Rapture Before Wrath

[Bro in Christ]

]

 

[Bro in Christ]

Christ knew the Apostles would be the leaders of His Church, because He could see the future. The Great Commission to the Church is at the end of Matthew's Gospel.

True ... but what does an Law believer have to believe to become a Christian? both are saved but the body and Bride of Christ have the Best promises 2 peter 1:4, Heb 8:6, 11:39-40

Almost all of the first Christians were Jews.agreed
So, stop with Darby's "Rightly Dividing the Word" nonsense. so I should not compare scripture with scripture like God word calls all believers to do?

When Darby first told Brethren leader Benjamin Newton about his division of scripture, Newton told him he might as well abandon the Church and that this was worse than the secret rapture.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Newton is a baby believer or unsaved ...your point

 

[Bro in Christ]

By your "logic" And B.I.C. is in his continued failure to further refine those distinctions Darby had only begun to see.

You call yourself BABerean, yeah, sure...

2 tim 2:22-26 ..... when you want to compare scripture with scripture
I am not arguing with you

 

[BABerean2]

By your "logic" BAB, Columbus was wrong as to the Earth being round, as - FOR CENTURIES - few had believed it so.

By your logic, Martin Luther was wrong about Justification by Faith, as untold millions throughout Eutope had - FOR CENTURIES - believed otherwise.

By your logic, Roger Bannister was wrong to believe what practically no one before him had believed possible - that the 4 Minute Mile he proved possible - was possible.

By your logic, those noble Bereans had been wrong as to what was by the time of Acts 17:11, the commonly held consensus - that Christ had NOT been the Christ.

By your logic, Steve Jobs was wrong to have believed what IBM's, ingenious founder in his own right had believed impossible - the worldwide use of the Personal Computer one day.

By yours and Newton's "logic" Darby was wrong to have believed a doctrine Paul fights for throughout his writings ended up lost, as "all they which are of Asia be turned from me."

Darby was not wrong - you are. And B.I.C. is in his continued failure to further refine those distinctions Darby had only begun to see.

You call yourself BABerean, yeah, sure...

Danoh,

I must have touched a nerve. I sounds like the nerve is attached to John Nelson Darby.

The doctrine Darby brought to America had it's origin in a book written by a Jesuit priest named Manuel Lacunza and Edward Irving's English translation and publication of the book in 1827. His "Secret Rapture" doctrine had it's origin in the so-called "vision" of a teenage girl in 1830. This is the doctrine your are promoting. Most Dispensationalists have avoided the origin of their doctrine like the plague.

According to Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie, Darby became interested in prophecy at one of the Albury conferences. (page 170, "Dispensationalism" by Dr. Charles Ryrie, former professor at Dallas Theological Seminary) Edward Irving presented doctrine from the Jesuit book at the Albury conferences.

Watch the video in the link below, if you really want the truth.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

 

[Danoh]

Nope, Babs, no nerve touched, bro. You just wait and see - should anyone malign you on here while, I'm around, I will be the first to come to your defense. In short, Darby was not what I was addressing -

 

[Bible2]

setircopyh6etah6em6 said in post 173:

One taken. One left.

Note that Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

setircopyh6etah6em6 said in post 173:

As it was in the days.. people were eating and drinking.

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

 

[iamlamad]

True ... but what does an Law believer have to believe to become a Christian? both are saved but the body and Bride of Christ have the Best promises 2 peter 1:4, Heb 8:6, 11:39-40

Almost all of the first Christians were Jews.agreed
So, stop with Darby's "Rightly Dividing the Word" nonsense. so I should not compare scripture with scripture like God word calls all believers to do?

When Darby first told Brethren leader Benjamin Newton about his division of scripture, Newton told him he might as well abandon the Church and that this was worse than the secret rapture. [/color][/b]

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Newton is a baby believer or unsaved ...your point

WAIT! WHOA! STOP!

HOW do you know Jesus could "see the future?" Did you forget that Jesus laid aside His Godly attributes to become a MAN? ALL Jesus knew of the future was ONLY what the Holy Spirit had told Him. Remember, He only spoke what He HEARD. For example, He did not know who touched Him. At that time, I doubt if He knew the nation of Israel would reject Him as their Messiah and that God would turn to the Gentiles. We really don't know, because the gospels don't tell us.

So I would not have answered "true."

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Danoh,

I must have touched a nerve. I sounds like the nerve is attached to John Nelson Darby.

The doctrine Darby brought to America had it's origin in a book written by a Jesuit priest named Manuel Lacunza and Edward Irving's English translation and publication of the book in 1827. His "Secret Rapture" doctrine had it's origin in the so-called "vision" of a teenage girl in 1830. This is the doctrine your are promoting. Most Dispensationalists have avoided the origin of their doctrine like the plague.

According to Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie, Darby became interested in prophecy at one of the Albury conferences. (page 170, "Dispensationalism" by Dr. Charles Ryrie, former professor at Dallas Theological Seminary) Edward Irving presented doctrine from the Jesuit book at the Albury conferences.

Watch the video in the link below, if you really want the truth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

Perhaps the doctrine had it basis in the word of God. Did you ever think of this possibility? Perhaps Darby was a true Barean and studied to see of these things were true.

What Martin Luther nailed to the church door was EXTREMELY unpopular with the educated group of the day. But the basis of all it what He wrote was the BIBLE.

I think you want to pick on Darby because you don't believe what he wrote. Untold millions of believers today DO believe what he wrote, because they find dispensations clearly in the bible.

LAMAD

 

[shturt678s]

True ... but what does an Law believer have to believe to become a Christian? both are saved but the body and Bride of Christ have the Best promises 2 peter 1:4, Heb 8:6, 11:39-40


WAIT! WHOA! STOP!

HOW do you know Jesus could "see the future?" Did you forget that Jesus laid aside His Godly attributes to become a MAN? ALL Jesus knew of the future was ONLY what the Holy Spirit had told Him. Remember, He only spoke what He HEARD. For example, He did not know who touched Him. At that time, I doubt if He knew the nation of Israel would reject Him as their Messiah and that God would turn to the Gentiles. We really don't know, because the gospels don't tell us.

So I would not have answered "true."

LAMAD

Only head's up. Full speed ahead my brother!! The Godman Jesus was united with God at conception who was, is, and will be, in union with the other two divine Persons....His human nature was supported by his divine nature.... He knew everything even before creation.

Old Jack's opinion

btw regarding BABarean2's posit, better take notes, not only on the money, but coherent, lucid and to the point.

 

[ThomasGuthler]

---

 

[BABerean2]

True ... but what does an Law believer have to believe to become a Christian? both are saved but the body and Bride of Christ have the Best promises 2 peter 1:4, Heb 8:6, 11:39-40

Almost all of the first Christians were Jews.agreed
So, stop with Darby's "Rightly Dividing the Word" nonsense. so I should not compare scripture with scripture like God word calls all believers to do?

When Darby first told Brethren leader Benjamin Newton about his division of scripture, Newton told him he might as well abandon the Church and that this was worse than the secret rapture. [/COLOR][/B]

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Newton is a baby believer or unsaved ...your point

It is unfortunate that when we cannot win an argument sometimes we end up making a personal attack upon an individual.

Your labeling of Benjamin Newton as "a baby believer or unsaved" is a sad commentary.

He was known as one of the greatest Bible scholars of his day. Even modern scholars who may disagree with his eschatology have shown their respect for this man of God.

His number one sin in the view to some, was to disagree with John Darby.

The evidence of his service to Christ can be found in the link below.


John Nelson Darby and the Brethren Assemblies - Spreading

 

[Bro in Christ]

True ... but what does an Law believer have to believe to become a Christian? both are saved but the body and Bride of Christ have the Best promises 2 peter 1:4, Heb 8:6, 11:39-40


It is unfortunate that when we cannot win an argument sometimes we end up making a personal attack upon an individual.

Your labeling of Benjamin Newton as "a baby believer or unsaved" is a sad commentary.

He was known as one of the greatest Bible scholars of his day. Even modern scholars who may disagree with his eschatology have shown their respect for this man of God.

His number one sin in the view to some, was to disagree with John Darby.

The evidence of his service to Christ can be found in the link below.


John Nelson Darby and the Brethren Assemblies - Spreading

Mystery of 1 cor 15:51-53 is a maturity growth and to state that it will not happen states that he is a child according to 1 jn 2:14 since he does not abide in God's word

2 pt 1:20-21
Jn 1:1

 

[BABerean2]

Mystery of 1 cor 15:51-53 is a maturity growth and to state that it will not happen states that he is a child according to 1 jn 2:14 since he does not abide in God's word

2 pt 1:20-21
Jn 1:1

Please give me milk.

I am not ready for solid food, because I do not follow the teachings of John Nelson Darby.

I am a spiritual infant.

Brother, thank you for correcting me.

 

[Danoh]

Personally, I don't follow Darby, as I am Mid-Acts, and he was what: Matthew 16?

He was also of the persuasion that the Body of Christ is the Bride of Christ. I am not.

And also...

 

[BABerean2]

Personally, I don't follow Darby, as I am Mid-Acts, and he was what: Matthew 16?

He was also of the persuasion that the Body of Christ is the Bride of Christ. I am not.

And also...

In studying Dispensational Theology it has become obvious that some want to distance themselves from Darby, however most dispensationalists are not willing to completely give up on the doctrine. It is as if they are trying to remove the rotten parts of the fruit. Progressive Dispensationalism is one example. Many of them have abandoned the pretrib doctrine, but cling to what remains.

I will have to admit, your stand on "Mid-Acts" was a new one to me.

The following is the opinion of Jerry Johnson, who is a former dispensationalist.
Not only did he let go of it, but he is sounding the alarm about Darby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYTEwt0oAd0

 

[TPeterY]

In studying Dispensational Theology it has become obvious that some want to distance themselves from Darby, however most dispensationalists are not willing to completely give up on the doctrine. It is as if they are trying to remove the rotten parts of the fruit. Progressive Dispensationalism is one example. Many of them have abandoned the pretrib doctrine, but cling to what remains.

I will have to admit, your stand on "Mid-Acts" was a new one to me.

The following is the opinion of Jerry Johnson, who is a former dispensationalist.
Not only did he let go of it, but he is sounding the alarm about Darby.

So Babarean, so far you've given us names of so many people that supports the Pre-Trib theory. People like John Darby, Tim LaHaye, Martin Luther, Margaret MacDonald, Grant Jefferies, Manuel Lacunza and Benjamin Newton. That's a lot of famous dispensationalist.

Now, can you name one famous person on your side of the fence that support your eschatology of Christ returning at the 7th trumpet? (other then Irvin Baxter)

:o ......I didn't think so!

By the way, Christ returning at the 7th trumpet does not make you post-trib. You might want to consult with them about it.


.

 

[shturt678s]

So Babarean, so far you've given us names of so many people that supports the Pre-Trib theory. People like John Darby, Tim LaHaye, Martin Luther, Margaret MacDonald, Grant Jefferies, Manuel Lacunza and Benjamin Newton. That's a lot of famous dispensationalist.

Now, can you name one famous person on your side of the fence that support your eschatology of Christ returning at the 7th trumpet? (other then Irvin Baxter)

:o ......I didn't think so!

By the way, Christ returning at the 7th trumpet does not make you post-trib. You might want to consult with them about it.


.

I'm in full support of BABarean's posts and even of a lower paygrade than the antithesis of any scholar thus cannot get any lower than my opinion.

Old Jack's lower of the lowest paygrade's opinion

Always appreciate your words and you sir

 

[TPeterY]

I'm in full support of BABarean's posts and even of a lower paygrade than the antithesis of any scholar thus cannot get any lower than my opinion.

Old Jack's lower of the lowest paygrade's opinion

Always appreciate your words and you sir

You're an exception to the rules, so thanks for replying.

 

[BABerean2]

So Babarean, so far you've given us names of so many people that supports the Pre-Trib theory. People like John Darby, Tim LaHaye, Martin Luther, Margaret MacDonald, Grant Jefferies, Manuel Lacunza and Benjamin Newton. That's a lot of famous dispensationalist.

Now, can you name one famous person on your side of the fence that support your eschatology of Christ returning at the 7th trumpet? (other then Irvin Baxter)

:o ......I didn't think so!

By the way, Christ returning at the 7th trumpet does not make you post-trib. You might want to consult with them about it.


.

Have you ever heard of Charles Haddon Spurgeon? He is probably the most famous Baptist pastor of all time.

Pastor Tim Warner of Oasis Church in Florida has done a great deal to expose the history of the pretrib doctrine, in recent years.

I was not aware that Martin Luther supported a pretrib rapture. If you have any evidence of that, I would like to see it.

Benjamin Newton was totally opposed to the "Secret Rapture". It was one of the main issues that caused the split between Newton and Darby.

I am not sure about Manuel Lacunza. His book may have started Dispensational Theology, but I did not realize he supported the pretrib doctrine. I am also amazed that you would even acknowledge the part he played in the origin of your doctrine. Most of the dispensational scholars on this forum would probably be upset with you.

You may want to recheck your facts next time before you make bold statements like " I didn't think so!"

It shows a lack of humility, Brother. That always gets us into trouble.

I will agree in one way that the worst part of the trib for unbelievers will be on the last day when Christ returns in flaming fire.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

.

 

[shturt678s]

You're an exception to the rules, so thanks for replying.

Have always respected your views my brother,

Thank you again,

Old Jack