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Rapture Before Wrath

Danoh

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Mid-Acts Distinctions...

From the Mid-Acts Perspective, its obvious in that when Christ asserts in Matt. 16:18 that "Upon this rock I will build my church," He is referring to a church they already know about. He asserts, "I will build my church," not "a church."

Also, He ties it to Peter's confession, or acknowledgement, in verse 16, that He [Jesus] is "the Christ, the Son of the living God."

In other words, He is not referring to the Body of Christ, as that church, or assembly of people, was still a Mystery "hid IN GOD," Eph. 3:9.

The "church" He was referring to, then, was Messianic. Read John 1 all the way through.

Per Eph. 2, the middle wall of partition was still up. Thus, this was His Messianic assembly: that believing remant within that nation at that time.

Its confession was not that He died for their sins, for He had not yet died.

Some examples [but be sure to read all of John 1].

John 9:
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him [the blind man He'd healed] out; and when he found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36. He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37: And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Its a beautiful, touching passage. He came unto His own, and though the great majority refused to believe that He was the Son of God come in the name of His Father to confirm the truth of God's promises to that nation, here was one who simply said "Lord, I believe." Here was one of His own who'd believed Him. He must have been very happy in that rare of monents among so many of His own, who continued to refuse to trust that He was His Father's confirmation of His promises to them.

Here is another - again - this was before He died for sins...

Luke 2:
25. And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26. And it was revealed unto to him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
27. And he came into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of thr law,
28. Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29. Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30. For my eyes have seen thy salvation,
31. Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32. A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

I mean, children are precious as all get up - but here was their Christ! What a sight to behold this particular child must have been! What emotions this hundredfold blessing of a child He must have been to behold by someone that believing all those years that Israel had not heard from God!

Here was a "futurist" indeed!

For that is what we are - we see no need WHATSOEVER to symbolize away God's seeming turn from His ancient people once more, whom Paul would later assert with every fiber of his "futurist" spirit to be a people whom God FOREKNEW!

You know what that means - that UNCONDITIONAL COVENANT He confirmed some four hundred years before the Law to Abraham, by virtue of THE FACT, of His having made that promise NOT JUST TO ABRAHAM - BUT "TO THY SEED" - GET THIS-TO-HIS-SON - TO CHRIST!!! Gal. 3:15-18.

No, that is not the Body of Christ - that is Israel; that is God's Messianic Assembly, and its Isaiah 2:1-5 destiny.

And I'm fine with that, as a member of that other: that Heavenly assembly: the Body of Christ of God's Mystery in His Son that was "hid in God... from ages and from generations," until Paul, Eph. 3; Col. 1.

I'm content with this two assembly doctrine "of whom the whole family, in Earth [Israel one day] and in Heaven [the Body one day] is named," as to both "our Lord Jesus Christ," Eph. 3:14, 15.

Me, I'm okay with God's having once more placed His Prophesied plans for this people HE FOREKNEW, on hold til He finishes up His New Creature: The Body of the Mystery!

I'm okay with Israel being on hold.

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures" as we study in His Word just what He has in store for His ancient people who He FOREKNEW "might have hope" during this Mystery Age of God's seeming silence some would symbolize away in their misunderstanding of this TEMPORARY Mystery visit of God's among the Gentiles, Rom. 15:4; 11:23-29; Acts 15:15-17; 2 Peter 3.

:) :) :) :) :)
 
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bibletruth469

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appleofhiseye said:
I have a quick question for the OP, The coming wrath is from God? and not necessarily the persecutions now being done to the church? I certainly want to escape the coming wrath of God.

All true believers in Christ ,( not professing ones) will escape the wrath of God at the rapture of the church. I believe that it will be pre tribulation , before the 7 years of the tribulation start. Others in this post believe either in the pre wrath view or post trib. I believe that scripture supports the pre trib view, not the others for many reasons, some I mentioned in the OP.

As for the persecution happening in the church today and in the past, it is nothing at all like the severe persecution that will happen to the tribulation saints( saved after the rapture). One will not be able to buy or sell and will have to hide because of becoming beheaded.

One must choose who they will accept now, Jesus Christ , or may not be able to be part of the rapture of the church!
 
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BABerean2

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I have a quick question for the OP, The coming wrath is from God? and not necessarily the persecutions now being done to the church?
I certainly want to escape the coming wrath of God.

Those of the Dispensational or Pretrib persuasion usually insist that the entire trib is God's Wrath and we are not appointed to wrath. Therefore, we are out of here before the trib. There is just one problem. The idea does not match up with scripture.

Rev. 12:12 clearly states that some of the trib is Satan's wrath. God's Wrath is poured out on the unbelievers after we are gathered on the last day at the 7th trumpet.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Pretribbers also claim sometimes that Christ would not want a battered Bride. This is a complete denial of the persecution of the Church since it began, with the stoning of Stephen.

I cannot understand how American Christians can see news stories about our Brothers and Sisters in the middle east being slaughtered like cattle, but think we will never have to face the same persecution. It is called denial.

Prepare to see Satan's Wrath during the tribulation. However, we will be gathered before the Wrath of God on the last day of the tribulation.
 
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BABerean2

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I have a quick question for the OP, The coming wrath is from God? and not necessarily the persecutions now being done to the church?
I certainly want to escape the coming wrath of God.

Pastor Jim Brown from Tennessee is a preacher with a fluent knowledge of the Greek. Take a look at the last hour of this presentation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_-v3OrZBjg
 
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shturt678s

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The wrath of God will not be poured against Christ's believers (Christians) .Like the ten plagues of Egypt were not poured against God's people...

Exodus 8:22-23
22 And in that day I will set apart the land of Goshen, in which My people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there, in order that you may know that I am the Lord in the midst of the land. 23 I will make a difference[between My people and your people.

... so you don't have to fear God's wrath.Satan's wrath however is another matter who will be directed against Christians during the Great Tribulation when the Antichrist will have received full power by a treaty which he will sign with many nations (United Nations) and Israel.

Only an head's up. I have a difficult time understanding that God's wrath in IIThess.2:10b-12 is going to be poured out at some future time only to unbelievers in light of IIThess.2:3-4???

Thus the "Rapture" = "Parousia" = "The End"

Old Jack's less than an opinion,

btw I strongly feel God's wrath is more in the spiritual sphere with "delusions" now, this very moment, eg, Satan is personally bound in hell, however will be soon released (Rev.20:7). In the mean time God's wrath is being poured out through the antichristian power and propaganda (deceptive activity).

Looked at video and have to agree to disagree, however thank you...enjoyed.
 
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Riberra

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Only an head's up. I have a difficult time understanding that God's wrath in IIThess.2:10b-12 is going to be poured out at some future time only to unbelievers in light of IIThess.2:3-4???
I could be wrong but the whole
2 Thessalonians 2 chapter is rather a warning about Satan's coming deception -strong delusion- through the Antichrist...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+2&version=KJV

2 Thessalonians 2

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


 
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BABerean2

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2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

.
 
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shturt678s

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I could be wrong but the whole
2 Thessalonians 2 chapter is rather a warning about Satan's coming deception -strong delusion- through the Antichrist...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+2&version=KJV

2 Thessalonians 2

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



You could be in error, ie, I'm trying to remember when I wasn't in error in the sense of mixing truths with error...sorry Jesus! Thank you again.

IIThess.2:9, he the one whose parousia is according to Satan's working in connection with all power and signs and wonders of a life." We should always place more effort in getting a valid rendition before us.

It's plain that parousia does not mean "coming" (our inferior versions), but "presence" (A.V. margin) although the duration or presence is not indicated. How long the parousia or presence of the Antichrist will be endured by our Lord depends on our Lord of course.

By ascribing a parousia to the Antichrist is a parallel grammatically and contextually between him and Christ.

Sorry, got carried away as always have enjoyed this area too much,

Old Jack's opinion
 
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shturt678s

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2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

.

Only my rendition of IIThess.2:8, "...giving justice to those who do not know God..." Looking at the concept of "wrath" of coming to pass even this moment in light of Rom.1:18 only for openers.

God's wrath is the inevitable reaction of His rightiousness and holiness against all sin and unbelief. The term used with God is anthropopathic, clearly expressing the terrible reality that, when God is challenged by human sin and unbelief, God in accord with His very being must cast far from him those who persist challenging Him in unbelief even at this moment.

Old Jack's opinion
 
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iamlamad

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You could be in error, ie, I'm trying to remember when I wasn't in error in the sense of mixing truths with error...sorry Jesus! Thank you again.

IIThess.2:9, he the one whose parousia is according to Satan's working in connection with all power and signs and wonders of a life." We should always place more effort in getting a valid rendition before us.

It's plain that parousia does not mean "coming" (our inferior versions), but "presence" (A.V. margin) although the duration or presence is not indicated. How long the parousia or presence of the Antichrist will be endured by our Lord depends on our Lord of course.

By ascribing a parousia to the Antichrist is a parallel grammatically and contextually between him and Christ.

Sorry, got carried away as always have enjoyed this area too much,

Old Jack's opinion


Jesus WAS here on earth. He ascended back to heaven and IS NOT here now. However, He has promised that He will COME again. AFTER He comes, His PRESENCE here will certainly be true. He CANNOT be PRESENT unless He first COMES.

At the time Paul wrote, neither Jesus nor the man of sin had COME. However, the word of God promises us that both of these men will COME. When they come, their PRESENCE will be felt.

All English translations run about 99% for COMING with one "arrival" and one "appearing." Only Young held out for presence. He seems very overruled. So common sense tells us that his PRESENCE will not be here until he first COMES.

LAMAD
 
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iamlamad

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Only my rendition of IIThess.2:8, "...giving justice to those who do not know God..." Looking at the concept of "wrath" of coming to pass even this moment in light of Rom.1:18 only for openers.

God's wrath is the inevitable reaction of His rightiousness and holiness against all sin and unbelief. The term used with God is anthropopathic, clearly expressing the terrible reality that, when God is challenged by human sin and unbelief, God in accord with His very being must cast far from him those who persist challenging Him in unbelief even at this moment.

Old Jack's opinion

Why does Jack's opinion vary so much from the written word of God?
Did you not compare "with flaming fire" and Peter's version of the elements melting with fervent heat, and Paul's idea of the works of wood, hay and stubble being burned up? Jack, WAKE UP! This is FUTURE. The earth has not been purged with fire yet. I believe that will happen during the 70th week. God is an "all consuming fire." Thank God He is also Mercy!

LAMAD
 
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shturt678s

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Why does Jack's opinion vary so much from the written word of God?
Did you not compare "with flaming fire" and Peter's version of the elements melting with fervent heat, and Paul's idea of the works of wood, hay and stubble being burned up? Jack, WAKE UP! This is FUTURE. The earth has not been purged with fire yet. I believe that will happen during the 70th week. God is an "all consuming fire." Thank God He is also Mercy!

LAMAD

Hey, long time no see my brother..missed you and figured would get your attention....always appreciate your words and you.....first and foremost, my posit is only an inconvenient and uncomfortable opinion.

Old, of a lower paygrade, Jack
 
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BABerean2

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Two will be grinding flour. One taken. One left. As it was in the days.. people were eating and drinking. So it will be when the son of man is revealed.

Do you grind flour when hailstones are falling the size of your head?

Two will be grinding flour.

One taken. One left behind.

Now if that is not black and white for you.
Its because for 2000 years it has been in a book in clear black and white.

And still people miss the clarity.

Again here it is.

Two will be at the mill.
One will be taken.
One will be left.

The field is the end of days.
The reapers are the angels.
When the harvest is ready.
The angels will reap.

And as it was in the days of noah
So will it be
When the angels swoop down
And collect the harvest



Do you want to be taken or left behind?



Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The taken are eaten by the vultures.

I wonder if Tim LaHaye read this passage before he decided on the title of his pretrib book and movie series?


.
 
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Do you want to be taken or left behind?



Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The taken are eaten by the vultures.

I wonder if Tim LaHaye read this passage before he decided on the title of his pretrib book and movie series?


.

Who was luke written to?
is it for Jews or Christians?

the church was a mystery to the Jews.... and Paul unveiled the Mystery
 
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Danoh

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Do you want to be taken or left behind?



Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The taken are eaten by the vultures.

I wonder if Tim LaHaye read this passage before he decided on the title of his pretrib book and movie series?


.

Lol, that's why I am Mid-Acts Dispensational in contrast to LaHaye and company's Acts 2 Dispensationalism parroting :)
 
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dfw69

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So babearean thinks the ones raptured are taken to be slaughtered....and eaten by vultures...this is the fate of pre tribers?

And the ones left behind are the good guys...and they are gathered to Israel to serve the messiah.....I see..
 
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Danoh

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So babearean thinks the ones raptured are taken to be slaughtered....and eaten by vultures...this is the fate of pre tribers?

And the ones left behind are the good guys...and they are gathered to Israel to serve the messiah.....I see..

Actually, its the fate of its actual post tribbers...
 
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Danoh

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And, no, B.I.C., Matt. thru John, having been written to Israel, includes the election of that nation Christ said He was building His Messianic: Thou art the Christ, Assembly, or "church," on.

The Body is that assembly, or "church" that was the Mystery. But we've through this Acts 2 Dispensationalism error of yours and got nowhere, as you failed to examine the many distinctions between the two, including the difference between Matt. 3 "HE - CHRIST - shall baptize you WITH the Spirit," and Paul's 1 Cor. 12's "BY one SPIRIT are WE baptized INTO" the Body.

In theirs, CHRIST does the Baptizing WITH the Spirit, in the Body's, THE SPIRIT does the baptizing INTO the Body.

And then there is the issue of what the term "in Christ" means. Its a redemptive term - it refers to what God was doing at the Cross in Christ, as to BOTH, that which was Prophesied, as well as to that which Hw KEPT SECRET which are NOT the same.
 
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BABerean2

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Who was luke written to?
is it for Jews or Christians?

the church was a mystery to the Jews.... and Paul unveiled the Mystery

Christ knew the Apostles would be the leaders of His Church, because He could see the future. The Great Commission to the Church is at the end of Matthew's Gospel.

Almost all of the first Christians were Jews.

So, stop with Darby's "Rightly Dividing the Word" nonsense.

When Darby first told Brethren leader Benjamin Newton about his division of scripture, Newton told him he might as well abandon the Church and that this was worse than the secret rapture.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


.
 
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Danoh

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By your "logic" BAB, Columbus was wrong as to the Earth being round, as - FOR CENTURIES - few had believed it so.

By your logic, Martin Luther was wrong about Justification by Faith, as untold millions throughout Eutope had - FOR CENTURIES - believed otherwise.

By your logic, Roger Bannister was wrong to believe what practically no one before him had believed possible - that the 4 Minute Mile he proved possible - was possible.

By your logic, those noble Bereans had been wrong as to what was by the time of Acts 17:11, the commonly held consensus - that Christ had NOT been the Christ.

By your logic, Steve Jobs was wrong to have believed what IBM's, ingenious founder in his own right had believed impossible - the worldwide use of the Personal Computer one day.

By yours and Newton's "logic" Darby was wrong to have believed a doctrine Paul fights for throughout his writings ended up lost, as "all they which are of Asia be turned from me."

Darby was not wrong - you are. And B.I.C. is in his continued failure to further refine those distinctions Darby had only begun to see.

You call yourself BABerean, yeah, sure...
 
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