Scripture fits into any of those three AND what Operating Principle might alert us to its actually being the case.

And Paul identifies what that Principle is right there: within that DISTINCTION IN IDENTITIES between verses 11 and 13.

Between WHEN the DISTINCTION BETWEEN Circumcision and Uncircumcision is obviously in operation.

And the way we arrive at that is further based on Paul, as he is to the Body, what Moses is to Israel, which is why Christ, as "a minister OF THE CIRCUMCISION" Rom. 15:8; Matt. 15:24, would so often ask them, "what did Moses say...what did Moses write... have you kept this, that, other commandment... go and do as Moses said...

Its a simple matter of ACTUALLY noting whether the Eph. 2: 11 DISTINCTION is up, or not, where ever you happen to be reading in Scripture.

Passages like Matt. 8:4, and 23: 2 make it obvious the Circumcision DISTINCTION is STILL up in Matt., Mark, Luke, and John.

That we need to "rightly divide" in light of that.

Like wise as to Acts 2: Pentecost - an Israelite feast under Moses, Lev. 14...

Likewise as to HEBREWS thru Revelation. Hebrews 2 asserts it is based on Acts 2. Its to them what Romans is to the Body: how the Cross impacts their New Covenant's Promise to one day enable them to keep the Law of Moses, through their adoption one day, and so on, Ezekial 36; Heb. 8. Just as James bases James two on Jesus' sermon on the mount.

This has nothing to do with an attempt to dissacociate ourselves from anyone, BAB.

Look, B, I was once where you are. Acts 17: 11 - and 12 - a favorite... And yet, one I found I was not actually living by...

Unless the many, many books supposedly "about the Bible," I was then into, is what being a Berean too, is...

I suggest you put your books and videos "about" away, and actually follow those three principles made obvious Acts 17:11, 12 - receive a thing new to you with all readiness of mind, actually do that.

Only THEN should you search the Scriptures daily, and this towards ACTUALLY attempting to find whether those things are so...

That you might THEREFORE BELIEVE...

 

[BABerean2]

Perhaps you should have stopped at "give me milk"

Progressive Ds is compromise, as is your side's NC Theology.

Its the ignorance of lets focus on what might bring us together at the expense of what sometimes has to keep us apart for the sake of the truth.

That is not Mid- Acts Dispensationalism.

Rather, MDD is the principle of "what principle is it the Apostle Paul appear to be, on the one hand, asserting, on the other hand, basing that one on.

We find it to be his Eph. 2: "Time Past," v. 11, "But Now," v. 13, and, "the Ages to Come" Perspective.

For us, it is a simple matter of where what we are studying in Scripture fits into any of those three AND what Operating Principle might alert us to its actually being the case.

And Paul identifies what that Principle is right there: within that DISTINCTION IN IDENTITIES between verses 11 and 13.

Between WHEN the DISTINCTION BETWEEN Circumcision and Uncircumcision is obviously in operation.

And the way we arrive at that is further based on Paul, as he is to the Body, what Moses is to Israel, which is why Christ, as "a minister OF THE CIRCUMCISION" Rom. 15:8; Matt. 15:24, would so often ask them, "what did Moses say...what did Moses write... have you kept this, that, other commandment... go and do as Moses said...

Its a simple matter of ACTUALLY noting whether the Eph. 2: 11 DISTINCTION is up, or not, where ever you happen to be reading in Scripture.

Passages like Matt. 8:4, and 23: 2 make it obvious the Circumcision DISTINCTION is STILL up in Matt., Mark, Luke, and John.

That we need to "rightly divide" in light of that.

Like wise as to Acts 2: Pentecost - an Israelite feast under Moses, Lev. 14...

Likewise as to HEBREWS thru Revelation. Hebrews 2 asserts it is based on Acts 2. Its to them what Romans is to the Body: how the Cross impacts their New Covenant's Promise to one day enable them to keep the Law of Moses, through their adoption one day, and so on, Ezekial 36; Heb. 8. Just as James bases James two on Jesus' sermon on the mount.

This has nothing to do with an attempt to dissacociate ourselves from anyone, BAB.

Look, B, I was once where you are. Acts 17: 11 - and 12 - a favorite... And yet, one I found I was not actually living by...

Unless the many, many books supposedly "about the Bible," I was then into, is what being a Berean too, is...

I suggest you put your books and videos "about" away, and actually follow those three principles made obvious Acts 17:11, 12 - receive a thing new to you with all readiness of mind, actually do that.

Only THEN should you search the Scriptures daily, and this towards ACTUALLY attempting to find whether those things are so...

That you might THEREFORE BELIEVE...

How does this statement from Christ fit into your division?

Luk_16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

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[Danoh]

How does this statement from Christ fit into your division?

Luk_16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

.

Good question, hopefully your intent is as well, or we'll just spin our wheels

Firs off, note that HE ALSO notes a DIVISION between the one and the other, via His "were until" and His "since then."

If you run its sister passages, you find He is relating that, that PROPHESIED Grace that THEIR prophets "did say should come" "at hand" - THEIR PROPHESIED Kingdom AND its King: David's rightful heir!

That just blows me away!

You recall their message back to the Father about that - "we will not have this man reign over us... his blood be upon us and our children!"

What a horrendous, awful thing to swear on - on our childre!!!

You remember how moved the Lord was when those precuous ones were brought to Him - even He is touched by their way...

God, when I think of the plague of mankind's worst that Israel left itself open to. How that must have broken His heart, as He foresaw the implication of their leave us to our own ways, once more.

To think that such as Hitler's monstrous nightmare on their "children" had not had to be.. it just breaks the heart, it really does..

We human beings are one fool of a creature.

Thus, both, the Rose of Romans 5:8, but also of its thorns: of its Savior's Crown...

Study out its sister passages: see what they, together paint a picture of.

Keep at the forefront of your mind what He also said as to "the law and the prophets" -; as to its "neither one jot, nor one tittle... UNTIL..."

Look at WHERE He stopped at in Isaiah 61:2 in His reading of aloud in Luke 4.

What He asserted there, in contrast to what He left out - Isaiah 61: 2 b's "and the day of vengeance of our God."

Compare Luke 4 there with Isaiah 61: 1, 2.

BEHOLD, brother, your Lord Himself "rightly dividing [or, rightly laying out] HIS Word - OF TRUTH!!!" as to its TIMELINE DISTINCTIONS!

 

[BABerean2]

Good question, hopefully your intent is as well, or we'll just spin our wheels

Firs off, note that HE ALSO notes a DIVISION between the one and the other, via His "were until" and His "since then."

If you run its sister passages, you find He is relating that, that PROPHESIED Grace that THEIR prophets "did say should come" "at hand" - THEIR PROPHESIED Kingdom AND its King: David's rightful heir!

That just blows me away!

You recall their message back to the Father about that - "we will not have this man reign over us... his blood be upon us and our children!"

What a horrendous, awful thing to swear on - on our childre!!!

You remember how moved the Lord was when those precuous ones were brought to Him - even He is touched by their way...

God, when I think of the plague of mankind's worst that Israel left itself open to. How that must have broken His heart, as He foresaw the implication of their leave us to our own ways, once more.

To think that such as Hitler's monstrous nightmare on their "children" had not had to be.. it just breaks the heart, it really does..

We human beings are one fool of a creature.

Thus, both, the Rose of Romans 5:8, but also of its thorns: of its Savior's Crown...

Study out its sister passages: see what they, together paint a picture of.

Keep at the forefront of your mind what He also said as to "the law and the prophets" -; as to its "neither one jot, nor one tittle... UNTIL..."

Look at WHERE He stopped at in Isaiah 61:2 in His reading of aloud in Luke 4.

What He asserted there, in contrast to what He left out - Isaiah 61: 2 b's "and the day of vengeance of our God."

Compare Luke 4 there with Isaiah 61: 1, 2.

BEHOLD, brother, your Lord Himself "rightly dividing [or, rightly laying out] HIS Word - OF TRUTH!!!" as to its TIMELINE DISTINCTIONS!

Brother Danoh,

Please forgive me, but you know I am always looking for sources of information.

Is this what you are describing in the website found in this link for Grace Ambassadors?


About the Doctrine

 

[Danoh]

Brother Danoh,

Please forgive me, but you know I am always looking for sources of information.

Is this what you are describing in the website found in this link for Grace Ambassadors?


About the Doctrine

So am I... my point about commentaries is the tendency I've observed them consistently lead to in far too many individuals: the common lingo they lead to between their readers, together with the tendency to conclude one basically knows the Word, and that one knows how to look at a thing.

For me, the way to that knowing how has been, not simply to keep my nose in the Word, but attempting to extract from it what principles it might teach as to how to extract from it what it is attempting to teach.

Its why I answered you above with suggesting what you might look at in Scripture, and perhaps how, rather than simply answering you. You might recall that both the Lord and Paul had this same "What saith the Scripture?" habit. That right there has taught me ag great deal about how to examine things.

Aa for your question about that Mid-Acts website, I do agree with much of his many writings. Though I am not yet KJV Only.

There are some major differences within the various Mid-Acts groups. It depends on their overall approach to things.

But for one group that I know of, our Eschatolgy is more or less the same.

Here's a video I agree with:

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=i6hzxntPqIU

 

[TPeterY]

Have you ever heard of Charles Haddon Spurgeon? He is probably the most famous Baptist pastor of all time.

Pastor Tim Warner of Oasis Church in Florida has done a great deal to expose the history of the pretrib doctrine, in recent years.

I was not aware that Martin Luther supported a pretrib rapture. If you have any evidence of that, I would like to see it.

Benjamin Newton was totally opposed to the "Secret Rapture". It was one of the main issues that caused the split between Newton and Darby.

I am not sure about Manuel Lacunza. His book may have started Dispensational Theology, but I did not realize he supported the pretrib doctrine. I am also amazed that you would even acknowledge the part he played in the origin of your doctrine. Most of the dispensational scholars on this forum would probably be upset with you.

You may want to recheck your facts next time before you make bold statements like " I didn't think so!"

It shows a lack of humility, Brother. That always gets us into trouble.

I will agree in one way that the worst part of the trib for unbelievers will be on the last day when Christ returns in flaming fire.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Do you want to be taken or left behind?



Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The taken are eaten by the vultures.

I wonder if Tim LaHaye read this passage before he decided on the title of his pretrib book and movie series?

Nope, never heard of him. In fact, I've never heard of any of those other names you've been preaching till you came to this forum back in May. Names I'm familiar with are Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Moses, David, Abraham, Issac, Jacob Joseph and for the ladies, Mary and Sarah.

You know the difference between you and me is I study the bible, you study the internet, and your lack of understanding the scriptures is pretty obvious.

Christ does not return at the 7th trumpet nor do people get rapture to be slaughter as you've posted above. You seem to have a certain vendetta against Pre-Trib and certainly go out of your way to smear it's doctrine that reflects God's love for the Church.

No offense bud, but sometimes I wonder if you have a relationship with God. There should be peace in your heart if you do, but it just seems to be so filled with trouble accepting Christ delivering the Church before wrath. This type of rejection is what will get you into trouble, as well as a lost of all rewards you've worked for. If you really want to be here during the tribulation, Christ will have no problem giving you what you want. Read Proverbs, you're just prophesying your future.

How hard is it to understand 1 Thess 5:9? God does not want the Church here during His wrath. He will have Jesus come deliver us before He passes judgment.

Study all the stories in the OT about what God does before He sent out His wrath. God's the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. This time He's having Christ come to deliver the church.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath - Online Bible Study Tools

Again if you want to be here, that's fine with me. Just don't lead others not as knowledgeable of scriptures down your path. Other then that, I'll pray for you.....in Jesus' name, Amen!



.

 

[BABerean2]

Nope, never heard of him. In fact, I've never heard of any of those other names you've been preaching till you came to this forum back in May. Names I'm familiar with are Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Moses, David, Abraham, Issac, Jacob Joseph and for the ladies, Mary and Sarah.

You know the difference between you and me is I study the bible, you study the internet, and your lack of understanding the scriptures is pretty obvious.

Christ does not return at the 7th trumpet nor do people get rapture to be slaughter as you've posted above. You seem to have a certain vendetta against Pre-Trib and certainly go out of your way to smear it's doctrine that reflects God's love for the Church.

No offense bud, but sometimes I wonder if you have a relationship with God. There should be peace in your heart if you do, but it just seems to be so filled with trouble accepting Christ delivering the Church before wrath. This type of rejection is what will get you into trouble, as well as a lost of all rewards you've worked for. If you really want to be here during the tribulation, Christ will have no problem giving you what you want. Read Proverbs, you're just prophesying your future.

How hard is it to understand 1 Thess 5:9? God does not want the Church here during His wrath. He will have Jesus come deliver us before He passes judgment.

Study all the stories in the OT about what God does before He sent out His wrath. God's the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. This time He's having Christ come to deliver the church.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath - Online Bible Study Tools

Again if you want to be here, that's fine with me. Just don't lead others not as knowledgeable of scriptures down your path. Other then that, I'll pray for you.....in Jesus' name, Amen!



.

Unfortunately, I have seen the same pattern of behavior from many pretrib promoters.

1. Avoid the origin of the doctrine.

2. Take scripture out of context to promote the doctrine.

3. Use personal attacks or ridicule against those with an opposing viewpoint.

Anytime you doubt someone's relationship with God or Christ, you have moved to number 3. It is a sad commentary of some on this forum.

If you are losing the argument, you launch a personal attack on your Brother or Sister.

I forgive you. I have no choice.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

.

 

[BABerean2]

So am I... my point about commentaries is the tendency I've observed them consistently lead to in far too many individuals: the common lingo they lead to between their readers, together with the tendency to conclude one basically knows the Word, and that one knows how to look at a thing.

For me, the way to that knowing how has been, not simply to keep my nose in the Word, but attempting to extract from it what principles it might teach as to how to extract from it what it is attempting to teach.

Its why I answered you above with suggesting what you might look at in Scripture, and perhaps how, rather than simply answering you. You might recall that both the Lord and Paul had this same "What saith the Scripture?" habit. That right there has taught me ag great deal about how to examine things.

Aa for your question about that Mid-Acts website, I do agree with much of his many writings. Though I am not yet KJV Only.

There are some major differences within the various Mid-Acts groups. It depends on their overall approach to things.

But for one group that I know of, our Eschatolgy is more or less the same.

Here's a video I agree with:

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=i6hzxntPqIU

I could not get the link to work.

 

[Bible2]

TPeterY said in post 207:

. . . Christ delivering the Church before wrath.

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

TPeterY said in post 207:

If you really want to be here during the tribulation, Christ will have no problem giving you what you want.

Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

TPeterY said in post 207:

If you really want to be here during the tribulation . . .

Note that no Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

TPeterY said in post 207:

How hard is it to understand 1 Thess 5:9?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

 

[Danoh]

Unfortunately, I have seen the same pattern of behavior from many pretrib promoters.

1. Avoid the origin of the doctrine.

2. Take scripture out of context to promote the doctrine.

3. Use personal attacks or ridicule against those with an opposing viewpoint.

Anytime you doubt someone's relationship with God or Christ, you have moved to number 3. It is a sad commentary of some on this forum.

If you are losing the argument, you launch a personal attack on your Brother or Sister.

I forgive you. I have no choice.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, ho - how much w oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

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You've just answered the question as to why Mid-Acts Dispensationalism and Its Mystery GRACE Gospel.

How much is seventy times seven?

The Lord was operating within Daniel's prophesied Time Line UNDER THE LAW, see Daniel 9.

In this, the Lords comments here and there throughout Matthew thru John reflect both His, and their awareness of that. Its these kinds of pasages you won't find much commentary on outside of your own time in the Word

Fact is, brother, that under the Law, though they often found the principle that they could not do what they would: what the Law would have them do, that was Time Past.

But Now, God's GRACE toward us in His Son's Cross, enables us to forgive. In short, under the Law, you had to, "for the Law worketh wrath."

While NOW, under Grace, you can. Its just a matter of both understanding this grace wherein we stand, and then of accessing it by faith.

Only when you build again what Christ through revealed He had destroyed the strength of, do you make yourself a trangressor.

Its funny... all this once more validates why Pre-Trib, some two thousand years or so before Darby, or whomever, but not all can see it. Fewer still, who stop at some book they may have read about the bare bones of it, can continue to grow in it, as its accessed through time in the Word.

In short, brother, you CAN forgive. Because, THIS SIDE of His Grace toward us in His Son - Dispensational Distinction if there ever was one, you CAN, as God FORGAVE you, for Christ's sake - in other words, when, per Romans 1-3, all you merited was His tribulation AND wrath, He gave you His Grace, not by any works of righteousness you had done, BUT according to His mercy He saved us...

In THIS Grace, wherein you stand justified by faith in His Son..

Just access it by faith, and forgive as you were; while you did not deserve it. Forgive others in that same way, and you'll find you can.

And hopefully, you'll begin to at least the Grace of Mid-Acts Eschatology: Saved by Grace and therefore also delivered by it, from that wrath to come, in that the Law worketh wrath, and "ye are NOT under the Law, BUT under Grace

 

[TPeterY]

note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured

Oh really? If you think John 3:16 gives every Christians a free ride to meet Christ during the rapture, read below. Who is this group of people calling Jesus Lord? They're not Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus nor Jews. Only Christians call Jesus Lord. How is it Christians can not enter the Kingdom of heaven? They accepted John 3:16 and still not allowed? It's because this is their prayer to Christ after realizing they missed the rapture.

John 3:16 only saves you from the 2nd death and bypass The Great White Throne Judgement, not the rapture.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
21) “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22) Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23) And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

And yes, there's two Days of the Lord ahead. one before the tribulation and one at the end. Days is plural with an "s" at the end. And He's telling this to his disciples which represents the church that some members of the church will not see the day of the Son of Man during His second coming.

Luke 17:22 (NKJV)
Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.

John 3:16 is gift-based, you just have to accept the gift and you have everlasting life, but not all pursue eternal life with the Father.

John 3:15-16 (NKJV)
15) that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Rapture is work-based. The bare minimum to be ready for His return is to constantly be watchful. And He's not talking about grabbing a pair of binoculars and stargaze every night. He's speaking in a allegorical sense.

Luke 21:36 (NKJV)
Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[a] to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

1 Peter 4:7 (NKJV)
But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

And if you aren't always watchful, He's not taking you with Him.

Revelation 3:3 (NKJV)
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

And this is why the Post-Trib doctrine mentally hinders Christians from being ready for Christ's return. You guys are too busy preparing to save your life getting ready to go through the tribulation instead of listening to His commandment to preach the gospel, take up your cross and help lead others to be ready and prepare for His return.

Mark 16:15 (NKJV)
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Matthew 24:14 (NKJV)
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

You guys (Post-Trib) are too busy worrying about saving your life getting ready for the tribulation instead of getting ready for Christ when He comes as the bridegroom. A total mental distraction.

Matthew 16:24-27 (NKJV)
24) Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25) For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26) For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27) For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.


And there's no in-between. You are either for Him to help Him prepare as many people to be ready for His return or you're against Him.

Matthew 12:30 (CEV)
If you are not on my side, you are against me. If you don’t gather in the harvest with me, you scatter it.

Once again, the rapture is work-based, you have to be active. It's not John 3:16, it's not gift-based. John 3:16 saved you from the second death at the end of the millennium. Christ wants you to be ready for Him, not the tribulation. These are His commands and warnings.

And for your works, He will reward you for taking up your cross.

1 Peter 5:2-4 (NKJV)
2) Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3) nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; 4) and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.


Revelation 22:12 (NKJV)
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.


The rapture is reward-based given only to those for their works.

If you still think all Christians will be rapture, tell me, will Klu Klux Klan members be rapture too? They're Christians also. What about a preacher like Mike Murdoch?

To be considered a Christian, you only need to accept the gift, John 3:16. Too many people accepted it so they don't have to go to hell after they die. Wrong reason to be a Christian.

All Disciples are Christians, but not all Christians are Disciples. There are Christians and there are nominal Christians.

To be a Disciple, you have to take up your cross and follow Jesus.

All Disciples, Stewards, babies and children will be rapture. A minority of Christians will be rapture, not all.


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[TPeterY]

2. Take scripture out of context to promote the doctrine.

I agree with that. Who do you think has been doing just that from the quote below about those rapture being eaten by the vultures?

The rapture is the Blessed Hope of the Church and you just turned it into a condemnation for the Saints.

Do you want to be taken or left behind?



Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The taken are eaten by the vultures.

I wonder if Tim LaHaye read this passage before he decided on the title of his pretrib book and movie series?

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[BABerean2]

I agree with that. Who do you think has been doing just that from the quote below about those rapture being eaten by the vultures?

The rapture is the Blessed Hope of the Church and you just turned it into a condemnation for the Saints.




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You may want to look again at who spoke the truth of those taken.

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

You may not like what Christ said, because it destroys your doctrine. However, you will have to take up your disagreement with Him.

When pretribbers talk about the "Blessed Hope" they always forget to mention the rest of the verse.

Tit_2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

You will notice the "Blessed Hope" and the "Glorious Appearing" are together.

Why do you try to separate them, Brother?

.

 

[TPeterY]

You may want to look again at who spoke the truth of those taken.

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

You may not like what Christ said, because it destroys your doctrine. However, you will have to take up your disagreement with Him.

When pretribbers talk about the "Blessed Hope" they always forget to mention the rest of the verse.

Tit_2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

You will notice the "Blessed Hope" and the "Glorious Appearing" are together.

Why do you try to separate them, Brother?

.

Oh my goodness, you gotta be kidding me. Do you see what you just did?

First note this. If something looks odd like the rapture taking the saints to be devour by vultures, just STOP right there and start thinking to yourself. Does this not look odd? But you just accept that notion the rapture of the church leads to condemnation.

Evidence of not understanding the bible. Must be from studying the internet too much.

Okay here's what did wrong. You cut the other verses prior to verse 34 out and not look at the entire paragraph. Basically you just took a few verses out of content and read into just that.

Now look at the entire picture starting from verse 26...as in the days of Noah.

Luke 17:26-37 (NKJV)
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

See verses 29-30? That's your answer right there and that's what will happen. Those raptured are taken away before destruction hits, killing those left behind. The carcass are those that died from the fire and brimstone from heaven.

And again we see how God delivers those not appointed to wrath out of harms way before destruction hits.

And Christ told that story allegorically if you didn't noticed. I say this because He's talking about those in the last days that loses their life (taking up his cross and follow Him) will find it and those who finds it will lose it in the tribulation. Meaning they will get left behind.



.

 

[BABerean2]

Oh my goodness, you gotta be kidding me. Do you see what you just did?

First note this. If something looks odd like the rapture taking the saints to be devour by vultures, just STOP right there and start thinking to yourself. Does this not look odd? But you just accept that notion the rapture of the church leads to condemnation.

Evidence of not understanding the bible. Must be from studying the internet too much.

Okay here's what did wrong. You cut the other verses prior to verse 34 out and not look at the entire paragraph. Basically you just took a few verses out of content and read into just that.

Now look at the entire picture starting from verse 26...as in the days of Noah.

Luke 17:26-37 (NKJV)
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

See verses 29-30? That's your answer right there and that's what will happen. Those raptured are taken away before destruction hits, killing those left behind. The carcass are those that died from the fire and brimstone from heaven.

And again we see how God delivers those not appointed to wrath out of harms way before destruction hits.

And Christ told that story allegorically if you didn't noticed. I say this because He's talking about those in the last days that loses their life (taking up his cross and follow Him) will find it and those who finds it will lose it in the tribulation. Meaning they will get left behind.



.

Well, I have not yet been insulted today.

So, I thought this must be my opportunity.


I have a friend who is a former pastor, and is a dispensationalist.

He is also a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary.

He also knows who Charles Spurgeon was.


The first time I heard the explanation that the taken are eaten by the vultures, it came from him.

 

[shturt678s]

Oh my goodness, you gotta be kidding me. Do you see what you just did?

First note this. If something looks odd like the rapture taking the saints to be devour by vultures, just STOP right there and start thinking to yourself. Does this not look odd? But you just accept that notion the rapture of the church leads to condemnation.

Evidence of not understanding the bible. Must be from studying the internet too much.

Okay here's what did wrong. You cut the other verses prior to verse 34 out and not look at the entire paragraph. Basically you just took a few verses out of content and read into just that.

Now look at the entire picture starting from verse 26...as in the days of Noah.

Luke 17:26-37 (NKJV)
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

See verses 29-30? That's your answer right there and that's what will happen. Those raptured are taken away before destruction hits, killing those left behind. The carcass are those that died from the fire and brimstone from heaven.

Lk.17:29-30 = IIThess.1:7 = IThess.2:19 = "the end."

And again we see how God delivers those not appointed to wrath out of harms way before destruction hits.

No kidding my brother! Ie, doesn't work that way in the spiritual sphere with "delusions" of preliminary wrath.

And Christ told that story allegorically if you didn't noticed. I say this because He's talking about those in the last days that loses their life (taking up his cross and follow Him) will find it and those who finds it will lose it in the tribulation. Meaning they will get left behind.



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Old Jack's opinion only

 

[Riberra]

And yes, there's two Days of the Lord ahead. one before the tribulation and one at the end. Days is plural with an "s" at the end. And He's telling this to his disciples which represents the church that some members of the church will not see the day of the Son of Man during His second coming.

Luke 17:22 (NKJV)
Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.

Lets see the context:
Jesus said to the disciples who were with him that they will desire to see His Second Coming ( one of the days of the Son of Man ) but they will not see it.

For an obvious reason...

Jesus First Coming was about 2,000 years ago... during the time he was addressing these words to his disciples.
Jesus Second Coming will be Immediately after the Tribulation of those days... which is still yet to come .

Matthew 24:29-31
http://biblehub.com/kjv/matthew/24.htm
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Danoh]

Well, I have not yet been insulted today.

So, I thought this must be my opportunity.


I have a friend who is a former pastor, and is a dispensationalist.

He is also a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary.

He also knows who Charles Spurgeon was.


The first time I heard the explanation that the taken are eaten by the vultures, it came from him.

What's going on in some of these posts, Bab, is that those distinctions that men like Darby had only begun to attempt to both recover as well as to attempt to further refine as to their differences - 2nd Advent or Rapture - they had only begun to when said distinctions, not yet having been fully refined, were made tradition in said state, by their followers.

Some went on. Most never did.

Again, this is my point about over-relying on the writings of others - we need to learn hoe to study these things out from scratch - and that, almost each time out, given our tendency to settle in to previous understandings - even our own - as all there was to find.

Its why I am Mid-Acts Dispensational where many remain Acts Two. MMD not only solves for all these issues, but continues to challenge its adherent to continue to attempt to!

As a result, we're down to Four Dispensations: Promise, Gal. 3:17; Law, Rom. 5:14; Grace, Rom. 5:21, and Fulness of God's Two-Fold Kingdom: Mtt. 6:10; Eph. 1:10.

 

[Danoh]

As to that "two in the field," study out those "gnashing of teeth" passages.

The passage is 2nd Advent followed by His Kingdom on Earth material, Acts 3:20-24.

Only Paul teaches the Pre- Trib Rapture, as a verse by verse comparison of Romans 5 and 1 Thess. 5, will show. Romans 5 being WHY 1 Thess. 4 AND 5 assert what they do.

In the Spirit of Acts 17: 11, and 12

 

[TPeterY]

Lets see the context:
Jesus said to the disciples who were with him that they will desire to see His Second Coming ( one of the days of the Son of Man ) but they will not see it.

For an obvious reason...

Jesus First Coming was about 2,000 years ago... during the time he was addressing these words to his disciples.
Jesus Second Coming will be Immediately after the Tribulation of those days... which is still yet to come.

Riberra,

Look carefully at Luke 17:22.

1) He's talking to His disciples.
2) He tells them, you will not see the Son of Man.

Luke 17:22 (NKJV)
Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.

Now let me ask you this question.

If one of those days of the Son of Man was 2000 years ago, "who are the disciples looking at when Jesus was talking to them?"

Read the rest of the Olivet Discourse. it'll help you understand the time frame Jesus was addressing.


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