Rapture Before Wrath

[n2thelight]

You have been shown many times - and ignore it every time, wishing to stay in your false doctrine. You ERR in comparing the days of GT spoken of by Jesus with ANY OTHER period of tribulation. May I suggest that you came out on Luke 21:36 until you understand it?

Lamad

Like I said,show me one verse in scripture where it says we escape tribulation?

Also the Church is not holding back the lawless one, Michael is....

You also err in your definition of apostasy

Apostasy in Christianity refers to the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian. The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia ("ἀποστασία") meaning defection, departure, revolt or rebellion. It has been described as "a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christianity. Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian...."[2] "Apostasy is a theological category describing those who have voluntarily and consciously abandoned their faith in the God of the covenant, who manifests himself most completely in Jesus Christ."[3] "Apostasy is the antonym of conversion; it is deconversion."[1]
According to B. J. Oropeza, the warning passages in the New Testament describe at least three dangers which could lead a Christian to commit apostasy:[4]

Temptations: Christians were tempted to engage in various vices that were a part of their lives before they became Christians (idolatry, sexual immorality, covetousness, etc.).

Deceptions: Christians encountered various heresies and false teachings spread by false teachers and prophets that threatened to seduce them away from their pure devotion to Christ.

Persecutions: Christians were persecuted by the governing powers of the day for their allegiance to Christ. Many Christians were threatened with certain death if they would not deny Christ.


As for the beast,satan goes by many names learn them and then get back with me...
​

 

[Riberra]

From post#114
Ted, this is a passage that will not be understood with a first reading.

First we must understand that what Paul actually wrote was:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for - except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Most translators added some text - and we can only guess that their added text was Paul's meaning. In fact, I suspect it is. They tipically add: "that Day will not come". WHAT day? What day did Paul just mention? From your text: "the day of the Lord has already come" So Paul was referring back to the "Day of the Lord." However, some Greek texts have it as "the Day of Christ." Which is correct? We don't know. Neither do we know, in Paul's mind, if there was a difference. Already we can see that this text is really ambiguous and not the best text for doctrine.

Next, we MUST understand that the THEME of this passage is the gathering.

(Amplified) 1 BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,

Therefore, the CORRECT theory of what Paul is telling us MUST include the gathering.

Now let's get into verse 3:
I like NASB. "IT" that is the day of the Lord "Will NOT COME Unless the apostasy comes first," so that the man of sin can be revealed.

But the real question here is, what did Paul mean by the Greek word "Apostasia?" Many people puzzle over it, yet there is no need, because in three parallel verses Paul clearly tells us. Notice in this very verse, SOMETHING must occur FIRST, before the man of sin can be revealed. Look VERY CLOSE: only ONE THING comes FIRST:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, (KJV)

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first (ESV)

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first (NASB)

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first (HCSB)

3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first (ASV)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first (DRB)

3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first (YLT)

So there is only ONE THING that must come first. And that one thing is hidden in Paul's use of the word Apostasia. Then, AFTER that one thing, the apostasia, then the man of sin can be revealed.
......
When using the word "departing" in verse 3 above, the subsequent verses coincide and restate the same events. We have three similar statements on the removal of the Church first, and then the revealing of the antichrist.

LAMAD

Lamad there is a very easy way to avoid confusion about the word Apostasy.
Stick to KJV
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, (KJV)

Apostasy = falling away / departure from the Faith in Jesus Christ .

Not a departure (rapture)from the Earth before the Great Tribulation...

 

[Danoh]

I've asked 1st generation Greeks what that word "aspostasia" means to them now. To a man, they have asserted that it still refers to the act of leaving, regardless of what said departure might be from.

Thus, the actual sense of 2 Thess. 2:2's departure, will have to rely on all that Paul had taught this side of his "my gospel... the preaching of the grace of God... according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now... through preaching committed unto me... is made manifest, Rom. 16; Acts 20; Titus 1.

Per 2 Thess., he had shared issues set forth in Daniel. Daniel 8 and 9 speak of a departure from the God of Israel, on the part of that nation as to their being led into that departure "through flatteries" Daniel 8, of that, "prince that shall come," Daniel 9.

Further why doesn't Paul refer to 2 Thess. 2:1's coming and gathering as "that day" rather than the redundant "day of Christ" if he is referring to the same day both, in verse 1 and 2?

Instead, he attaches his phrase "that day" to verse two's event - because verse one and two are not the same event, anymore than verse two's departure is a reference to the gathering of verse one, which, by the time of verse two's departure, verse one's gathering has long since taken place.

Verse two's departure is per Paul's assertion that while he was yet with them he had shared Daniel's prophetic timeline with them.

If this is not enough to get you guys going, lol, Paul is also relating that "the mystery of iniquity" RESTRAINED by he who "doth already work" at holding iniquity from fully abounding, Matt. 24, "only he who" is "now" holding said full blown rebellion from reaching this world "end, and... sign of Thy coming" will hold it back "until he" what God is doing through His one new man, "be taken out of the way."

In short, just one more of those mysteries particular to the Mystery of Christ unique to Paul's "my gospel."

Wherein, because the Body is not under the law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14, it has been deliverd from Israel's wrath to come, per Daniel 9.

 

[iamlamad]

Like I said,show me one verse in scripture where it says we escape tribulation?

You are STILL missing it. Jesus told us there will be days of GREAT TRIBULATION worse than any time before or after. It is these special days of GT that God will allow us to escape from. They will come during the same time God will be pouring out His wrath, and we cannot be here for that, for God will not set an appointment for us with His wrath; rather, He will pull His Bride out of this world. As I said, you need to camp out on Luk. 21:36

Also the Church is not holding back the lawless one, Michael is....

Complete nonsense. There is not one shred of biblical proof for this. Second, there IS scripture of the church through which the Holy Spirit works being "taken out of the way." Why not believe what is written, instead of coming up with some theory that is not scriptural?

You also err in your definition of apostasy

Apostasy in Christianity refers to the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian. The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia ("ἀποστασία") meaning defection, departure, revolt or rebellion. It has been described as "a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christianity. Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian...."[2] "Apostasy is a theological category describing those who have voluntarily and consciously abandoned their faith in the God of the covenant, who manifests himself most completely in Jesus Christ."[3] "Apostasy is the antonym of conversion; it is deconversion."[1]
According to B. J. Oropeza, the warning passages in the New Testament describe at least three dangers which could lead a Christian to commit apostasy:[4]

Temptations: Christians were tempted to engage in various vices that were a part of their lives before they became Christians (idolatry, sexual immorality, covetousness, etc.).

Deceptions: Christians encountered various heresies and false teachings spread by false teachers and prophets that threatened to seduce them away from their pure devotion to Christ.

Persecutions: Christians were persecuted by the governing powers of the day for their allegiance to Christ. Many Christians were threatened with certain death if they would not deny Christ.


As for the beast,satan goes by many names learn them and then get back with me...
​

Paul came up with a different meaning for the Greek Apostasia. It is a compound word. Have you looked up the two words that this word comes from and see what they mean?

Your preconceived glasses are extrememly thick: it is a wonder you can see at all.

Did you just not notice that the Beast was thrown into the lake of fire in one place, then LATER Satan was bound and MUCH later was himself cast into the lake of fire? Do you imagine he crawled out of the lake of fire? How do you come up with such silliness? They are TWO separate beings. Did you just totally MISS this verse?

Rev. 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.


LAMAD

 

[Bible2]

n2thelight said in post 117:

The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy".

That's right, the "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

n2thelight said in post 117:

Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names . . .

Note that in Revelation 9:11, Abaddon/Apollyon could be a powerful fallen angel whom Satan has assigned to rule the bottomless pit, and to serve as king over the strange locust-like beings who now reside there (Revelation 9:2-11). Satan could be allowed to release the locust-like beings (and their fallen angelic king, Abaddon) to torment mankind for 5 literal months (Revelation 9:1-11) at one point during the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Abaddon doesn't have to be Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), just as the 4 fallen angels who will be in charge of the 200 million strange horse-like beings who will subsequently kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:14-19) don't have to be Satan.

n2thelight said in post 117:

He is Satan the Antichrist.

Note that Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) isn't the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), but the one who will empower the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), and who will be worshiped along with the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire over 1,000 years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20 to 20:10). The Antichrist and Satan are shown to be separate persons also in Revelation 16:13. But Satan could spiritually enter the man who is the Antichrist, just as Satan spiritually entered Judas (Luke 22:3).

n2thelight said in post 117:

. . . Satan himself, coming to earth to play the role of Jesus Christ.

Note that when Satan (Lucifer, the dragon) is cast down to the earth permanently at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 12:9,12), he won't claim to be "Jesus" Christ, just as the separate Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast, the man of sin: 2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) won't claim that Lucifer (or claim that he, the Antichrist) is "Jesus" Christ. For "anti"-Christ means someone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

n2thelight said in post 117:

This is not me talking, but Paul; for he is warning you to be watching out for the Antichrist, for he is a copy of exactly what you expect of Christ.

Note that "anti"-Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in any "opponent of the Messiah" (Strong's Greek Dictionary, Word #500: antichristos), as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

Note that nothing requires that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ. For his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (i.e. the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

But none of this means that there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a), promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

*******

n2thelight said in post 118:

Yes we will escape His wrath,however we shall not escape the tribulation that shall come upon the entire earth,which is the tribulation of satan...

That's right, in that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 120:

They had been correctly taught by Paul that the rapture would take place first, before the Day of the Lord.

Note that Paul nowhere teaches that, for the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 120:

Then along came some false teachers telling them they were already IN the day of the Lord - it had already begun and they were in it. So what were they thinking?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the day of the Lord/Christ is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the 2nd coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 120:

Perhaps they even thought that Paul had been caught up and they were left behind.

Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that these passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

iamlamad said in post 120:

This is exactly the way it will be when the real pretrib rapture takes place . . .

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

iamlamad said in post 120:

First the departure or apostasia must take place so the one restraining the revealing can be "taken out of the way," . . .

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

iamlamad said in post 120:

First the departure or apostasia must take place so the one restraining the revealing can be "taken out of the way," and then the man of sin be revealed."

2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things that has to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the 2nd coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

iamlamad said in post 120:

Of course Jesus will COME for the rapture, but only to the sky.

Note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires that Jesus won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it is still the same 2nd coming as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21, there is no explicit descent to the earth, even though it is the same 2nd coming as Zechariah 14:3-5, which has no explicit white horse.

iamlamad said in post 120:

May I suggest that you came out on Luke 21:36 until you understand it?

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

*******

iamlamad said in post 124:

God will not set an appointment for us with His wrath . . .

That's right, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). But note that even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

iamlamad said in post 124:

He will pull His Bride out of this world.

Note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad there is a very easy way to avoid confusion about the word Apostasy.
Stick to KJV
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, (KJV)

Apostasy = falling away / departure from the Faith in Jesus Christ .

Not a departure (rapture)from the Earth before the Great Tribulation...

I have no confusion over this word. Did you ever take time to research it? It is a compound word in the Greek:

from Greek Lexicon:
Apo: of separation

1. of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
2. of separation of a part from the whole
   
   1. where of a whole some part is taken

Just in case your preconceived glasses are too thick, this perfectly describes the rapture of the Bride, where OF A WHOLE, some part is taken. Notice Paul also wrote, "TAKEN out of the way."

Stasia has two meanings: one is a "standing" as in stationary. The other meaning is resurrection.

There you have it: a group is taken from a whole, from where they are standing (it is instantaneous) and it is a resurrection.

Therefore this Greek word can most certainly be used for the departing of the church, and that is exactly the way Paul used it. If you consider the context, it is the only meaning that makes sense. A "falling away" does not equate with "taken out of the way."

LAMAD

 

[bibletruth469]

Our gathering happens at the same time as His wrath,the problem is many mistake His wrath for tribulation,yet they are totally different...Yes we will escape His wrath,however we shall not escape the tribulation that shall come upon the entire earth,which is the tribulation of satan.... So the question should be what is tribulation...Scripture is clear as to Christians going through tribulation,it's been happening all throughout the Bible John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; 2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 2 Corinthians 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation. Ephesians 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. 1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. 2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, In the above verses,all I see are Christians being told to endure tribulations,how then do you all (rapturist)feel you shall escape it?Nowehere in scripture is it said that Christians escape tribulations,if I'm wrong,please show me the verse............ Now let's look at His wrath Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" What day is His wrath,simple,same as the Day of the Lord,ie,His 2nd coming Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." The 7th trump starts the Day of the Lord,again His 2nd coming Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." The fact is God's wrath comes after the tribulation,as they are not the same,so my question is,why do you all (rapturist)think you shall escape the tribulation????

I believe it depends on the context of the passage when it comes to understanding the difference between the words wrath and tribulation in our current bible translations. The above scripture references prove that point.

Escaping the trials and tribulations of this life is very different than escaping the ( wrath or tribulation ) mentioned in places like the book of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks , being that the last seven year period has not begun yet.( the 70 th week). Many believe that this is the tribulation time frame. Whether one calls it the time of wrath or the tribulation , this time period means the same thing in this passage. One can compare to the, tribulation or wrath mentioned in the book of revelation to the prophecy found in the book of Daniel .

In the OP, I mentioned a couple of verses that I believe are pre tribulation verses. There is a great debate on both sides to whether the tribulation happens before or after the tribulation ( wrath ). Both have their points of view, however I personally believe that when one studies the scripture as a whole, the pre tribulation view makes more sense.

 

[shturt678s]

Thank you folks for caring!

Keeping things in perspective, that is, to start with Dan.9:25, "seven heptads," began at 538 B.C. ending with the 1st Coming of our Lord.

Rev.7:14 began at 70 A.D. in light of Lk.21:24 ending at the forthcoming of our Lord (Parousia) at the end of time as we know it without an intervening "Rapture."

Old Jack just thinking out loud again

 

[Bro in Christ]

Thank you folks for caring!

Keeping things in perspective, that is, to start with Dan.9:25, "seven heptads," began at 538 B.C. ending with the 1st Coming of our Lord.

Rev.7:14 began at 70 A.D. in light of Lk.21:24 ending at the forthcoming of our Lord (Parousia) at the end of time as we know it without an intervening "Rapture."

Old Jack just thinking out loud again

Just think out loud...

So when the church is promised 5 crowns in the scriptures and they are fulfilled in heaven by the Lord in rev 4 ....

Would this not be a departure of the church since the Holy Spirit is in heaven and would stay with the church till Christ call us home... According to John 13-16

 

[shturt678s]

Just think out loud...

So when the church is promised 5 crowns in the scriptures and they are fulfilled in heaven by the Lord in rev 4 ....

Would this not be a departure of the church since the Holy Spirit is in heaven and would stay with the church till Christ call us home... According to John 13-16

Only a head's up, the Holy Spirit is here on earth waaay back at Pentecost.

Old Jack

 

[BABerean2]

Just think out loud...

So when the church is promised 5 crowns in the scriptures and they are fulfilled in heaven by the Lord in rev 4 ....

Would this not be a departure of the church since the Holy Spirit is in heaven and would stay with the church till Christ call us home... According to John 13-16

The problem with your viewpoint is the assumption that just because John sees Christians in heaven, then that must mean all of the Church is in heaven. The souls of all of the Apostles and millions of others are there now. However, it does not mean that all of the Church is there.


Also, there is a tremendous problem in a pretrib removal of the Holy Spirit. We know those who have the witness of Christ are present during the trib. Therefore the Holy Spirit must be with them.

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

 

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 128:

In the OP, I mentioned a couple of verses that I believe are pre tribulation verses.

*******

bibletruth469 referred in post 1 to:

Titus 2:13

Note that the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

bibletruth469 referred in post 1 to:

Isaiah 26:19-21

Note that Isaiah 26:20 can start a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in the KJV. And so nothing requires that Isaiah 26:20-21 has to happen after Isaiah 26:19. Instead, Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

bibletruth469 said in post 1:

Look at rev 3:10 . . .

Note that the 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

bibletruth469 quoted in post 1:

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 thess 4:17-18.

The comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, but their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their physical bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they are going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

 

[Bible2]

Bro in Christ said in post 130:

So when the church is promised 5 crowns in the scriptures and they are fulfilled in heaven by the Lord in rev 4 ....

Are you thinking of the crowned 24 elders (Revelation 4:4)? If so, note that they could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

 

[iamlamad]

The problem with your viewpoint is the assumption that just because John sees Christians in heaven, then that must mean all of the Church is in heaven. The souls of all of the Apostles and millions of others are there now. However, it does not mean that all of the Church is there.


Also, there is a tremendous problem in a pretrib removal of the Holy Spirit. We know those who have the witness of Christ are present during the trib. Therefore the Holy Spirit must be with them.

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Not a problem at all, much less a tremendous problem. How was life before the day of Pentecost? Did people serve God? Of course they did. Remember the disciples followed Jesus until He died, all before the day of Pentecost.


LAMAD

 

[Bro in Christ]

Only a head's up, the Holy Spirit is here on earth waaay back at Pentecost.

Old Jack

Agreed but in rev 4 there is. A change

 

[Bro in Christ]

The problem with your viewpoint is the assumption that just because John sees Christians in heaven, then that must mean all of the Church is in heaven. The souls of all of the Apostles and millions of others are there now. However, it does not mean that all of the Church is there.

1 cor 15:22-24 clear this up... Three different resurrections

Also, there is a tremendous problem in a pretrib removal of the Holy Spirit. We know those who have the witness of Christ are present during the trib. Therefore the Holy Spirit must be with them.
[\QUOTE]. Verse to state this... The three persons of the God head change jobs according to the fathers will

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

 

[shturt678s]

Agreed but in rev 4 there is. A change

I don't see a change at Rev.4:2, ie, Rev.4:2b, "....And lo, a throne was standing in the heaven, and upon the throne One sitting,.... which is God now, and in light of Rev.3:21, the Lord is sitting in His throne with His Father. The Holy Spirit is down here on earth thus what's the change?

Old Jack that changed after he was "born anew."

btw at Rev.4:2, John remained right where he was yet John, like Paul, "in spirit" was there in heaven. To project Rev. chapters 4-22 off to some future time out of touch with us today is not a good thing.

 

[Bible2]

Bro in Christ said in post 137:

1 cor 15:22-24 clear this up... Three different resurrections

That brings to mind the 3 stages of a harvest: firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 physical resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits physical resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23); 2. the future physical resurrection of the entire church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and right before the millennium (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the physical resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

 

[shturt678s]

Only a head's up, ICor.15:20, "first fruits" is the figure of "the first fruits" suggests the image of a great harvest which is ushered in by the first sheaf that is presented as an offering to God of course. Contextually God sees us as already raised with no interval of time between. As certainly as Christ was raised, so certainly shall we be raised.

Old Jack's opinion