Rapture Before Wrath

[bibletruth469]

The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet. The "mystery" is also found in 1st Cor. chapter 15. 1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. If the "mystery of God" in the verse below is not the Church or the rapture, then what is it in your opinion? Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The 7th trumpet is the time that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ. Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. .

I disagree with the view that the 7th trumpet of revelation 11:15-19 is the same as the last trumpet in 1 cor 15:52. The trumpet judgements of revelation all have to do with judgements during the tribulation sounded by an angel, while in the Corinthian passage, it no way is about judgement but concerns the church. This trumpet at the rapture in contrast is sounded by God not an angel. They are different trumpets.

 

[Tellastory]

keras - Thank You - but not necessary.
People don't want to hear that they aren't special. Far too many of them would prefer to hear the fairy tale that they are going to be whisked away from harm when, in fact, Jesus said that "MANY will be deceived" and even the Elect would be deceived if that were possible.
By "many', He wasn't talking about atheists, Muslims, or members of any other religion. He was talking about HIS followers.
If MILLIONS of people suddenly vanished, WHO would be deceived? - NO ONE.

It is true that not every saved believers will be found abiding in Him & His words since Jesus was warning His followers, but that does not mean there is no pre trib rapture; rather the necessity for abiding in Him is the cause for running that race for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honour in His House by looking to the author & finisher of our faith in helping us lay aside every weight & sin to avoid being a castaway.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

That is why God will be judging His House first at the pre trib rapture event to restore those astray and unrepentant saved believers back to the path of righteousness for His name's sake for He is the Good Shepherd.

Those saints left behind shall be received later as vessels unto dishonour in His House for not looking to Him for help in departing from iniquity.

So there is cause to be concern because not every saved believer will be ready to go as God will judge what we have built on that foundation. Those that trust the Lord as their Good Shepherd to help them abide in His words as kept by those that loved Him & His words in the KJV as the Lord will reveal that too, shall not be put to shame.

1 Thessalonians 5: 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[BABerean2]

I disagree with the view that the 7th trumpet of revelation 11:15-19 is the same as the last trumpet in 1 cor 15:52. The trumpet judgements of revelation all have to do with judgements during the tribulation sounded by an angel, while in the Corinthian passage, it no way is about judgement but concerns the church. This trumpet at the rapture in contrast is sounded by God not an angel. They are different trumpets.

You are demonstrating the scriptural gymnastics that are required to get the pretrib doctrine to work.

Get out a dictionary and look up the word "last".

You also avoided Rev. 10:7.

What do you believe "the mystery of God" to be in Rev. 10:7?

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

.

 

[John S]

It is true that not every saved believers will be found abiding in Him & His words since Jesus was warning His followers, but that does not mean there is no pre trib rapture; rather the necessity for abiding in Him is the cause for running that race for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honour in His House by looking to the author & finisher of our faith in helping us lay aside every weight & sin to avoid being a castaway.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

That is why God will be judging His House first at the pre trib rapture event to restore those astray and unrepentant saved believers back to the path of righteousness for His name's sake for He is the Good Shepherd.

Those saints left behind shall be received later as vessels unto dishonour in His House for not looking to Him for help in departing from iniquity.

So there is cause to be concern because not every saved believer will be ready to go as God will judge what we have built on that foundation. Those that trust the Lord as their Good Shepherd to help them abide in His words as kept by those that loved Him & His words in the KJV as the Lord will reveal that too, shall not be put to shame.

1 Thessalonians 5: 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

1. NO ONE is "saved" until we die and then GOD determines that we are worthy of going to Heaven. To claim that one is "saved" means that WE have decided that we are going to Heaven, regardless of what God thinks. In other words, those people who claim to be "saved" are making the claim that they are above God, which is blasphemy.
2. The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is a false, Satanic deception.

 

[bibletruth469]

Wrath and tribulation are not really synonyms in the bible. wrath is about God's judgement while tribulation is about worldly persecution meted out against Christians. The bible constantly warns Christians to expect trials and tribulation for their faith in Jesus Christ and assures Christians that because of their union with Jesus Christ they are freed from the wrath that is to come.

The 7 year tribulation period will be like no other time in history. We do not mean the trails and terrible persecution and the loss of life by many believers on earth now . It will be a time period far worse .The people who are left behind will experience the seals, trumpets and vials mentioned in revelation . Believers who come to faith in Christ will have to be hiding from the antiichrist who will enforce everyone to take the mark of the beast . The ones who refuse will not be able to buy or sell or those believers will be beheaded. It is far better to accept Christ now and be on this side of the rapture , then to accept after the rapture . You may not have a choice in making that decision . Millions unfortunately die every day without Christ . Now is the time to accept Christ as savior !

 

[MoreCoffee]

The 7 year tribulation period will be like no other time in history. We do not mean the trials and terrible persecution and the loss of life by many believers on earth now . It will be a time period far worse .The people who are left behind will experience the seals, trumpets and vials mentioned in revelation . Believers who come to faith in Christ will have to be hiding from the Antichrist who will enforce everyone to take the mark of the beast . The ones who refuse will not be able to buy or sell or those believers will be beheaded. It is far better to accept Christ now and be on this side of the rapture , then to accept after the rapture . You may not have a choice in making that decision . Millions unfortunately die every day without Christ . Now is the time to accept Christ as savior !

Your post sounds like the script from one of those Kirk Cameron films. It doesn't sound even remotely biblical.

Watch the following video from youtube; you might want to copy the url and open it in a browser window so you can adjust the definition to 720p or 1080p. It may be informative and interesting for you.
After the Tribulation (Full Movie) - Alex Jones - YouTube
I do not endorse the views expressed in it but it makes some very telling points about the kind of eschatology your post reflects.

 

[shturt678s]

1. NO ONE is "saved" until we die and then GOD determines that we are worthy of going to Heaven. To claim that one is "saved" means that WE have decided that we are going to Heaven, regardless of what God thinks. In other words, those people who claim to be "saved" are making the claim that they are above God, which is blasphemy.
2. The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is a false, Satanic deception.

We are "saved," "being saved," and "shall be saved." Secret and forensic judgment from our Lord in heaven upon each one's passing. Public at the end of time.

BTW fully agree to your post.

MoreCoffee long time no see, ie, actually missed you and do agree with your post also not that I'm of a higher paygrade.

Old Jack

 

[TPeterY]

The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet. The "mystery" is also found in 1st Cor. chapter 15.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


If the "mystery of God" in the verse below is not the Church or the rapture, then what is it in your opinion?

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


The 7th trumpet is the time that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Kaboom....bubble just burst!

Just as there are more then one trumpet sounding throughout the bible, there are more then one mystery.

The last trump is not the 7th trump just as the mystery of Rev:7 is not the mystery of 1 Cor 15:51.

Here's Rev 10:7. God gave the mysteries to His prophets in the OT that are to be revealed in the last days.

Revelation 10:7 (NKJV)
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.


Here's the whole chapter of Daniel 12 --- one of the prophets, and one of the mysteries.

Daniel 12 (NKJV)
Prophecy of the End Time
1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”


You can't just pick a word like "mystery" in one scripture and think it means the same as another scripture that uses the same word.

You'll find other mysteries of Rev 10 also in the OT.


.

 

[BABerean2]

Kaboom....bubble just burst!

Just as there are more then one trumpet sounding throughout the bible, there are more then one mystery.

The last trump is not the 7th trump just as the mystery of Rev:7 is not the mystery of 1 Cor 15:51.

Here's Rev 10:7. God gave the mysteries to His prophets in the OT that are to be revealed in the last days.

Revelation 10:7 (NKJV)
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.


Here's the whole chapter of Daniel 12 --- one of the prophets, and one of the mysteries.

Daniel 12 (NKJV)
Prophecy of the End Time
1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”


You can't just pick a word like "mystery" in one scripture and think it means the same as another scripture that uses the same word.

You'll find other mysteries of Rev 10 also in the OT.


.

Daniel is clearly speaking of the resurrection.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Christ states the same thing in John chapter 5.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I agree that Rev. 10:7 is also speaking of the resurrection, at the 7th trumpet.

It is strange that this is at least the 2nd time you have attempted to discredit my post and instead have confirmed it.

Pride has a way of reversing things, sometimes.


Nice work, Brother.

What was that word you used ?


Oh, yes, I remember now it was... Kaboom ! (That would be a loud bubble!)


Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


No, Brother, the trumpet will make a different sound when the 7th trumpet sounds to begin the resurrection of the dead, on the last day.

 

[keras]

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 About dates and times, my friends, there is no need for me to write to you, for you know perfectly well that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. Bible References: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.
The Day that Paul is talking about here cannot be the same Day as he mentions in 1 Thess. 4:13-18, or later in 2 Thess. 1-8 where he says that the Day Jesus Returns will not come until the Anti-Christ is revealed and enthrones himself in the Temple. We read in Rev. 13:5 that the Anti-Christ is allowed to continue for 42 months, then Jesus will Return and chain him up for 1000 years. This time period is confirmed by Daniel 12:7 and again in Rev. 12:6 as 1260 days. [The three and a half year Great Tribulation]
Therefore those who are alive when the Anti-Christ declares himself to be God in the new Temple, can know exactly how long it will be before Jesus will Return. That glorious event should not be unexpected for them.
So what Day is Paul talking about in 1 Thess. 5:1:2? It is NOT the Return of Jesus on the Great Day of the Sovereign Lord, Rev. 16:14 and as described in Zechariah 14:3-5, Matthew 24:30, or Rev. 19:11-14, but it IS the terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath – a Day that will come unexpectedly. Isaiah 29:5-6 …suddenly, in an instant punishment will come from the Lord, with a great noise, storms, earthquakes and a devouring fire. Psalm 73:19, Jer. 4:20, Psalm 6:10
1 Thess.5:3 While they are saying: All is peaceful, we are safe, sudden destruction will come upon them and there will be no escape. Ezekiel 7:16, Romans 2:3
It seems that just before this terrible Day, there may be some kind of peace agreement made between the State of Israel and the Islamic nations surrounding it. The world will breathe a sigh of relief, but as we are told in Psalm 144:11…their every word is worthless, every oath is false. They will simply use that time of lessened vigilance to commence their attack. The moment of attack is the trigger for the Lord to arise and instigate His judgement/punishment by a massive CME sunstrike.Isa.30:26
2 Thess. 1:8 In flaming fire, the Lord Jesus will mete out punishment to all those who refuse to acknowledge their Creator and do not obey Him. Hebrews 10:27
1 Thess. 5:4-9 But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that this Day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light, we do not belong in the darkness. So then let us keep sober and alert, armed with the breastplate of faith and love, and with the hope of salvation as a helmet. God has not destined us to suffer His wrath, but for the full attainment of salvation through our Lord, Jesus Christ. Rev. 3:10

The punishment of the nations, the next prophesied event, the sixth seal - Rev 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21, Jer. 23:19, Ezekiel 30:2-5, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:10 and many other vivid prophecies, that will literally be fulfilled on that Day of disaster for all the world. Everyone will be affected, Luke 21:35, and huge numbers of people will die. Isaiah 66:16, Jer. 9:22, Matthew 24:40. It will be God’s second ‘reset of civilization’, an event similar in scope to the flood in Noah’s day. At that time, really only Noah knew what was going to happen, now only just a very few understand the truth, as Daniel 12:10 says. Matthew 24:37-39
We, who believe in God, trust Jesus for our salvation and rely on His protection, have the promise of 1 Thess. 5:9 that we will not suffer His wrath. As I believe this event will be so devastating and deadly, it will only be something like a paraphysical shift into another dimension that will enable His people to survive. That this is a possibility, we see from Daniel 3:19-27 and Isaiah 43:2.

 

[shturt678s]

Daniel is clearly speaking of the resurrection.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Christ states the same thing in John chapter 5.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I agree that Rev. 10:7 is also speaking of the resurrection, at the 7th trumpet.

It is strange that this is at least the 2nd time you have attempted to discredit my post and instead have confirmed it.

Pride has a way of reversing things, sometimes.


Nice work, Brother.

What was that word you used ?


Oh, yes, I remember now it was... Kaboom ! (That would be a loud bubble!)


Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


No, Brother, the trumpet will make a different sound when the 7th trumpet sounds to begin the resurrection of the dead, on the last day.

Old Jack

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did anyone watch the video in my earlier post?

I'd like to hear from any who did.

Your post sounds like the script from one of those Kirk Cameron films. It doesn't sound even remotely biblical.

Watch the following video from youtube; you might want to copy the url and open it in a browser window so you can adjust the definition to 720p or 1080p. It may be informative and interesting for you.
After the Tribulation (Full Movie) - Alex Jones - YouTube
I do not endorse the views expressed in it but it makes some very telling points about the kind of eschatology your post reflects.

 

[BABerean2]

I have seen the movie. It is very good overall. The only difference I had with Pastor Anderson is that he seems to be promoting a mid-trib gathering. However, I would highly recommend it to all who have not seen it. It would be well worth your time. Both of the pastors in the movie made excellent use of scripture to validate their viewpoint.

 

[miamited]

First of all, we both tend to agree that the 70th week of Daniel is a full 7 year time frame.we both agree that the antichrist confirms the peace accord in the beginning and breaks it in the middle . I believe that Christians will not be on earth during that time; you believe they will be on the earth.I believe that Christian believers will be kept from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole earth. Rev 3:10. We are also looking for Jesus Christ , not the antichrist . Titus 2:13 states, " waiting for our blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and savior Jesus Christ." ESV . 1 thess 1:10, " And to wait for His son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivered us from the wrath to come". These are a couple of pre tribulation verses that are contained in the scripture .

Then you don't believe Paul's words? Paul wrote to the Thessalonians:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,...

You don't think this is a direct and sure reference to the day of rapture?

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Does Paul not clearly say that the day (the day of rapture) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed? If you believe these words of Paul mean pretty much exactly what they say, then how be it, that you can say that the rapture will come before these two events that Paul wrote of occur?

Yes, I do agree that the final 'seven' is not likely to be any different in its span of time than any of the other 69 'sevens'.

Yes, I agree that we are not 'waiting' on the Antichrist in anticipation of receiving any good thing from his hands, but Paul seems to be writing fairly clearly to me that he will have been revealed to us before the rapture comes. Was he not writing to believers? Is it your interpretation that he was telling us that all the rest of the world would see him revealed but not the believers? Why would he warn believers of something which he knew they would never see? That seems to me to be a pretty worthless warning. Why would he instruct them on the timing of the rapture with a 'sign' that they would never see? And how are they going to be raptured before the man of lawlessness is revealed and the day of rebellion comes, if the rapture is not going to come until after these two signs that they would never see? Can you offer up some reasonable explanation for this odd interpretation?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[dfw69]

Rapture before the wrath - NOPE.
Will Christians have to live and die during the Tribulation - YUP.
Are the Christians of the Western world any more special than Christians in every other part of the world who are dying today or have died by the millions in the past - NOPE.
Is the Rapture, at least until after the return of Jesus Christ, going to happen - NOPE.

The persecutions and tribulations of today are not the wrath of God...the promise to save the church is not from tribulations...Jesus said the kingdom of heaven suffers tribulation...but woe to that man by whom persecution comes...there has been many tribulations past present and future...

The promise of the rapture is a promise to save the church from the horrors of the wrath of God........that those church members that remain in the faith when the rapture takes place will not be subject to the wrath of God which is poured without mixture upon the earth in the last days.....

So yes...Rapture before wrath

 

[BABerean2]

The persecutions and tribulations of today are not the wrath of God...the promise to save the church is not from tribulations...Jesus said the kingdom of heaven suffers tribulation...but woe to that man by whom persecution comes...there has been many tribulations past present and future...

The promise of the rapture is a promise to save the church from the horrors of the wrath of God........that those church members that remain in the faith when the rapture takes place will not be subject to the wrath of God which is poured without mixture upon the earth in the last days.....

So yes...Rapture before wrath

Revelation 12:12 makes it clear that the trib is the wrath of Satan.

God's wrath is poured out on unbelievers after we are gathered on the last day of the trib. (John chapter 6) "I will raise him up at the last day."

Christ returns in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know him.
2nd Thess. chapter 1.

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[MoreCoffee]

I have seen the movie. It is very good overall. The only difference I had with Pastor Anderson is that he seems to be promoting a mid-trib gathering. However, I would highly recommend it to all who have not seen it. It would be well worth your time. Both of the pastors in the movie made excellent use of scripture to validate their viewpoint.

I thought the film suggested a post tribulation whatever ... not sure if they were about the kind of rapture that the Kirk Cameron films depicted. But I am glad somebody watched it

 

[bibletruth469]

Did anyone watch the video in my earlier post? I'd like to hear from any who did.

I did see the movie . He was very persuasive , however he had some problems with his view. For one , he seems to believe that the coming of the son of man will be after the horrible tribulation , however believers will not experience the trumpets, vials and bowls, wrath of God. This is contradictory. He also believes in the pre wrath view which in itself has some problems. Clearly Matthew 24:29-31 is at the very end of the tribulation period. The 1 thess 4 passage reads totally different in the scripture . They can not be the same event because of the reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread. He also divides the book of revelation into a first half and a second half. He mentions that the 2nd half starts at revelation 12. This theory does not work because both sides of the book mention very different things. I do not agree with his view and it contains other problems also.

 

[bibletruth469]

Then you don't believe Paul's words? Paul wrote to the Thessalonians: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,... You don't think this is a direct and sure reference to the day of rapture? Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. Does Paul not clearly say that the day (the day of rapture) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed? If you believe these words of Paul mean pretty much exactly what they say, then how be it, that you can say that the rapture will come before these two events that Paul wrote of occur? Yes, I do agree that the final 'seven' is not likely to be any different in its span of time than any of the other 69 'sevens'. Yes, I agree that we are not 'waiting' on the Antichrist in anticipation of receiving any good thing from his hands, but Paul seems to be writing fairly clearly to me that he will have been revealed to us before the rapture comes. Was he not writing to believers? Is it your interpretation that he was telling us that all the rest of the world would see him revealed but not the believers? Why would he warn believers of something which he knew they would never see? That seems to me to be a pretty worthless warning. Why would he instruct them on the timing of the rapture with a 'sign' that they would never see? And how are they going to be raptured before the man of lawlessness is revealed and the day of rebellion comes, if the rapture is not going to come until after these two signs that they would never see? Can you offer up some reasonable explanation for this odd interpretation? God bless you. In Christ, Ted

There are millions of saints who will come to know The Lord after the rapture . These are the tribulation saints mentioned in rev 7, the great multitude . They are not part of the church .

I disagree with your view in 2 thess 2:3. I believe that the ' falling away' actually in the rapture in this verse. I have no time to explain why right now. But I will in another post.

Yes, he is speaking to believers !

 

[MoreCoffee]

I did see the movie . He was very persuasive , however he had some problems with his view. For one , he seems to believe that the coming of the son of man will be after the horrible tribulation , however believers will not experience the trumpets, vials and bowls, wrath of God.

That would be because the wrath of God is not the tribulation. The tribulation is about what people do to other people, specifically what the wicked do to the faithful. Wrath is about what God does in judgement of the world. The two are different things using different words.

This is contradictory. He also believes in the pre wrath view which in itself has some problems. Clearly Matthew 24:29-31 is at the very end of the tribulation period. The 1 thess 4 passage reads totally different in the scripture.

If I recall correctly the first Thessalonians chapter four passage speaks about the tribulation not about the wrath of God. The link between the passage in Matthew is the coming of the Lord with the sound of a trumpet - which is obviously not a secret coming if it is so noisy.

They can not be the same event because of the reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread. He also divides the book of revelation into a first half and a second half. He mentions that the 2nd half starts at revelation 12. This theory does not work because both sides of the book mention very different things. I do not agree with his view and it contains other problems also.

I also do not agree with the millenarian views he expresses nor with the dispensational views that many hold in this thread. It's one of life's joys that Christ will return for his faithful people and that the wickedness of demons and men will come to an end.